Below ground farm (or greenhouse) in winter biome?

[Dukex13]

Hello, I was looking to get some info on a below ground farm. I have not played since A16. Loving A18 so far.

 

We're set up in a snow biome, we dug a large square 4 deep and put in walls and glass block for the roof. The glass block doesn't keep the weather out. It stays cold down there. Would bullet proof glass work or any other type of block?

 

The second issue is when I did attempt to plant seeds, it would not allow me to do so. Mushrooms were no problem. I put soil down and there is 3 blocks of clearance to the glass also tested it one deeper. Not sure if I'm planting.in the wrong soil, or if it's still not enough clearance or if there is something else I'm missing.

 

Thank you in advance.

[OzHawkeye]

In A18, you plant in farm plots, not on the soil itself.

 

The environment is dictated by the biome you're in as well, so in the Snow biome, it's cold always and everywhere, within the temperature constraints on that biome.

[Orclover]

That sucks about not being able to escape the temperature even inside a structure. I hope they fix that some day, seems silly.

[OzHawkeye]

That sucks about not being able to escape the temperature even inside a structure. I hope they fix that some day, seems silly.

 

I would think it somewhat unlikely. The issue would be the game having to "decide" what a structure is, and when it was sufficiently enclosed to prevent the outside temperature creeping in.

 

Unity struggles enough as it is with "volumetric" water, imagine how it'd perform if you were trying to get it to do volumetric atmosphere too.

[Dukex13]

I will definitely switch to the farm plot. I did see that but just assumed it would grow faster instead of not at all.

 

I might try putting a camp fire in the space to keep it warm? Just the glass ceiling wasn't doing anything. Not sure if the bullet proof glass would work any better? It's just pricey to build.

[Adam the Waster]

I would think it somewhat unlikely. The issue would be the game having to "decide" what a structure is, and when it was sufficiently enclosed to prevent the outside temperature creeping in.

 

Unity struggles enough as it is with "volumetric" water, imagine how it'd perform if you were trying to get it to do volumetric atmosphere too.

 

soo in the nut shell unity sucks!

[OzHawkeye]

I will definitely switch to the farm plot. I did see that but just assumed it would grow faster instead of not at all.

 

I might try putting a camp fire in the space to keep it warm? Just the glass ceiling wasn't doing anything. Not sure if the bullet proof glass would work any better? It's just pricey to build.

 

A stack of haybales a thousand blocks high wouldn't make a jot of difference. The campfire will keep you warm if you're near to and it's lit, but likewise won't make a hills of beans difference to the growth rate of the plants, which will grow the same whether the temperature is Absolute Zero, or hotter than the core of the Sun as it's coded right now. ;-)

[Psychodabble]

Temperature shouldn't be an issue for farming AFAIK. The issue you might have is with glass blocks. I'm not sure they count as sky to allow plants to grow. If you put in the farm plots and nothing grows, try changing the glass to iron bars. As I recall, farms under bars always worked.

[Damocles]

It could use the same logic as the lightness-level.

Anything darker than the outside light is inside, and could thus also have an inside temperature, with forges and torches increasing it radially.

 

The temperature should mainly represent open spaces in nature.

[OzHawkeye]

soo in the nut shell unity sucks!

 

Not at all. There's tonnes of stuff Unity does well, it's a big reason why the engine is so popular, and not just with small developers, Blizzard for example used Unity for one of their games, and it's just about your only mainstream choice for an engine that can make this beautiful, fully destructible interactive voxel world (trying doing that using Unreal say).

 

It's just not perfect, and the calculations required to do all that "atmospheric processing" would just about kill the average gamers PC dead in a heartbeat, so even if TFP spent the great gobs of time needed to implement it, and get Unity to work properly with it, most players couldn't use it.

 

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It could use the same logic as the lightness-level.

Anything darker than the outside light is inside, and could thus also have an inside temperature, with forges and torches increasing it radially.

 

The temperature should mainly represent open spaces in nature.

 

So an "enclosed structure" would be as simple as a roof with four pillars and no walls. Sure, that might "work", but it would look odd as hell, and pretty cheesy.

[Adam the Waster]

Not at all. There's tonnes of stuff Unity does well, it's a big reason why the engine is so popular, and not just with small developers, Blizzard for example used Unity for one of their games, and it's just about you're only mainstream choice for an engine that can make this beautiful, fully destructible interactive voxel world (trying doing that using Unreal say).

 

It's just not perfect, and the calculations required to do all that "atmospheric processing" would just about kill the average gamers PC dead in a heartbeat, so even if TFP spent the great gobs of time needed to implement it, and get Unity to work properly with it, most players couldn't use it.

 

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So an "enclosed structure" would be as simple as a roof with four pillars and no walls. Sure, that might "work", but it would look odd as hell, and pretty cheesy.

 

all right cuz i really hope some day the water will work better because its kinda crappy! just the water

[OzHawkeye]

all right cuz i really hope some day the water will work better because its kinda crappy! just the water

 

No arguments, me too, but it's a cascading series of exponentially increasing calculations. Just think of it, if you had realistic water, and I mean really realistic, and you dug through to the underside of a lake, the game (that is, your pc) would have to calculate, for every single block of that water the volumetric re-distribution of that water, as it flooded into the tunnel, and keep doing that, as the water spread in ever more different ways, filling up ever more different blocks as it spread out on every single frame update.

 

You'd no longer have any FPS, we'd be talking about FPM at that point.

[Damocles]

So an "enclosed structure" would be as simple as a roof with four pillars and no walls. Sure, that might "work", but it would look odd as hell, and pretty cheesy.

 

As far as I have seen, the lightlevel calculation is more than a simple vertical trace. So a structure with walls would be "warmer" (darker).

Its just needs to be good enough to make warmer places feel plausible. Its does not need to be so precise as you need to keep water in.

[Dukex13]

A stack of haybales a thousand blocks high wouldn't make a jot of difference. The campfire will keep you warm if you're near to and it's lit, but likewise won't make a hills of beans difference to the growth rate of the plants, which will grow the same whether the temperature is Absolute Zero, or hotter than the core of the Sun as it's coded right now. ;-)

 

Ok, good to know. We planted a forest of pine trees after about 12-14 in game days they were still only halfway like 600 HP. We were assuming it was temperature related. Probably more so because of the lack of fertile soil?

[Boidster]

It could use the same logic as the lightness-level.

Anything darker than the outside light is inside, and could thus also have an inside temperature, with forges and torches increasing it radially.

 

The temperature should mainly represent open spaces in nature.

 

Unfortunately, that is easy to exploit. Freezing to death? Build an "umbrella" out of solid blocks. Suddenly it's shaded and...warm? Determining what is "inside" vs. "outside" is a very non-trivial computation problem. The easily-understood human concept of "inside" is something like "there is no path to the "outside" that does not go through a solid block (including possibly a door or window)". It's easy for you or I to figure that out in most cases, but it begs the question a bit (in the original sense) because it presupposes a definition for "outside".

 

Most games use "sky access" as a stand-in for "outside". If a block has direct and unobstructed upward access to the sky, then that block is "outside", usually for the purpose of plant growth. Trying to use sky access as a stand-in for defining "inside" vs. "outside" is much more difficult. Imagine you were standing in the center of a middle floor of a multi-level parking garage. You essentially have 100' radius of ceiling over your head and floor under your feet, with pillars at the corners. Are you "inside"? You don't have sky access, for sure. But the wind is blowing straight through the parking garage, innit?

 

But you say, "well there aren't any walls so obviously I'm not inside", and that's the hard part computationally: figuring out if there are any "walls" that enclose your "inside" space. Start talking about multi-level bases which might have open rampways and other closed-off areas and it becomes ridiculously expensive to compute just how much wall is enough to count as "inside".

 

Most games where temperature is a gameplay factor deal with it via clothing and heat-producing objects. It's computationally very simple to figure out how close you are to a fire, or how much fur you are wearing. This particular game has a very interesting twist in that heat sources also attract additional death, in the form of Screamers. If you want to live in relative peace in the snow biome, invest in very warm armor/armor mods.

[Adam the Waster]

No arguments, me too, but it's a cascading series of exponentially increasing calculations. Just think of it, if you had realistic water, and I mean really realistic, and you dug through to the underside of a lake, the game (that is, your pc) would have to calculate, for every single block of that water the volumetric re-distribution of that water, as it flooded into the tunnel, and keep doing that, as the water spread in ever more different ways, filling up ever more different blocks as it spread out on every single frame update.

 

You'd no longer have any FPS, we'd be talking about FPM at that point.

 

i would just make it like minecraft water!

 

it will flow in blocks. that will just plop in rather then slowly

 

but that may just be me! also some threats in water like a gator.

 

and a giant fish idea i had called the "lake lurker" which would look like a giant catfish with teeth! and some water zombies like a fisherman!

[OzHawkeye]

As far as I have seen, the lightlevel calculation is more than a simple vertical trace. So a structure with walls would be "warmer" (darker).

Its just needs to be good enough to make warmer places feel plausible. Its does not need to be so precise as you need to keep water in.

 

Light "spreads out", 5 blocks unless that's changed recently, so for example you can make an underground farm if you want (not that there's actually any reason to), and it'll work so long as there is an unblocked shaft to the surface at least every 10 blocks. Blocks such as glass and iron bars won't block the light, so they can be used to "cap" the top of the shaft at the surface level, and prevent surprise... "drop in" guests.

 

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i would just make it like minecraft water!

 

it will flow in blocks. that will just plop in rather then slowly

 

but that may just be me! also some threats in water like a gator.

 

and a giant fish idea i had called the "lake lurker" which would look like a giant catfish with teeth! and some water zombies like a fisherman!

 

At one point water did sort of behave that way. Last I remember TFP talked about wanting to do something better with water, and likely will, but don't count on ever seeing realistic water - not until we're all sporting quantum computers at least.

 

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Ok, good to know. We planted a forest of pine trees after about 12-14 in game days they were still only halfway like 600 HP. We were assuming it was temperature related. Probably more so because of the lack of fertile soil?

 

To be honest, I haven't bothered planting trees in A18, there being so many in the world already, there just doesn't seem to be any point. Previously trees required no form of fertile soil (beyond dirt anyway, I don't think they grew on sand), so plant whatever you want, whereever you want, outside of a desert (and maybe wasteland??? dunno, never tried), that is.

[Adam the Waster]

Light "spreads out", 5 blocks unless that's changed recently, so for example you can make an underground farm if you want (not that there's actually any reason to), and it'll work so long as there is an unblocked shaft to the surface at least every 10 blocks. Blocks such as glass and iron bars won't block the light, so they can be used to "cap" the top of the shaft at the surface level, and prevent surprise... "drop in" guests.

 

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At one point water did sort of behave that way. Last I remember TFP talked about wanting to do something better with water, and likely will, but don't count on ever seeing realistic water - not until we're all sporting quantum computers at least.

 

yeah im not asking for it to be realistic. just so i connects to each other. it fall to ground kinda. and not look crapy

[OzHawkeye]

yeah im not asking for every realistic. just so i connects to each other. it fall to ground kinda. and not look crapy

 

Yeah, it'd be nice if it could be done, it's just really not easy, and quite taxing for the gamers PC to do it as well, so TFP will likely keep in mind the effort/reward equation in deciding how much time to spend on making any feature (this or any other), so good it looks fantastic, if doing so renders it outside the specs of most gamers PC's.

 

Still, we can hope. :-)

[Damocles]

Unfortunately, that is easy to exploit. Freezing to death? Build an "umbrella" out of solid blocks. Suddenly it's shaded and...warm? Determining what is "inside" vs. "outside" is a very non-trivial computation problem. The easily-understood human concept of "inside" is something like "there is no path to the "outside" that does not go through a solid block (including possibly a door or window)". It's easy for you or I to figure that out in most cases, but it begs the question a bit (in the original sense) because it presupposes a definition for "outside".

 

Most games use "sky access" as a stand-in for "outside". If a block has direct and unobstructed upward access to the sky, then that block is "outside", usually for the purpose of plant growth. Trying to use sky access as a stand-in for defining "inside" vs. "outside" is much more difficult. Imagine you were standing in the center of a middle floor of a multi-level parking garage. You essentially have 100' radius of ceiling over your head and floor under your feet, with pillars at the corners. Are you "inside"? You don't have sky access, for sure. But the wind is blowing straight through the parking garage, innit?

 

But you say, "well there aren't any walls so obviously I'm not inside", and that's the hard part computationally: figuring out if there are any "walls" that enclose your "inside" space. Start talking about multi-level bases which might have open rampways and other closed-off areas and it becomes ridiculously expensive to compute just how much wall is enough to count as "inside".

 

Most games where temperature is a gameplay factor deal with it via clothing and heat-producing objects. It's computationally very simple to figure out how close you are to a fire, or how much fur you are wearing. This particular game has a very interesting twist in that heat sources also attract additional death, in the form of Screamers. If you want to live in relative peace in the snow biome, invest in very warm armor/armor mods.

 

Its not cheating if you spend time to build a structure, that will create an enclosing. Thats what survival is all about.

And you cant do much in a very small room anyhow, and need to go outside again.

[Adam the Waster]

Yeah, it'd be nice if it could be done, it's just really not easy, and quite taxing for the gamers PC to do it as well, so TFP will likely keep in mind the effort/reward equation in deciding how much time to spend on making any feature (this or any other), so good it looks fantastic, if doing so renders it outside the specs of most gamers PC's.

 

Still, we can hope. :-)

 

yes i have hope for them

[blugold1]

I’m not sure if this applies, but I did create a raised greenhouse in a snow biome in A17.4. It was about 10-12 blocks above my base, and encased in shower glass. I’m not sure if the glass you are referring is the same as the shower glass, but if not, try that instead. You may also be digging too deep and the walls shading part of it, preventing growth and planting

[OzHawkeye]

Its not cheating if you spend time to build a structure, that will create an enclosing. Thats what survival is all about.

And you cant do much in a very small room anyhow, and need to go outside again.

 

As has been noted though, it's a simple matter for a human to work out, what's "inside" and what's "outside", not nearly so easy for a PC to do it in a convincing realistic way.

 

Simple example: take 1 block.

 

How do we calculate if it's "inside" or "outside". For light, it's just done by checking above the block for clear access to the sky. That's a nice, easy calculation to do, likely a raycast up the Y axis and see if it hit anything solid. But to do what you are asking, you have to path find from that block, every single possible combination of paths and ensure that all of them ended in a solid block.

 

Then you'd have to do that for every block in the active chunk to work out which ones were "inside" and which ones were "outside".

 

Then!! you have to periodically repeat that huge pile of calculations so that if a block was removed or added the "inside" and "outside" blocks were appropriately recategorized as needed.

 

As I mentioned previously, I think at that point FPS would turn into FPM.

 

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I’m not sure if this applies, but I did create a raised greenhouse in a snow biome in A17.4. It was about 10-12 blocks above my base, and encased in shower glass. I’m not sure if the glass you are referring is the same as the shower glass, but if not, try that instead. You may also be digging too deep and the walls shading part of it, preventing growth and planting

 

Light access is calculated vertically - only - meaning walls can't interfere with it.

[Boidster]

Its not cheating if you spend time to build a structure, that will create an enclosing. Thats what survival is all about.

And you cant do much in a very small room anyhow, and need to go outside again.

 

Right, but the suggestion was to use light level as a proxy for "inside". It is not difficult to create a low light level without actually creating a structure that would really be considered "enclosed". A medium-sized ceiling-only canopy would create very dark shadows. Heck, just stand next to a large pine tree and you're in low-light conditions. But...warmer?

 

The only way for the game to determine "inside" in a way that would be reasonable would be (I think) for it to do a bunch of vector tests, constantly. Like constantly shooting arrows of infinite velocity in every direction and testing what they hit. Then there have to be rules about terrain vs blocks vs trees vs everything else. Then you have to test for contiguous walls somehow, since it's possible the vectors all impact a block, but those blocks are actually part of independent structures. And etc.

 

It's just not easy, which is why games don't go there. I have only an academic knowledge of the computational problems involved; I trust that the experienced, professional game developers would solve the problem if they could, within the constraints of consumer CPUs, GPUs, and memory.

 

Edit: Also everything Oz said.

[Damocles]

Lightlevel is not just calculated vertically.

 

If you use the F3 menu, there is a parameter "sun" for the targeted block.

You will see that light also spreads sideways.

 

That level could be used to detect enclosed structures for example. (adjusting the calculation that windows/glas block those values)

 

You will notice that rooms with openings have higher "sun" level, then fully enclosed ones.

 

Its not really rocket-science to program a simple approximation of enclosed spaces. Its just needs to be good enough to work in most situations.