Game mechanic infection

[webskorpion]

The game mechanic infection in "7 Days to Die" has almost no effect. I have been playing the Alpha 17 for many hours (currently in the A17.2 Day 41, Level 112, Gamestage 236, Warrior) and have been very rarely infected. And even if, it was easy to cure with antibiotics, honey or natural antibiotics.

 

Suggestion:

 

- The likelihood of infection should be higher.

 

- Healing with antibiotics, honey or natural antibiotics should only work with a certain probability and not be guaranteed. That's the way it is in real life. There is no guarantee that a medicine will help 100%. Especially not with a viral infection.

 

Example:

 

Honey = 40% chance of healing

natural antibiotics = 50% chance of healing

Antibiotics = 60% chance of healing

 

The perk "intrinsic immunity" would therefore have a greater importance. It could also increase the chance of medication cure by 5% each time. In level 5 therefore a maximum of 25% more than normal.

 

Antibiotics, honey or natural antibiotics should have a visible temporary effect. When this effect is over, you should know if the medicine worked. If the medicine did not work, you should be able to take another drug.

 

The infection is an important aspect of a zombie apocalypse in many films! The infection should also have a higher meaning in the game.

 

(Unfortunately, I can only speak very little English. I have used translation program German – English.)

[RipClaw]

In principle, the infection works exactly as you described it. About a week ago Kage848 did a livestream where he had a stage 1 infection. He took antibiotics but that had no effect. The infection went up to level 3 and left him with 20 HP at the end.

 

Antibiotics are no longer guaranteed to work in A17. If you have the status "you feel something coming on" then honey helps immediately but only during this short period of time.

[RestInPieces]

While infection/diseases are in a better place than they were in A16, with more noticeable effects, death having some impact and all, their effects still feel somewhat feeble - especially infection. I only know their effects after testing them on creative though, since after many dozens of hours, living off yucas for much of the time, none managed to get food poisoning, none got dysentery (needs more sources other than water) and only once did someone get an infection after being hit by a hazmat zombie.

[fishjie]

Eh?

 

17.2 has been fine.

 

But in 17.1, the first few times i did quests without honey or antibiotics, i got an infection, and it slowly lowered my agility until any meelee attacks put me out of breath. it was actually quite cool - i think the idea is your str + fort go up, but agi goes down cause youre turning into a zombie. i could barely move eventually. that made running from irradiated zombies impossible. it resulted in multiple deaths. so now i always carry honey or antibiotics.

 

maybe i've been lucky so far in 17.2, but infection if it progressed were no joke. and antibiotics dont cure it right away either!

[Kirtonos]

I think what bugs me the most about the illness mechanic as it stands currently is that it is just an inventory tax on an already heavily taxed inventory system. Taking some form of first-aid antibiotic is just another item along with the "I should carry some of these" items that take up inventory space. Even at the later game stages when I've already perked up pack mule fully or have storage pocket mods, it remains as something I should have on my person as well as the intellectual overhead of "I need to go back to base because I forgot to restock X."

 

Also, the immunity perk does not remove the "need" to carry antibiotic items, it just lessens the RNG nature of the mechanic. You're still gonna pop that honey or herbal med because you want to guarantee that you don't get to stage 1 or higher.

 

This isn't to say that I'm against having an illness mechanic, I just would like for there to be more incentive to be proactive about your health than the current system which is inventory taxing and punishment aversion. For example: I really liked how vitamins promoted wellness pre-A17, now they rot in a container at the base.

[RipClaw]

This isn't to say that I'm against having an illness mechanic, I just would like for there to be more incentive to be proactive about your health than the current system which is inventory taxing and punishment aversion. For example: I really liked how vitamins promoted wellness pre-A17, now they rot in a container at the base.

 

I find the current disease system very confusing. In A16 it was clear what helps against which disease and it was also immediately obvious that it works. They knew that honey and herbal antibiotics only help against stage 1 infections and that the blue pill is needed for everything else.

Now everything is based on chance. You don't get any information whether something works or not and you don't see any differences between the individual cures.

 

I have already seen dead is dead players panicked when they had an infection and read in the description that the infection leads to death. They tried everything they had on medical supplies because they didn't see any of it working.

 

Or in other cases the player was standing around useless for 15 minutes because the antibiotics he was taking didn't work. Eventually the infection ended with stage 3 and he still had 20 HP.

 

What the player needs is feedback on whether something is working or not. It doesn't have to stop the infection immediately but a feedback would be very helpful.

[Khulkhuum]

I think the problem is not in always carrying med items. I have seen many players carry useful stuff like splints, bandages and sometimes pills for regular exploration. In A16 it was less dominant as status effects could have been healed some time after getting them, ergo their initial cons weren't high enough and players could wait.

 

In A17 almost every status effect has some kind of detriment towards the stats, stamina regeneration or something else. Even getting cold uses up food faster and decreases your strength. On the other hand, some things like diseases should have more indicators towards what is the players health?

 

I wouldn't mind a perk that would show information on own health (perhaps even other player health) in more detail as its level went up. From basic "feels good"/"is infected"/"is food poisoned", adding more specific information like "the infection is spreading/ending" to finishing with specific times the statuses will last. On the other hand, there could be a new item like a doctor's bag, which (containing all appropriate examination tools) could be used to show all that information.

[RipClaw]

In A17 almost every status effect has some kind of detriment towards the stats, stamina regeneration or something else. Even getting cold uses up food faster and decreases your strength. On the other hand, some things like diseases should have more indicators towards what is the players health?

 

If you're cold, then solution is easy. You just make a fire to warm yourself up. You get the effect immediately displayed and in the status information you can also see the temperature rise. So you have a feedback that is clearly understandable. This is simply missing in the case of an infection.

 

With a feedback you could make better decisions like "Should I continue the quest now or stop and return to the base?". Especially in the early game when you're still on foot or only have a bicycle then an infection can be pretty bad if you don't react immediately.

[Kage848]

In principle, the infection works exactly as you described it. About a week ago Kage848 did a livestream where he had a stage 1 infection. He took antibiotics but that had no effect. The infection went up to level 3 and left him with 20 HP at the end.

 

Antibiotics are no longer guaranteed to work in A17. If you have the status "you feel something coming on" then honey helps immediately but only during this short period of time.

 

That was a fun stream. Well except for the 15 mins I had to stand near my jeep waiting for the infection to pass lol.

 

For real, the infection mechanic atm is not very good imho. All it does to me is force me to stop playing the game and wait around. I don't know why this anyone would think this is a good mechanic.

 

To be clear if you like the mechanic I respect that, even if I don't understand why.

 

On top of that why dont antibiotics heal it 100%? When I drink red tea I dont have a % to get hydrated, when I eat i dont have a % to get full, when I heal I dont have a % to get hps. It's incredibly rage inducing to take pills and stand there while nothing happens just wasting your time.

 

Just my 2c

[RestInPieces]

All it does to me is force me to stop playing the game and wait around. I don't know why this anyone would think this is a good mechanic.

 

To be clear if you like the mechanic I respect that, even if I don't understand why.

 

The one who thought this is a good mechanic was obviously crazy enough to assume that people will not afk every time their stamina could restrict them in some way.

 

But, yes, infection should just put the player out of his misery when it reaches its last stage - or sooner, if the player is already with one foot in the grave. Honey shouldn't work for infection at all. Dysentery, pneumonia and food poisoning should also be lethal if the character is very malnourished.

 

I also agree that antibiotics etc should always work - but that the player should need constant medication and a greater number of antibiotics overall to combat a disease completely (x2 longer treatment with herbal antibiotics).

 

Finally - the "you feel something coming on" thing should appear within a small random range of time after the disease trigger (e.g. zombie hit) and not right away. When it appears it should give the player the chance to remember what the cause for him feeling unwell might have been and treat the disease sooner, lowering its max stages (not curing it). It should ALWAYS trigger the actual disease itself - current "immune system" is a mess and it's hardly how diseases work.

[Kage848]

The one who thought this is a good mechanic was obviously crazy enough to assume that people will not afk every time their stamina could restrict them in some way.

 

But, yes, infection should just put the player out of his misery when it reaches its last stage - or sooner, if the player is already with one foot in the grave. Honey shouldn't work for infection at all. Dysentery, pneumonia and food poisoning should also be lethal if the character is very malnourished.

 

I also agree that antibiotics etc should always work - but that the player should need constant medication and a greater number of antibiotics overall to combat a disease completely (x2 longer treatment with herbal antibiotics).

 

Finally - the "you feel something coming on" thing should appear within a small random range of time after the disease trigger (e.g. zombie hit) and not right away. When it appears it should give the player the chance to remember what the cause for him feeling unwell might have been and treat the disease sooner, lowering its max stages (not curing it). It should ALWAYS trigger the actual disease itself - current "immune system" is a mess and it's hardly how diseases work.

 

I think you and I want different games. I wanna fight zombies and build cool bases and you want to micromanage disease and infection. Not downplaying your interest in that mechanic, it's just not something I personally am interested in.

 

And if anything is going to lead to death then just have it happen right away. Having us wait around with no stamina and health draining is just boring. I'll just eat the glass in that situation.

[RestInPieces]

I think you and I want different games.

 

I know.

 

I wanna fight zombies and build cool bases and you want to micromanage disease and infection. Not downplaying your interest in that mechanic, it's just not something I personally am interested in.

 

I want to fight zombies too - same as you.

I want to build cool bases too - same as you.

I want as little micromanagement as possible - what does micromanagement have to do with what I described? In fact, you will be subject to less micromanagement if you are 100% certain that antibiotics will work and the "coming on" debuff will 100% become a disease you can immediately treat, and you will know the state of your character at any time.

 

Except if by micromanagement you mean, not being able to ignore diseases or staying afk, having to produce and use medicine and stuff which the game already intends you to do, but are just too inconsequential for anyone to bother doing.

 

Not trying to downplay your way of playing either, but want people to be specific and support what they say. I merely want the survival elements that the game already has "to work", not serve decorative purposes. I do hope for more working survival elements - as options. As long as they are made to work properly, it is the easiest thing in the world for TFP to just make them optional.

 

And if anything is going to lead to death then just have it happen right away. Having us wait around with no stamina and health draining is just boring. I'll just eat the glass in that situation.

 

You are only saying that because death is inconsequential

If death is bad enough to be avoided, you will not want to die, but to make/find medicine instead.

[Kage848]

I know.

 

 

 

I want to fight zombies too - same as you.

I want to build cool bases too - same as you.

I want as little micromanagement as possible - what does micromanagement have to do with what I described? In fact, you will be subject to less micromanagement if you are 100% certain that antibiotics will work and the "coming on" debuff will 100% become a disease you can immediately treat, and you will know the state of your character at any time.

 

Except if by micromanagement you mean, not being able to ignore diseases or staying afk, having to produce and use medicine and stuff which the game already intends you to do, but are just too inconsequential for anyone to bother doing.

 

Not trying to downplay your way of playing either, but want people to be specific and support what they say. I merely want the survival elements that the game already has "to work", not serve decorative purposes. I do hope for more working survival elements - as options. As long as they are made to work properly, it is the easiest thing in the world for TFP to just make them optional.

 

 

 

You are only saying that because death is inconsequential

If death is bad enough to be avoided, you will not want to die, but to make/find medicine instead.

 

Constant medication was the micromanagement I was talking about.

 

A16 did it perfectly. Your infected. Take meds. Now it's gone. I dont see what was wrong with that system.

 

Loss of perks with death is a penalty. Might not be enough for you but I think it's fine.

 

And I take death very seriously. I also take wasting my time waiting for an infection to kill me seriously. Kill me or dont. But enough with the stamina drain time wasting.

[RestInPieces]

Constant medication was the micromanagement I was talking about.

 

A16 did it perfectly. Your infected. Take meds. Now it's gone. I dont see what was wrong with that system.

 

Loss of perks with death is a penalty. Might not be enough for you but I think it's fine.

 

And I take death very seriously. I also take wasting my time waiting for an infection to kill me seriously. Kill me or dont. But enough with the stamina drain time wasting.

 

Losing a perk level is almost negligible no matter how you see it and you don't even lose that before you max them, if you spend more points in the attribute before getting the perk.

 

As for the constant medication - you would for example get two antibiotics in a row and be done with it, instead of getting an antibiotic, not knowing what is happening, checking if you have to take one again etc. That's can hardly be considered more micromanagement. Anyhow, what I care about most is not the amount of antibiotics you have to get, but whether they are worth existing.

[ktr]

I've had some interesting RNG with the infection system.

 

Usually, I see the "you feel something coming on" for a few seconds and then it's gone. But, I've had the "you feel something coming on" and the timer just keeps ticking up. Once, it was up to around 4hrs. I've only gotten sick a handful of times but once was back to back infections that progressed because I'd yet to find medicine.

 

I can't decide if I like the new way or not because it is very sporadic, yet does have some startling consequences the first time they're encountered. I do wonder if dysentery and maybe food poisoning should be taken out altogether. Getting purified water is generally pretty easy on Day 1, rendering the chances anyone will need to drink unsafe water to pretty much nill. The only time I've had food be an issue is when I'm playing with friends and the four to five of us just don't have the stock of cookable food in the first week to feed all of us.

 

There are some infections (like pneumonia) that I only know might be in the game because the medicines descriptions say they can be healed.

 

I think if we're going to have medicines and infections that the system probably does need some tweaking to make them more common.

 

 

EDIT:

Anyhow, what I care about most is not the amount of antibiotics you have to get, but whether they worth existing.

 

This sums up my thoughts on it too. In previous Alphas, I got antibiotics so fast and in such quantities, that all other meds were obsolete and the infections a non-issue. In A17, the rates of medicines is lower overall, giving things like honey, and herbal antibiotics a place, except for the infections being so rare that it almost doesn't matter.

[RestInPieces]

Damn typos :S

 

There are some infections (like pneumonia) that I only know might be in the game because the medicines descriptions say they can be healed.

 

Same - dysentery never becomes an issue, food poisoning and infection from my experience are extremely hard to get - 1 infection 0 FP, in a ~100 hour playthrough, with many deaths and without paying much attention to what I was eating and spamming yucas. As for pneumonia - you don't seem to be able to get it while running naked in the rain in the forest biome, because I've done plenty of that (don' ask), and I haven't been playing much in the snow biome to be able to get it..

[JaxTeller718]

Going through the buffs xml it appears as if ALL illnesses start with the "You Have Something Coming On" buff. Dysentery, infection all of it. That is probably where the confusion comes in. Theres a starting level to all illnesses now that we never had before and its all one generic line. Probably so that all of it can be cured with honey right away.

 

It may help if they changed that line for each buff you get to something like "You have been bitten" "you ate something bad" or something similar so you know what illness you are about to receive.

[Umbrella]

Getting purified water is generally pretty easy on Day 1, rendering the chances anyone will need to drink unsafe water to pretty much nill

 

Very true. Maybe the boiled water (and most day 1 recipes, at least those containing meat) should have a small % to make you sick, say 0.5% - less than unpurified or canned food (5%?) ofc. Just so that the illness triggers here and then.

 

Also add a way to make cleaner water (0 or 0.01% ?) at higher level (some water purifier system, could be an advanced campfire-like craftstation, or some additive to add to the water/food, or both).

 

Same with hot/cold. Maybe add more climatic hazards ?

 

And as others mentioned, link resistances food/water/temperature together (worse digestion when hot, worse immunity when hungry).

[Kirtonos]

R.I.P., I think you have a good point on that the "You feel something coming on" debuff should only be activated when the player is actually about to go into stage 1 illness. The debuff should be more of a "You're about to get sick, you should do something about it now" warning. Not a "You might get sick... you might not. Do something, don't do something, it's all good. May RNG guide you." This would be a great improvement for the early game (as this is the only time that this system is even remotely relevant) in that the player doesn't have to waste precious medical items on something that will probably not even become an illness.

 

As it is, I see the debuff and chug some honey. Honey is plentiful at later game stages so this is where the inventory and mental tax comes into play that I mentioned in an earlier post. I don't want to deal with the potential penalty and I could probably use the HP boost. 99% of the time it goes away. Even without being perked into immunity, I could just let it go untreated and it has a good chance to not develop into an illness.

 

I can already tell that there will be some posts admonishing Kage for not playing through the penalty of illnesses but what does one do in reality when they get sick? They rest and recover. Why wouldn't that same hold true for when your character is at less than optimal performance. This is especially true during early game stages when every bit of performance counts and when you are most likely to be suffering from the effects of an illness due to any number of reasons.

 

Kage, I also see where you are coming from on in that if illnesses are intended to be lethal then make it quick. Don't waste the player's time in meandering about if you are going to kill them or not. If death is in the cards, then do it. That means the player can start working towards getting rid of their death penalty timer instead of waiting for the grim reaper to show up. I mean, certainly give the player time to respond and possibly prevent but this current system of waiting to see if something takes effect or gets worse without any sort of helpful UI is less than ideal.

[RestInPieces]

R.I.P., I think you have a good point on that the "You feel something coming on" debuff should only be activated when the player is actually about to go into stage 1 illness. The debuff should be more of a "You're about to get sick, you should do something about it now" warning. Not a "You might get sick... you might not. Do something, don't do something, it's all good. May RNG guide you."

 

I love RNG more than anything but imo, this is not a good place to have RNG like you said. Plus, at the moment, the chance that the "coming on" buff will actually become a disease is minimal like the OP describes.

 

but what does one do in reality when they get sick? They rest and recover. Why wouldn't that same hold true for when your character is at less than optimal performance.

 

And while I also love realism/consistency etc, from a gameplay perspective you can't force someone to rest/afk, it's one of the worst things you can do to the player. However the game atm is NOT forcing anyone to rest/afk, Kage chose it. Why? Because he can - your character will just shrug the disease off in the end.

 

Going through the buffs xml it appears as if ALL illnesses start with the "You Have Something Coming On" buff. Dysentery, infection all of it. That is probably where the confusion comes in. Theres a starting level to all illnesses now that we never had before and its all one generic line. Probably so that all of it can be cured with honey right away.

 

It may help if they changed that line for each buff you get to something like "You have been bitten" "you ate something bad" or something similar so you know what illness you are about to receive.

 

The thing is it that it rarely leads to an actual disease even if you do nothing.

 

Took a look at the xml - I guess it rolls every time the illness indicator updates?

<triggered_effect trigger="onSelfBuffFinish" action="AddBuff" target="self" buff="buffIllDysentery1">

<requirement name="RandomRoll" seed_type="Random" target="self" min_max="0,100" operation="LTE" value="@$illnessChance"/>

</triggered_effect>

[JaxTeller718]

I love RNG more than anything but imo, this is not a good place to have RNG. Plus, at the moment, the chance that the "coming on" buff will actually become a disease is minimal as the OP says.

 

 

 

And while I also love realism/consistency etc, from a gameplay perspective you can't force someone to rest/afk, it's one of the worst things you can do to the player. However the game atm is NOT forcing anyone to rest/afk, Kage chose it. Why? Because he can - your character will just shrug it off the disease in the end.

 

 

 

The thing is it that it rarely leads to an actual disease even if you do nothing.

 

Took a look at the xml - I guess it rolls every time the illness indicator updates?

 

That is correct. Its a chance, which is all moddable. 0,100 i suspect is the chance on roll. That SHOULD able to be changed to 0,0 or 100,100 or even 50,100 as later stages advance. So stage 3 can have 80,100 which is 80 percent chance to advance.

[Kirtonos]

And while I also love realism/consistency etc, from a gameplay perspective you can't force someone to rest/afk, it's one of the worst things you can do to the player. However the game atm is NOT forcing anyone to rest/afk, Kage chose it. Why? Because he can - your character will just shrug the disease off in the end.

 

To be clear, I'm with you on forced downtime. I was not advocating for that at all. I was preemptively defending Kage for using an afk tactic when faced with the current system since I recall the posts from the death penalty thread when people said they were opting out of playing while debuffed. Gameplay should be focused on keeping the player engaged. Be it low attention activities such as mining or high tension activities such as horde nights.

[jdm311]

RestInPieces, I really like the idea of making antibiotics more necessary by having to take them on a schedule in order to fight off an infection. Maybe each one provides 8 hours of protection (non-stackable) from the infection (and negative side effects) and taking 3 fights off the infection completely. So in other words, after a day of taking 3 spaced out by 8 hours each, the infection completely goes away. Maybe it's double the time to fight off for herbal antibiotics. Another idea - make it rng how bad the infection is and require an unknown amount of antibiotics (maybe as many as 5 or 6 doses in worst case), still taking them at known intervals. Honey does have natural bacterial fighting properties and should still be used, but early on in the process as it is now. It seems to me that hits from infected creatures that causes bleeding should always ( or nearly always) cause infection. Although, maybe there could be a period of time that you could use a first aid bandage that could prevent the infection, but it would have to be before the bleeding out debuff goes away. I'm not sure if this is the case or not (it doesn't feel to me like it is), but bleeding damage should be much less prevalent the more iron/steel armor worn. Still a small chance to get bleeding damage though, as we are not completely covered in iron - there is still some skin showing. I realize this sort of implementation would require more micromanagement in healing, as Kage pointed out, but it also makes having antibiotics more important. Taking a pill and calling it a day sort of takes a hit on realism, even though there are plenty of other absurd concepts like growing trees and farming crops within days to sustain yourself or even zombies in general. This is a survival game, and the second biggest threat, behind being some zomzoms lunch, should be avoiding becoming the muncher.

[RipClaw]

And while I also love realism/consistency etc, from a gameplay perspective you can't force someone to rest/afk, it's one of the worst things you can do to the player. However the game atm is NOT forcing anyone to rest/afk, Kage chose it. Why? Because he can - your character will just shrug the disease off in the end.

 

You've apparently not yet looked closely at the effects of an infection. Already a stage 1 infection affects you so much that a melee fight becomes problematic. With stage 2 you have practically no more stamina regeneration and with stage 3 you lose so much health and stamina that even on medium difficulty every blow from a zombie could be fatal and you can not run away.

 

Unless it's a suicide mission, a fight is no longer an option.

[RestInPieces]

You've apparently not yet looked closely at the effects of an infection. Already a stage 1 infection affects you so much that a melee fight becomes problematic. With stage 2 you have practically no more stamina regeneration and with stage 3 you lose so much health and stamina that even on medium difficulty every blow from a zombie could be fatal and you can not run away.

 

Unless it's a suicide mission, a fight is no longer an option.

 

Really?

 

1 <passive_effect name="StaminaChangeOT" operation="base_subtract" value="1.5" />

<passive_effect name="HealthChangeOT" operation="base_subtract" value="0.5" />

<passive_effect name="HealthLoss" operation="perc_add" value="0.2"/>

<passive_effect name="StaminaLoss" operation="perc_add" value="0.5"/>

 

2 <passive_effect name="StaminaChangeOT" operation="base_subtract" value="3"/>

<passive_effect name="HealthChangeOT" operation="base_set" value="0"/>

<passive_effect name="HealthLoss" operation="perc_add" value="0.3"/>

<passive_effect name="StaminaLoss" operation="perc_add" value="0.7"/>

 

3 <passive_effect name="StaminaChangeOT" operation="base_subtract" value="5"/>

<passive_effect name="HealthChangeOT" operation="base_set" value="0"/>

<passive_effect name="HealthLoss" operation="perc_add" value="0.4"/>

<passive_effect name="StaminaLoss" operation="perc_add" value="0.7"/>

<passive_effect name="StaminaMax" operation="base_subtract" value="20"/>

<passive_effect name="HealthMaxModifierOT" operation="base_subtract" value="2"/>

 

The percentage add hurts most - the base subtract is negligible, the max health modifier at 3 makes it easy to die if hit - the max stamina modifier is negligible.

 

Also tested the infection stages in game with ZERO perks (go ahead and test these yourself):

 

Already a stage 1 infection affects you so much that a melee fight becomes problematic

At infection stage 1, the only thing you can't do is spam attacks with heavy weapons.

 

With stage 2 you have practically no more stamina regeneration

Yes you do. You just have to wait a few seconds between melee hits.

 

with stage 3 you lose so much health and stamina that even on medium difficulty every blow from a zombie could be fatal and you can not run away

At infection stage 3, you can kite a horde on nightmare mode all night long.

 

 

Finally, mining and non-ranged combat are only affected in any meaningful degree. So you hardly have to "afk".

We are talking about the worst game debuff here... and I am in awe how people expect that its latter stages, after leaving it untreated, to not have any meaningful disadvantage.

 

RestInPieces, I really like the idea of making antibiotics more necessary by having to take them on a schedule in order to fight off an infection. Maybe each one provides 8 hours.....

 

Shouldn't be on a schedule because then it would be the annoying kind of micromanagement none likes - would be better if the player could take them any time he wanted (while being diseased and not already on medication). As for RNG don't think it's very wise to use it here. Heavy armor does have some increased effect resistance.