Feedback for the leveling system

[Athin]

Hey all, 

 

First of all, I just want to congratulate the team on making this game as its one of the best games I've played and its the only game that my wife actually wants to play!  We are loving everything on this new release (City generation is amazing btw) and wanted to give some feedback on one of the main things that we both currently dislike. 

 

Currently, you are kind of shoehorn into certain playstyles with the current perk systems and it makes it really hard for us to divide our perks into things we need/want. If you want to be a medic, you're pushed to also use batons and turrets as your weapons.  If you want to be a miner, you are currently pushed to use clubs and farmers pushed to fist weapons ect.  While yes you can cross multiple attributes to get what you want, its discouraging to spend over 10 points into one attribute to just use one perk in that tree and leads to along of wasted points.  This also makes it very hard to work together as a team and divide skills with others as people tend to just overlap anyways.

 

What I think would work wonders is re-working the current system into four categories.  Combat, Survival, Crafting, Savaging.   Each one should have every aspect broken down into its own category so this can allow players to really specialize into their own fields freely. This also can make tools useful for weapons too if they specialize in it. This can give players alot more freedom of choice while also promoting teamwork.  This also helps the massive jumps some perks currently give (Ex Miner 69 gives all your tools a buff plus crafting ability so its basically a staple perk at this point)  For an example of some below

 

COMBAT TREE:  Every useable weapon (Including tools) will have their own perk for players to specialize in.   Below are some examples

 

Axe	Trait	Nailgun	Trait	Spear	Trait
Perk 1:	5% faster swing speed	Perk 1:	5% Damage	Perk 1	5% Damage
Perk 2:	10% Stamina Reduction	Perk 2	10% Bleeding Chance	Perk 2	5% Melee range
Perk 3:	10% Chance to bleed on power swing	Perk 3	20% damage to Bleeding Targest	Perk 3	25% throwing speed
Perk 4:	5% chance to knock down	Perk 4	Legs shots pins enemies down for 2 seconds	Perk 4	50% chance to knock down enemy when thrown
Perk 5:	10% Damage	Perk 5	20% damage to rooted enemies	Perk 5	10% damage
Perk 6:	5% chance to dismember	Perk 6	20% Bleeding Chance	Perk 6	25% damage to knocked down enemies
Perk 7:	25% more damage to knocked down enemies	Perk 7	15% damange to Bleeding Enemies	Perk 7	10% chacne to dismember target when thrown
Perk 8:	10% Faster Swing Speed	Perk 8	25% Clip Size	Perk 8	15% stamina reduction
Perk 9:	10% Damage	Perk 9	20% Reload Speed	Perk 9	50% Chance to knock down enemies when thrown
Perk 10:	Power swings no longer stop stamina regen	Perk 10	20% Chance to not use an Nail when shooting	Perk 10	Deal damage when grabbing a thrown spear in an enemy

 

 

Survival Tree: Everything that deals with health, hunger, thirst and diseases
 

Tracking		Medic
Perk 1	Can track small animals	Perk 1	Heal for 10% more
Perk 2	Can locate birds nest	Perk 2	Items cure for 10% more
Perk 3	Can attract small animals when tracking	Perk 3	Wounds heal 10% faster after treatment
Perk 4	Can track medium animals	Perk 4	You heal for halve of the value when healing others
Perk 5	Can sneak up to animals easier	Perk 5	Heal for 20% more
Perk 6	Deal double damage to animals while tracking	Perk 6	Items cure for 20% More
Perk 7	Can now track large animals	Perk 7	Wounds heal 20% faster after treatment
Perk 8	Can now track undead animals	Perk 8	Normal bandages now heal you for 5 health when used
Perk 9	Animals will no longer detect you while sneaking	Perk 9	You heal for the same amount when healing others
Perk 10	Alive animals no longer attack you	Perk 10	10% chance to not use a health item

 

Crafting:  Everything that deals with creating things.  Each workstation can be its own category which each tool/armor as other categories too.  

 

Forge
Perk 1	Smelt items 10% Faster
Perk 2	Use 10% less resources
Perk 3	Generates 10% Less Heat
Perk 4	Fuel last 10% Longer
Perk 5	Craft 20% Faster
Perk 6	Smelt 20% Faster
Perk 7	Generate 10% less Heat
Perk 8	Craft 20% Faster
Perk 9	Fuel Last 20% Longer
Perk 10	5% chance to craft two items

 

Savaging: Everything to deal with looting exploring and questing

 

Lucky Looter
Perk 1	Find 5% more basic resources
Perk 2	Find 5% more food items
Perk 3	Find 5% more Medicine Items
Perk 4	Find 5% more weapons/Ammo
Perk 5	25% chance when finding items to be 1 quality higher
Perk 6	10% Chance to find Mods
Perk 7	10% Chance to find books
Perk 8	15% more food
Perk 9	15% more Medicine
Perk 10	5% Chance to find double loot

 

This system lets every point mean something and players can start working towards the character they want to play as rather then throwing X amount of points into a category to just be able to farm some potatoes. 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I do have points in physican, advanced engineering and grease monky in the INT tree, but i don´t use batons and turrets. The idea of builds that only invest heavily in one attribute and neglect all the others besides a few points here and there  isn´t working very well in this game.

 

Spread your points, I do get at least 5 points in every attribute. I use Clubs, bow/crossbow and machineguns as well as explosives.

 

Except for maybe INT if you can´t find the crucible schematics and don´t want to invest points in better barter to be able to buy it, you really don´t need anyhting maxed out. I do play on survivalist difficulty and i can survive without any attribute leveld to 10 in single player. It´s really not necessary. .

 

That said, i sometimes do get 10 STR using the +1 from the cigar, but usually very late and only in MP, where i don´t need to put points into attributes that are covered by someone else. 

 

I do like your concept though. But that would need a difficulty boost overall as you can level skills way faster than now. 

 

And a small advice as you said getting fortitude just for farming: Get points in iron gut. All effects from consumables last longer. VERY usefull. You get way more for your points if you can take skills in every attribute at least a bit.

Edited December 26, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Athin]

That is my point though is that you are better spreading out everywhere wasting points in things you won't use.  If I'm using a knife with a pistol then every point in Strength is wasted even though I'm force to put points there to get stamina regen (or whatever perk in the strength tree).  Having each item have its own perk tree with 10 perks removes the feeling of wasted perks while not making someone extremely powerful at the start.

[Mahnogard]

You're assuming that people feel shoehorned due to their "needed" skill choices, but I really think that's just an early-game thing. Your build isn't dictated by your first 10 levels, or even your first 20. If you play long enough, you'll get to flesh your build out however you want. You just have to decide what your first priorities are. 

 

I have zero qualms with spreading out my points. I never feel that those points are wasted. If I spec into strength for mining and use bows for combat and need Intellect for workstations, well, those are all important to me. If I didn't want to put points in Intellect then I can find other ways of getting the workstations. Eventually. If I don't want to mine, then I buy or scavenge resources. If I don't want to farm, then I need to focus my looting and trading on food more than I would otherwise. 

 

One thing I love in this game is the RPG aspect (and yeah, I know some people don't.) Part of that is having to make those choices when you decide where to put your points. I guess I'm fortunate in that I adore clubs and bats and I also tend to do a lot of mining. I fell in love with bats early in A19 (after hundreds of hours thinking I "had" to use guns) and once I had my first burning shaft mod, there was no going back. BBQ Stick for life. But I also prefer to build my workstations instead of running the trader loop trying to get them, same for the turrets that I need for defending my base. I also love to farm (yes, even in A20, it's fine once you get there). So I will end up with points in almost everything but guns, really, and I won't regret a single point because it lets me do the things I want to do in the game. And I've never felt weakened by doing it. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Mahnogard
can't spell (see edit history)

[myrkana]

You can edit the amount of skill points you get per level. If you dont like the base amount of points do that. You can give youself 2 or 3 or even 5 per level and get everything you want. I think the base amount is fine for what they want to build. If your playstyle doesnt fit that they have left you the option to change that. Thats the best part of this game, if you dont like it you can change it

[Athin]

I'm not saying the current system is horrid or doesn't work, I just don't think its as good as it can be.  No matter how to slice it though, unless you use the weapons in the attributes category, those points are wasted. I agree that in the end it doesn't really matter too much in the current system but I also view that as a problem.  If the skill points are meaningless or weak enough to the point where it doesn't really matter how you spend them, then why even have them? 

 

I agree that I want more of the RPG feel to this as well which is why I like the idea of specializations for each type of item.  This can add several layers of character building and synergy that the current system is just lacking.  The most choices you have that have meaningful impacts to playstyle the better I say.   

[pApA^LeGBa]

8 hours ago, Athin said:

That is my point though is that you are better spreading out everywhere wasting points in things you won't use.  If I'm using a knife with a pistol then every point in Strength is wasted even though I'm force to put points there to get stamina regen (or whatever perk in the strength tree).  Having each item have its own perk tree with 10 perks removes the feeling of wasted perks while not making someone extremely powerful at the start.

 

You assume again that there is nothing else usefull in the strenght tree,  you need miner69er anyways even if you are not the miner it is a good idea to put in a bit of points wich helps when going scavenging also, for breaking saves, walls and doors. Also you can help out mining if time is an issue to get enough ammo. Then there is packmule, masterchef and if you like heavy armor, it´s also in strenght.

 

Packmule is for exmample something i started to put points in the first time since introduced it, now that in A20 the armor pocket mods are super rare.

And i am pretty sure that TFP will make some changes until the final version of the game to make you spend points on  every attribute without regrets.

 

Your method would need a complete rebalance of the game. Otherwise you would have one fighter that can kill everything and a miner that can dig out tons of material within a few ingame hours on day 3. In the end you would need the same time/levels to get to the same skill set as you have in the current system to avoid super fast progression making the game too easy.

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Krougal]

See now I think pack mule is a complete waste of points. Eventually I will get pocket mods.

Once I have a vehicle encumberance isn't even an issue. The book that gives you no encumberance at night also seems to be super common for me, which really makes it a non-issue.

 

I still say make the attribute points cost 1 for all levels and make the skills more costly at higher levels, I'm no math genius but I'm sure it could be done in a way that the overall cost was the same. The attributes are of general usefulness and having to invest so many points into them doesn't really encourage one to mix and match because it is very inefficient. Unfortunately I've never even been able to get anyone to discuss it, even in A19 (or was it 18 even?) when the change to this @%$#e system was first made.

[pApA^LeGBa]

@KrougalWell i used to think the same about pack mule. And here i am on day 25, T5 quests going on and i have one single armor pocket mod. 2 points in pack mule it is. Really don´t wanna be encumbered in T5 POI´s with feral and radiated Z´s left, right and center. Running back and forth costs valuable time. I didn´t take it early on though, the T5 quests made me do it.

 

It changed from A16 to A17. And i don´t miss learning by doing. It was implemented very badly. I actually like the challenge of spending your points wisely instead of just spamming a skill to get better.

 

I am widespread with my points but far from ineffective tbh. It´s all a matter of when you put how many points into a skill/attribute

Edited December 26, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Krougal]

I never said ineffective, I said inefficient. I have done both. A19 I ran a pretty pure agility build. Right now I am spread, although more str/int focus, but there are skills from all stats I use, even though some will never get more than a couple points.

 

Now advanced engineering is generally another waste of points (that I am heavily invested into) since of course I've found all the things for it here on day 22 (even a bunch of crucibles for sale) and while less materials sounds great, I've already got such a large stock of materials that it doesn't really matter. Granted I've got high motherlode. I like rushing an early forge (especially now that all spawned workstations are broken) but multiple points was stupid.

Well, I take that back, it was a waste for me cause it isn't suiting my current playstyle. The 50% xp bonus on trap kills is huge if you are capitalizing on that. I really don't like the stun baton or relying on turrets/traps, so int is not my preferred tree, other than the bartering/daring adventurer. I don't know if leveling the drone (even though I love the drone, the drone is awesome) really has any value, since it doesn't fight or seem to get hit.

 

Learn by spamming sucked yeah, even though a lot of people liked it. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by Krougal (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

You seem to be very lucky, no need for pack mule, no need for advanced engineering (wich is really no big deal, seeing you have points in INT already, otherwise you wouldn´t be able to buy a crucible, needs at least 3 points in better barter, might even be 4 since A20). I simply take advanced engineering for the trap xp already and ofc for the materials, simply saves some time when mining.  Now would i play 8 zombies on bloodmoon and a 7 day range i wouldn´t need traps and had more time for mining. Having 32 and every 4 days i do need them both.

Edited December 26, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, Athin said:

I'm not saying the current system is horrid or doesn't work, I just don't think its as good as it can be.  No matter how to slice it though, unless you use the weapons in the attributes category, those points are wasted. I agree that in the end it doesn't really matter too much in the current system but I also view that as a problem.  If the skill points are meaningless or weak enough to the point where it doesn't really matter how you spend them, then why even have them? 

 

I agree that I want more of the RPG feel to this as well which is why I like the idea of specializations for each type of item.  This can add several layers of character building and synergy that the current system is just lacking.  The most choices you have that have meaningful impacts to playstyle the better I say.   

 

If you want to see an implementation of your system at work, just change to 7D2D alpha17 and play that. If my memory is not totally borked A17 had all gun perks in perception, all melee perks in strength, and so on. But you still wanted some perks in other trees and had to invest in ALL of them.

 

I think this system now is totally RPG. You have a class system that reminds me how the skills work in Ad&D or pathfinder. You have class skills which start at 4 (with just one point investment) and skills of other classes need 4 points investment to reach the same level. Midgard also has skills of other classes more expensive. And I know there was some computer RPG system where skills of other classes were simply at double cost. All those systems are slightly different, but they all make you pay more for the skills outside your chosen class.

 

And all those systems have the same result, you will usually specialize into your class skills/perks and try to put just enough points into non-class skills to make them useful but generally not perfect them. I don't see a problem in investing a few points into strength itself as an entry cost to get some strength perks up to 2 or even 3. With 3 levels in any perk you are already what an RPG would call highly proficient.

 

 

 

[JCrook1028]

2 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

And here i am on day 25, T5 quests going on and i have one single armor pocket mod.

You do realize they can be made Day 1 right?

[Krougal]

27 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

You do realize they can be made Day 1 right?

You're thinking of the clothing pocket mod. The double pocket clothing all 3 armor pockets need schematics.

[pApA^LeGBa]

47 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

You do realize they can be made Day 1 right?

 

The ones i can make on day one are already crafted ofc. Those are clothing pocket mods. The single slot doesn´t need a recipce and give you 3 slots max. overall. That´s not enough.

 

I still need to find Needle and thread 7 for the double ones and any more armor pocket mod, except the one single armor pocket mod, or recipe for it. Hence why i put 2 points in pack mule. That never happened before A20. 

 

I assume we will see ourselves putting points in more skills we never used before in the future with upcoming versions of the game as balancing goes further every step.

Edited December 26, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Krougal]

It's not like they did any balancing on skills from A19 to A20, you're just having bad luck this run.

I've made a few playthroughs and I generally find the book, armor schematics and/or mods. Now I haven't been maxed out, but I'll generally have a fair amount,  and I am typically encumbered most of the time, not having issues with stamina, but mods and settings may be throwing the balance off and making it easier for me. I am doing 64 zeds on BM though.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Krougal They didn´t balance skills, that is true. The loot however is way different. Mods and their recipes are much rarer now. Still no iron breaker for example. Or polymer string mod for the bow/crossbow. And a few others i usually had at my current level. My chest for mods, is empty af. It used to be filled to two thirds at that point.

 

I didn´t change my playstyle. I go looting 24/7 if i don´t need to mine, craft or build/repair the horde base. I visit the traders regulary.

 

That´s why i need points in pack mule now. Not because the skills changed but because the loot did. .

Edited December 27, 2021 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Krougal They didn´t balance skills, that is true. The loot however is way different. Mods and their recipes are much rarer now. Still no iron breaker for example. Or polymer string mod for the bow/crossbow. And a few others i usually had at my current level. My chest for mods, is empty af. It used to be filled to two thirds at that point.

 

I didn´t change my playstyle. I go looting 24/7 if i don´t need to mine, craft or build/repair the horde base. I visit the traders regulary.

 

That´s why i need points in pack mule now. Not because the skills changed but because the loot did. .

So wierd. I've had multiple iron breaker all 3 plays and we're only talking level 50. In fact my current is the first I made it to t5 quests (but I made t4 on the others), just now on the morning of the 28th. Poly string too. I think I've seen most all of the mods (although not all in 1 game yet), so right now I'm missing a handful but I have most I want for weapons, armor is a bit lacking, but then I usually don't have all the armor mods I want until late game unless I've been lucky with schematics.

 

I mean we're questing at about the same rate unless you are on a later game date than I am. I usually double tap the POI but I haven't otherwise gone out looting non-quest POIs much. Done very little mining. Now I did max DA and barter, which may have helped a bit. I have no mods to the loot tables either (oh, except eggs in fridge, and I have yet to find a single egg in a fridge lol)