The AI need to evolve in order for this game to survive.

[meganoth]

14 minutes ago, NyLocke said:

 When I am looting a POI and I sneak into a large room, clear the zombies and proceed to loot, I don't personally appreciate it when 4 zombies then drop from three stories up, get up and chase me like nothing happened. If the game was as hard on them as it is on the player, then when they dropped from that height, they would break a leg, and not be able to sprint. It would be interesting if, when zombies drop from such great heights, they become crawlers on impact.

 

Sorry for picking just a tiny part of your post and commenting only on that, but this is where I have to inject some comment:

The player himself is able to drop from great heights and instantly run away like nothing happened. He even got 4 ways to achieve that: a shoe armor mod, the parkour perk, a book plus 5000 dukes in his inventory and a candy.

 

[Boidster]

On 7/12/2020 at 3:11 AM, NyLocke said:

Hello everyone. Let me just begin my response by saying, respectfully, OP's argument is so ridiculous it's borderline parody. So mind-numbingly ridiculous in fact that I felt I needed to get up from my bed, power on my PC, create my account

I for one would like to commend you for staying true to the bit. I thought maybe the abrasive and insulting language might just have been an attempt to make an entrance here and sort of piddle on a tree to stake out some territory, but all 5 posts of yours so far have been remarkably consistent. Just kinda spraying it all around. Thanks for making these forums a less-hospitable place. Unfortunately, you're trying to piss all over veterans of the game, and people who have contributed a great deal to the community. It makes it hard to support you when even your reasonable ideas are couched in vitriol. Consider dialing it back a bit.

[Dracula]

14 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I think this is deliberate because at least before the variable block/shape menues were implemented they would have totally cluttered the crafting menue. Also those blocks are to make the POIs look pre-apocalypse, so a survivor would not necessarily have access to them. The third problem is that some of the decorative blocks could be used for even more AI exploits. So it keeps Fataals job easier.

 

Now, with the variable block/shape menues more of them might get added, who knows. But last I heard MM thinks if people want decorative stuff, they should just go into creative menue, he is using it for the same purpose.

 

 

 

I can accept that for the first part; hoping that changes come, but there are still a few examples that don't make sense.  Most notably is that I can craft a scrap iron table, but not a wooden table.  A wooden table is less advanced than a scrap table and doesn't require ability to produce above that used for a wooden frame.

 

The second part I take serious issue with; sure, there are slight workarounds like building things out of cobblestone and painting them to look like bricks, but if I can scavenge a door knob and build a table saw, why can't I have a recipe for a paneled door that uses a door knob?  It makes more sense than being able to craft a vault door.

 

I could go through this on an item-by-item basis; but, I believe that my point stands in that the craftable items are very biased towards survival instead of decorative and that's a problem in a crafting-focused game.  It eliminates the activity of taking a POI and rebuilding it after you've cleared it.  As such, unless you have respawning supplies, there's no reason to not tear down every single POI after looting it and reducing it to nothing.  Before the reduction in craftable blocks, it gave the game the additional aspect of rebuilding the small selection of houses and using them as a sort-of "Survivors Camp" setting for multiplayer games and, with multiplayer, you can't control what others do when everything is available.

[NyLocke]

7 hours ago, alanea said:

actually wrong several people asked in this topic to make conrete indestructible....

Yes, SOME people might want that, but most who commented were not saying this at all. You are generalizing as if everyone here were complaining that concrete should be indestructible, which they are not. At least Jugg has the decency to acknowledge that it's a small group of people asking for that. So it is a waste of time for you to write a small paragraph making fun of a handful of people and pretending those people speak for everyone (like you seem to have done for most of this thread), don't you think?

8 hours ago, alanea said:

and where he said 7 days isnt survival game ?

I never said that he said that 7 Days to Die wasn't a survival game, please quote me where I do. There you go twisting peoples words again so you can write a 30 chapter novel response to something they didn't say. If you didn't understand why I responded to his comment then, then I'm certainly not gonna waste any time explaining it to you now.

8 hours ago, alanea said:

problem is  it fits  familiar zombie archetype .... just some people seen one zombie series  and talk like expert  while theres  actrually more fast / smart zombie universes around that dumb/slow ones:D walking dead just made  " slow zombies popular lately

You clearly love your zombie lore, and you seem to have quite the zombie beastarium at your disposal. However, different games and different movies use whichever variation of zombie makes the most sense for that universe. One frequent argument that I have seen you make several times in this thread when anyone has any complaint about the zombie AI is you always bring up the Walking Dead and how they are not the authority on what a zombie should be. But the problem is that you are the only one who brings up the Walking Dead. Actually, I could be wrong about that, as I haven't read every single comment. The point is, there are certain aspects of the 7DtD zombies that don't make a lot of sense (IMO) for the type of game that 7DtD is. The devs will ultimately decide what direction they take their zombies in, and it is anyone's guess what the final result will look like. But if it helps you understand where some people are coming from, I assume you've seen the movie "I am Legend?"

 

Imagine for a moment that you replaced the zombies from I am Legend with the ones we have in 7 Days to Die. It would totally change what type of movie that was. It would mess with the theme. The movie, in my opinion, would not be a very good movie (Although, I wouldn't say no to watching it if it was made). 7 Days to Die zombies would not fit in to that universe. What I am saying, and this is just my opinion, is that some of the behaviors that the zombies have now don't play well with the survival aspects of the game. At the same time, I admit that they would fit in more if 7DtD was less survival and more tower defense, but that is the line the devs are always working to balance.

[NyLocke]

34 minutes ago, Boidster said:

It makes it hard to support you when even your reasonable ideas are couched in vitriol

I'm flattered that you've taken such an interest in my style as to go through my post history to form an accurate opinion of me. Believe it or not, it's not my intention to be so aggressive. You may not have noticed, but those comments you consider to be 'vitriolic' have been in response to people whose own comments contained some kind of condescension or needless arrogance. My issue is that rather than ignore those kinds of comments, as I'm sure you'd like me to, I choose to respond to them in kind.

 

I am capable of responding to people in a civilized manner as I have done to one other person on this thread. And please, I assure you that the very thought of coming into this forum and being sassy for the sake of "staking out territory" is a disgusting thought, and one you should have thought twice before responding with. I have seen some very good responses in this thread, and my respect does go out to those who can contribute to the conversation without resorting to name-calling. But for those who can't, I am only too happy to speak their language.

 

Lastly, if the people who I've been responding to, which have been 2 by my count (the sassy comments) are your decorated veterans who have contributed so much to the game, then one new guy with a big mouth is the least of your problems. Respect is earned, whether in the outside world or the virtual one. Toxic people do not deserve respect. I don't care how much they've "contributed." I don't believe I've been particularly out of line with any of my comments, beyond mild sassiness.

 

You sound like a reasonable person, and I'm sorry if my first impression was a nasty one, but it seems odd that you would target me for the content of my comments when there has been plenty of nastiness elsewhere on this thread of which I am not responsible.

 

[NyLocke]

47 minutes ago, meganoth said:

He even got 4 ways to achieve that: a shoe armor mod, the parkour perk, a book plus 5000 dukes in his inventory and a candy.

The Impact Bracing mod is one of my essentials when I play, I feel naked without it! I do believe there is also a book that negates fall damage when sneaking at night, with some restrictions. Can't remember exactly what the conditions are, but you are right, there are several ways to negate fall damage for the player. Still, as of now, I don't think the zombies have any kind of debuffs applied when they fall from considerable heights. I would like to see something added eventually that leads to dismembered legs, or sprint cool downs for the zombies.

 

The way they fumble now when breaking through doors, or even from great heights gives me hope this is something they plan on expanding at some point.

[Dracula]

5 minutes ago, NyLocke said:

I'm flattered that you've taken such an interest in my style as to go through my post history to form an accurate opinion of me. Believe it or not, it's not my intention to be so aggressive. You may not have noticed, but those comments you consider to be 'vitriolic' have been in response to people whose own comments contained some kind of condescension or needless arrogance. My issue is that rather than ignore those kinds of comments, as I'm sure you'd like me to, I choose to respond to them in kind.

 

I am capable of responding to people in a civilized manner as I have done to one other person on this thread. And please, I assure you that the very thought of coming into this forum and being sassy for the sake of "staking out territory" is a disgusting thought, and one you should have thought twice before responding with. I have seen some very good responses in this thread, and my respect does go out to those who can contribute to the conversation without resorting to name-calling. But for those who can't, I am only too happy to speak their language.

 

Lastly, if the people who I've been responding to, which have been 2 by my count (the sassy comments) are your decorated veterans who have contributed so much to the game, then one new guy with a big mouth is the least of your problems. Respect is earned, whether in the outside world or the virtual one. Toxic people do not deserve respect. I don't care how much they've "contributed." I don't believe I've been particularly out of line with any of my comments, beyond mild sassiness.

 

You sound like a reasonable person, and I'm sorry if my first impression was a nasty one, but it seems odd that you would target me for the content of my comments when there has been plenty of nastiness elsewhere on this thread of which I am not responsible.

I've found that there's a bit of a problem with a "get good" answer being SOP for the forum whenever someone complains about a problem posed by something as well as "adapt your playing style" like I've gotten when I criticized vultures for being annoying.  It's not that they kill me; it's that they provide an annoying interruption to my gameplay.  I've also been told that I spec'd my character wrong; but, seeing as this is my first playthrough, and I haven't figured exactly how this new leveling system works and what has changed, I imagine that many others will also have this problem.

 

A lot of people go out of their way to argue your play style instead of the mechanics.  I play with a crafting focus and, as such, I've had issues in the game direction since A16; digging zombies and the farm plots being such things.

 

You may have better luck if you explicitly spell out your points; even then, expect to be misinterpreted and have people misinterpret the context.  I've found that if I slog on and try to explain exactly where the point I'm making stems from it has better results.

 

This forum is a harsh place.

[meganoth]

38 minutes ago, Dracula said:

I can accept that for the first part; hoping that changes come, but there are still a few examples that don't make sense.  Most notably is that I can craft a scrap iron table, but not a wooden table.  A wooden table is less advanced than a scrap table and doesn't require ability to produce above that used for a wooden frame.

 

The second part I take serious issue with; sure, there are slight workarounds like building things out of cobblestone and painting them to look like bricks, but if I can scavenge a door knob and build a table saw, why can't I have a recipe for a paneled door that uses a door knob?  It makes more sense than being able to craft a vault door.

 

I could go through this on an item-by-item basis; but, I believe that my point stands in that the craftable items are very biased towards survival instead of decorative and that's a problem in a crafting-focused game.  It eliminates the activity of taking a POI and rebuilding it after you've cleared it.  As such, unless you have respawning supplies, there's no reason to not tear down every single POI after looting it and reducing it to nothing.  Before the reduction in craftable blocks, it gave the game the additional aspect of rebuilding the small selection of houses and using them as a sort-of "Survivors Camp" setting for multiplayer games and, with multiplayer, you can't control what others do when everything is available.

They don't make sense because this is a slice in the middle of development. If you had asked MM about the wooden table, he might say "Huh, I thought it was already in" or "We're coming to that, work in progress" or "Wait, you can craft a scrap iron table? That was never intended". Every of these responses is authentic MM. 😉.

 

You are certainly right that the crafting focus is on survival. I never disputed or even commented on that.

There was this idea MM once talked about (in the time between A18 and A19) to allow scrounging items from POIs to then place them in the base. Ok, not crafting, but at least decorating. One of the ideas that never lifted off the ground. So the topic isn't ignored but on the backburner. I'm sure though there will be further effort to add to and harmonize the multiblock tables at least.

 

3 minutes ago, NyLocke said:

The Impact Bracing mod is one of my essentials when I play, I feel naked without it! I do believe there is also a book that negates fall damage when sneaking at night, with some restrictions. Can't remember exactly what the conditions are, but you are right, there are several ways to negate fall damage for the player. Still, as of now, I don't think the zombies have any kind of debuffs applied when they fall from considerable heights. I would like to see something added eventually that leads to dismembered legs, or sprint cool downs for the zombies.

 

The way they fumble now when breaking through doors, or even from great heights gives me hope this is something they plan on expanding at some point.

When the zombies fall from great height they loose up to 1/3 of their hitpoints.

 

[NyLocke]

31 minutes ago, Dracula said:

I've found that there's a bit of a problem with a "get good" answer being SOP for the forum whenever someone complains about a problem posed by something as well as "adapt your playing style" like I've gotten when I criticized vultures for being annoying.  It's not that they kill me; it's that they provide an annoying interruption to my gameplay.  I've also been told that I spec'd my character wrong; but, seeing as this is my first playthrough, and I haven't figured exactly how this new leveling system works and what has changed, I imagine that many others will also have this problem.

The day Alpha 19 released, I was invited to play on a dedicated server with two people who have been playing this game across several years/alphas. Even they have noticed drastic changes with the release of a19, whether that be the new loot pool system or the rebalanced effectiveness of certain perks, or spec builds that were viable before which are less effective now. I started playing in alpha 18, but even I've noticed big changes. I can only imagine the shock they went through at first. This is such a small, silly thing to mention, but personally I was a big fan of them getting rid of the table saw and adding the ability to craft "advanced" shapes using the wood crate.

 

32 minutes ago, Dracula said:

A lot of people go out of their way to argue your play style instead of the mechanics. 

Oh, how I have noticed. A few people here think that the way they play the game is the right way of playing it, and everyone else who has a complaint or does things differently needs to just "get good."

 

37 minutes ago, Dracula said:

You may have better luck if you explicitly spell out your points; even then, expect to be misinterpreted and have people misinterpret the context.  I've found that if I slog on and try to explain exactly where the point I'm making stems from it has better results.

This is good advice, particularly for someone like me.

 

38 minutes ago, Dracula said:

This forum is a harsh place.

The two people who I am currently sharing a map with mentioned this too me more than once. They had described these forums as having been a toxic place for years, but during one of the 3 hour dev streams on YouTube (pre-A19 release), there were some comments about how the forums had gotten a lot better. I appreciate reading your comment, as it shows that it is not all insanity and superiority complex around here. It seems to be about 50-50 so far.

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

When the zombies fall from great height they loose up to 1/3 of their hitpoints.

This I did not know 🤔

 

I would say that it would be awesome if they added the option to view zombie health bars, but I remember watching a dev stream before a19 release where a lot of people were actually mad that the devs added waypoints and treasure radius markers, etc. After playing a19, I think some, not all, of the UI additions are a bit obtrusive, but nothing that can't be fixed with an opacity and/or scaling slider. Like what they have for the general UI, but one just for markers/waypoints. Just a thought. I'm sure others would like them removed altogether.

[meganoth]

34 minutes ago, NyLocke said:

I would say that it would be awesome if they added the option to view zombie health bars, but I remember watching a dev stream before a19 release where a lot of people were actually mad that the devs added waypoints and treasure radius markers, etc. After playing a19, I think some, not all, of the UI additions are a bit obtrusive, but nothing that can't be fixed with an opacity and/or scaling slider. Like what they have for the general UI, but one just for markers/waypoints. Just a thought. I'm sure others would like them removed altogether.

You can actually turn on a crude hitpoint display in the debug menue. And yes, when hitpoint bars were shown in an A18 preview video there was great commotion in the forum. There are fans for anything between no and fancy UIs and each change gets discussed intricately. Should you ever want hitpoint bars there are mods that turn them on.

 

 

[NyLocke]

18 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Should you ever want hitpoint bars there are mods that turn them on.

Are there any you can recommend? A quick search of the forums didn't give me any useful results. Besides, you've been here longer lol

[meganoth]

32 minutes ago, NyLocke said:

Are there any you can recommend? A quick search of the forums didn't give me any useful results. Besides, you've been here longer lol

Not really, I never looked for one, just came into contact with a HP bar while playing some overhaul mod. I'm fairly sure it was War3zuk's All-in-one. You might just ask him if that is available as a seperate modlet and from whom.

 

[Boidster]

2 hours ago, NyLocke said:

Are there any you can recommend? A quick search of the forums didn't give me any useful results. Besides, you've been here longer lol

The Mods forum would be the best place to ask. Or look at NexusMods. Here is one: https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/883

 

Can't recommend it or not; I don't use it.

[alanea]

18 hours ago, NyLocke said:

Remember when I said that I started playing in alpha18? Well since 17 comes before 18, then that means that I did not play it.

well didnt seen this statement ... but then you cant really  judge dumb  old ai ... vs new A17+ ai

as you have no idea about amount of destruction /mess / gameplay issues dumb zombies caused on world i  played 50% poi collapsed withou me even entering them just from dumb zombies trying to get out after fighting few times in that city

18 hours ago, NyLocke said:

 

OP is the one trying to change the game for everyone else, instead of playing the way he thinks it should be played. Not to mention there are issues in the game that cannot be fixed with "sliders." Only time will tell if they get fixed.

This is a serious problem that you, OP, and a few other people commenting here have. 7 Days to Die is a game that fits within several genres. Among other things, it is a SANDBOX game. Which means that there is no right way of playing it; you either survive, or you don't. Which also means, that you can't tell anyone else that they are playing the game wrong. Please look up the definition of a sandbox game. Until you know what that means you can't go around explaining to people why they are wrong.

Don't be ridiculous. You have this really annoying thing that you do when you respond to someone's comment where you take something they say, then you reword it to make them sound like an idiot, and finally you respond to YOUR version of their comment with a huge paragraph. With all due respect, it is hard enough for me to read/understand any of your responses, it doesn't help that 80% of your replies are you just arguing with yourself.

i usually shorten their text  to main point or nothing at all to reduce  size of reply  .. but iam replying to whole post sandbox game is  term ....that can be used on every game  that doesnt  lock you in room and give you quest to open door lol any game that allow you to choose what you will do  in next  5 min  is sandbox

but sandbox is  also completely empty statement and have 0 value in discussion about game systems /rules   developers decide whats wanted behavior = tolerate it or what isnt = block it with  game system ... like vehicle vultures or fall damage cap

 i take it as true troll you want turn topic into flamewar discussing completely offtopic thing  just to get attention

get a shower and  back to topic : AI and changes of game system

18 hours ago, NyLocke said:

As far as block damage goes, no one commenting here who is serious is asking for concrete bases to endure the full force of an endgame Horde night. If there is anyone who is asking that, then it is a shame that you take them seriously and put them in the same category of people here who, like me, just want a small buff to higher level materials. Let me repeat that, a SMALL buff to higher level materials. If I don't clarify myself I'm afraid I'll have to read a hefty novel about how I want the game to be more like my little pony. Whatever the hell that means.

well you hijacked talk between   people who  demand  immortal concrete and find it ridiculous that zombie can damage it by bare hand  .. and people who call that  BS  that cant be realistic due to balance issues ..  and personally i stated several times  block can last longer IF  effort to get them is adequate to durability and concrete we have now have best  work/hp value in game   ... sure   increase cost  3x   double hp andf its fine

18 hours ago, NyLocke said:

Lmao. No, if I get shot in the arm with a shotgun at point-blank range, I DIE. You know what that's called? Realism. So thanks for making my case for me. This is really important and I'm glad you brought it up. I could write a whole paragraph myself about this topic alone. It doesn't matter that zombies are resistant to pain. It doesn't matter if they feel NO PAIN AT ALL. Which by the way, I am inclined to say that they do feel pain because they make sounds that suggest they do when you inflict bleed damage or set them on fire, or even just damage them. At the end of the day, a zombie is made out of the same materials I am. They may be chasing me trying to eat my brains, but they are doing it with their legs which are made of flesh and bone (unless they're crawly bois lmao). Bone that should be just as easy to break for them as it is for me. When I am looting a POI and I sneak into a large room, clear the zombies and proceed to loot, I don't personally appreciate it when 4 zombies then drop from three stories up, get up and chase me like nothing happened. If the game was as hard on them as it is on the player, then when they dropped from that height, they would break a leg, and not be able to sprint. It would be interesting if, when zombies drop from such great heights, they become crawlers on impact.

 let me reveal  you mind shatering fact .....  you need   9  meter(block)  above ground to star breaking leg

can you   go to window   8 meters above asphalt  jump out and  walk away with sprained leg ?  6 meter fall and  have no consueqences at all ?  please stop comparing anything to real life .(dont try that at home lol )

funny fact parkour and feet mod more than double this distance

 

 world realistic is bs in  7 days universe   most  stuff is  working on preset ingame rules that have nothing common with realism  yes you can carry mountain of steel /concrete in bag  yes you can  slowly climb 85- 90°  with your motorcycle ...( glued  wheels ?:D )  and  yes you can perked + modded  fall   40-50 meters  end up alive with broken leg  instantly cure it with splint and  run around  at  100% speed

 

they added that stagger on drop to make it look more ....  lets say it was weird before zombies with  0 animations on landing  but devs definitely love idea of   zombies falling  near you and chasing you

and for resistance ? ever step on landmine in real  survived and bandaged all damage out ?

18 hours ago, NyLocke said:

I made a mistake when I said this, I should have worded it differently. However, this is another one of those compromises of artistic license. My problem is that when I think of a zombie, I think of a creature who was once human, died, then was reborn as the animalistic, purely instinctual, brain-craving creature we all enjoy blowing the brains out of. Different people have had different takes and have created different variations of zombies over time. Does that mean I'm "completely wrong", no I don't think so. I guess I'm a bit of a purest when it comes to zombies. I don't even necessarily have any issue with the types of zombies that 7DtD has. My issue is the same one I explained above in terms of buggy zombie physics. Do I think a zombie should be able to jump across a distance of 50 feet like some sort of human sized grasshopper? I think it's a bit silly, and given the survival aspect of the game, I'd expect more realistic zombie physics at least. But I won't be petitioning for 7 Days to Die to make their zombies more boring any time soon.

WHAT

 well problem is you have tunnel vision of walking dead zombies   ... completely ignoring fact that theres 50+ types of zombies with different abilities traits and attributes   running  or even supernatural zombies are as valid thing as slow ones and  7 days clearly dont have   slow humanlike zombies (  some take several shells to face .... some jump  24 meters  .. all destroy concrete  by bare hands.........)

we simply use different zombies  than you perceive as the only true ones lol

18 hours ago, NyLocke said:

You clearly love your zombie lore, and you seem to have quite the zombie beastarium at your disposal. However, different games and different movies use whichever variation of zombie makes the most sense for that universe. One frequent argument that I have seen you make several times in this thread when anyone has any complaint about the zombie AI is you always bring up the Walking Dead and how they are not the authority on what a zombie should be. But the problem is that you are the only one who brings up the Walking Dead. Actually, I could be wrong about that, as I haven't read every single comment. The point is, there are certain aspects of the 7DtD zombies that don't make a lot of sense (IMO) for the type of game that 7DtD is. The devs will ultimately decide what direction they take their zombies in, and it is anyone's guess what the final result will look like. But if it helps you understand where some people are coming from, I assume you've seen the movie "I am Legend?"

 

Imagine for a moment that you replaced the zombies from I am Legend with the ones we have in 7 Days to Die. It would totally change what type of movie that was. It would mess with the theme. The movie, in my opinion, would not be a very good movie (Although, I wouldn't say no to watching it if it was made). 7 Days to Die zombies would not fit in to that universe. What I am saying, and this is just my opinion, is that some of the behaviors that the zombies have now don't play well with the survival aspects of the game. At the same time, I admit that they would fit in more if 7DtD was less survival and more tower defense, but that is the line the devs are always working to balance.

whats good zombie movie ? resident evil ?  ... think that sonly one valid   walking  dead ?  nah zombie are just empty danger in background as far i know its only  aimed on " survivor characters and relationships with some drama"  not really good  or deep movie but people like those series

I am Legend? never even  heard about that one ... that quite tell alot about sucess / popularity

 

devs decided  game is based around roaming/looting and then preparing/ fortifying for  7th day(hopefully to not die)  those are basically main  2  aspects thats are fixed despite massive changes all around game

survival aspects are actually very slight in this game   yes you need to eat  or drink  but only very small amounts ( you found so much food / water  around so you never need to actually cook one if you looting poi)

theres no  natural impact .. winter never come and freeze you to death  you wont get diseases ..  parasites or even require balanced food

 

its basically tower defense  + exploration/loot game with  zombies as threat and some creativity /crafting

 

 

ps yes zombie take damage from fall  they just added cap to  1/3 hp  because it was extremely simple to  dog  hole  and kill all  7th day zombies by fall .... or even make 4x4  hole that make  zombies land almost dead and  you just walk around the electric fense / blade trap and collect loot (  or  kill those zombies  with  1 hp for easy xp)