Diehard Alpha 16 player likes Alpha 20

[~Kevin~]

Alpha 16 is the best Alpha so far, but 20 is pretty good.  I wish the developers would bring back passive skills rather than everything having to go through the skill tree.  Graphics in 20 are good, gameplay is good, but I dislike getting motors from cars at day 5.  I feel getting the wrench at day 3 or 4  is giving too much too fast.  It feels like the developers are giving to much to the player too fast rather than making the player wait for items.  Also, requiring 3 skill points on the skill tree is a bit much.  Rather than upping the skill tree how about making to core game harder?  I miss the roaming hoards during the middle of the day.

 

Alpha 20 is good, but I see myself going back to Alpha 16 in a month or so.  20 does not have that greatness that 16 has.

[Snowydeath]

You realize the game is RNG and you getting anything is pretty much luck right? And no, LBD is a god awful mechanic and needs to stay away as it causes nothing but tedium and boring "craft forever to get better but don't enjoy the game until then" gameplay, hence why it was removed. A vast majority of people don't wanna be forced to constantly waste resources just to level 1 skill up for it to be viable. There was a reason they removed it and said it will never return (unless you use mods of course, then go ahead!) I'm not trying to be a sour pus but I really don't care for LBD mechanics in my survival RPG games, it only works well in MMOs and ARPGs/JRPGs

[Viktoriusiii]

Not this again. We all know "LBD leads to spamcrafting" has been disproven like... thousands of times. You can't fault a great mechanic for faulty implementation.
But it is not coming back, so lets not argue about it anymore.
It was superior in every way, TFPs didn't like it, end of discussion (and yes this was intentionally passive agressive And I will never not be)

[bdubyah]

Being honest, but some hybrid of the current and old LBD system would be best to me. But it isn't gonna happen.

 

I've only played maybe an hour or so of a20 now, and loot does feel a bit too easy. But it's only been one game so I don't know yet if it was just good RNG so far or if it's the new normal. The little trash piles having 30+ of cement, cobble, wood, etc seems a bit too much. Another one had almost 10 cans and another had 7 lead trophies. That seems a bit too much to me. I shouldn't be able to go around just looting trash piles and surviving.

[~Kevin~]

21 hours ago, Snowydeath said:

You realize the game is RNG and you getting anything is pretty much luck right? And no, LBD is a god awful mechanic 

I have no idea what RNG or LBD is.  Please define acronyms before you use them.  I only visit this forum every few years, last time I posted was January a year ago.  I will come in post a thread, maybe a couple of replies and will not come back until the next alpha is released.

 

19 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Not this again. We all know "LBD leads to spamcrafting" has been disproven like... thousands of times. You can't fault a great mechanic for faulty implementation.
But it is not coming back, so lets not argue about it anymore.
It was superior in every way, TFPs didn't like it, end of discussion (and yes this was intentionally passive agressive And I will never not be)

 

What is spam crafting?

 

Quote

But it is not coming back, so lets not argue about it anymore.

 

There is no arguing, I am a paying customer who is voicing his opinion about a product he bought.  I wish some of the passive skills would come back.

 

I only have a few hours in Alpha 20, it seems like a good version, but still not as good as 16.  That said I will give it a decent try.

 

I will visit here a couple of more times to check replies, but I will probably not be back for another year or so.

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, ~Kevin~ said:

RNG or LBD is.  Please define acronyms

RNG is Random Number Generator. The sentence it was used in is a bit off for using it like that, but the acronym has taken on a meaning "something to do with randomness"; what they meant to say is in the latter part of the sentence.. "it's luck based".

LBD is Learn By Doing .. it's a pretty well trodden argument on these forums, essentially it is what you referred to as "passive skills."

[Viktoriusiii]

5 hours ago, ~Kevin~ said:

I have no idea what RNG or LBD is.  Please define acronyms before you use them.  I only visit this forum every few years, last time I posted was January a year ago.  I will come in post a thread, maybe a couple of replies and will not come back until the next alpha is released.

 

 

What is spam crafting?

 

 

There is no arguing, I am a paying customer who is voicing his opinion about a product he bought.  I wish some of the passive skills would come back.

You have not been here a lot since A17 released, have you

LBD (learning by doing) was the system pre A17. You were learning skills by doing them.
So you fought with a sledgehammer? Sledgehammer skill went up. You were hit by a zombie while wearing heavy armor? Heavy armor skill went up.

The problem was, that there were a lot of exploits that TFPs(The Fun Pimps) didn't fix.
Like you could endlessly craft tools to level them. So everyone just stood therein the night crafting stoneaxes all night. (called spam crafting)
Or you could stand next to a cactus getting 1dps while leveling your armor rating pretty fast. (actually they did start to fix some of these exploits in A16 but the arguments were still about the now nonexistent spamcrafting)

These exploits were used as arguments against LBD. They are bad arguments, but as madmole (one of the founders of TFPs) has stated: "He will die on that hill!"
So we don't even need to bring it up anymore. Sure you can. But this will be feedback that they will not listen to anymore.

[Kyonshi]

Of course those who like LBD will say it was the best thing ever existing since sliced bread and that arguments against it are all invalid... what a surprise.

 

I played Darkness Falls, who still has this feature, and although i did enjoy it, used it legit and without spamcrafting, i can see why it wasnt something viable from the Pimps standpoint and this is where we have to look. Spamcrafting is one of the reason and no matter what people will say, the devs didnt want to see this. And even if 99 players out of 100 use the mechanic properly, the Pimps wouldnt want to see 1 person abusing it and its still the most legitimate reason.

 

Morrowind and Oblivion had this system too and it was removed in Skyrim, for the same reasons : spamcrafting and spamskilling. On paper, im the first to say it looks fun and cool, but in execution, its far from being a perfect feature. Its way less of a hassle for the devs to adopt a skill system like we have now than to try to circumvent all possible exploits. From two problems, you choose the lesser.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Kyonshi (see edit history)

[Urban Blackbear]

Ah yes TES:Oblivion. Where you could put a basket over an innkeeper's head and sneak aroudn them in circles for 30 mins to max your sneak skill. I also blame that game for everyone's habit of bunny-hopping through games. LBD is not a good system. As stated it just leads to grinding skills or lagging behind.

[~Kevin~]

On 12/14/2021 at 8:28 AM, Kyonshi said:

Of course those who like LBD will say it was the best thing ever existing since sliced bread and that arguments against it are all invalid... what a surprise.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with giving the customer what they want.  I play 7 days to die in single player, and do not use exploits.   But lets say I did use exploits in single player, so what?  There is no need to remove a feature someone likes because someone else does not like it. 

 

On 12/14/2021 at 12:25 AM, Viktoriusiii said:

You have not been here a lot since A17 released, have you

LBD (learning by doing) was the system pre A17. You were learning skills by doing them.
 

 

Only when a new Alpha comes out and I come here to voice my opinion.

 

I do not know what happened but my 7 days to die was reset to Alpha 16.  I was playing Alpha 20, having a good time, posted here a couple of times, started the game after I got home from work this evening, and it was alpha 16.  I did not revert the game to alpha 16 either.  Makes me wonder if someone said if you like Alpha 16, then go play 16 and changed settings on my game.  I am the only person who uses this computer, all of my kids are grown and out of the house, and my wife has her own system.   Nobody even knows my password to get into this system, so how did the game get reverted to A 16?

[Viktoriusiii]

On 12/14/2021 at 3:28 PM, Kyonshi said:

I played Darkness Falls, who still has this feature, and although i did enjoy it, used it legit and without spamcrafting, i can see why it wasnt something viable from the Pimps standpoint and this is where we have to look. Spamcrafting is one of the reason and no matter what people will say, the devs didnt want to see this. And even if 99 players out of 100 use the mechanic properly, the Pimps wouldnt want to see 1 person abusing it and its still the most legitimate reason.

NOBODY liked spamcrafting. That was never the argument.
Just because A15 allowed it, doesn'T mean that it is an essential part of LBD.
A16 already removed spamcrafting if you remember, by implementing a mixed system.

And it was perfect. Crafting should not be levelable by spamming (I proposed I think 3-4 different solutions to this problem, all are very easy to do)
And exploits like the cactus needed to be fixed.


Rant incoming. Please ignore.

Once exploits and bugs and the like would have been fixed, it WOULD be a better mechanic.

If we remove crafting from skyrim (so alchemy, smithing and artifacts), how do you justify saying that the leveling mechanics of fallout were more fun than the ones in Skyrim?
Skyrim did exactly what I asked TFPs to do:
they removed exploits(except for crafting) and boring mechanics that were in oblivion and made the system work.


It is such a unique and rewarding system and I am tired of people that do not understand it saying that spamcrafting was the reason it was bad, when it was never the design but an exploit