Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Roland]

Completely? Come now.

[Viktoriusiii]

Completely? Come now.

 

If the zombies were fakir' just laying on them... sure.

But those are super thin sticks that are made to impale you on them.

 

So yeah... kinda completely

Like... it is specificially made so that you can NOT just walk over them...

The only block even less meant to be a full block is the air block

[Khulkhuum]

I would agree that the spikes are too big to not be considered something "solid", therefore i don't mind it being viewed as a block by the Zs. You can make a 1 block deep ditch and put the spikes in, making your enemies "run" over them and take damage this way. Or make your corridor "sunken" 1 block deep, with spikes on the bottom and barbed wire on the walls to slow them down.

[LMental23]

Maybe someone already said this, but here are some simple concepts (always in my personal opinion):

 

Why don't you take ideas from the best Mods? The Mod Ravenhearst in A17 is far better than the Vanilla game, it have a lot of good ideas on it, and the progression system makes you wanna keep playing it for hours and hours, not to mention how scary are the nights even in the day 30.

 

The Mod Darkness Falls in A17 is incredible, a little bit OP when you reach level 100, but it's really funny to play.

 

Same with Starvation in A16, plenty of incredible ideas, and it was hard AF, but in a good way, it looks like you don't care about that brilliant mods, you are focused in your own ideas.

 

I know it's hard to make all happy, it's a giant community and there will always be people angry about everything you do, but you should focus on the good ideas.

 

I don't like the new receipt system, but that's something personal, so I'm not gonna say anything bad about it.

 

And the most obvious thing, the regular spikes, I don't get why you removed them, you make hordes harder and harder, the AI is better at every patch, but we can't even defend our bases the first weeks. My first game in A17, I just made my typical A16 first anti-horde base, it got destroyed after 3 mins, that's so radical.

 

I play this game from many years ago, not a newb, but I'm totally running out ideas for my base (already made bunkers, 5 pilar normal base with iron bars, wall & trap classic, water base, killing corridors, etc..), checked a lot of videos in Youtube with new base ideas, but looks like people having the same issue, running out of ways to defend a normal base, not even a horde base, a normal base with your stuff.

 

At the end, the only way to survive the hordes the first weeks will be using bicycle or minibike all the night with enough fuel.

 

One of the strongest points of this game is the building part, if you make building a base useless, well...

 

7 Days is my favorite game, so I hope you start to check the good ideas from the best mods and add them to the game, and bring back the regular spikes, maybe nerfing their damage, but they are the key to survive the first days.

[OzHawkeye]

but you should focus on the good ideas.

 

But good, according to who?

 

I mean, that really is the crux of the sort of "no-win" scenario (Kobayashi Maru) that TFP face. One persons "good idea" is another persons "terrible idea". Moreover, for content to go into the base game it needs to be relatively universal, and while the mods you mentioned have some really neat mechanics in them, they all extend well past a "base game".

 

TFP ought to, imho, provide as well rounded and polished a base game as they can, while ensuring to open up as much to modding as they possibly and easily can, so that post-Gold, the community can spend years, tweaking, modding and twisting the base game into all sorts of new and wondrous shapes.

[leaderdog]

I agree with OZHawkeye,

 

sorry LMental23, I'm glad the pimps are working hard at making a solid base for the game. Then modders can take it any direction they like.

 

Ravenhearst, while has MANY amazing ideas, what made me quit playing it was the lack of common sense in some actions, Not able to cut meat unless you have a specific blade, or can't make instant noodles without a microwave despite me having a campfire with a pot hanging over it. In a survival game... that's not survival. If you're starving you'd eat the noodles raw and dump the packet in water and drink it for the flavour, or nutrients. So fun is all relative to the user. Some may enjoy that as a challenge, and others like me think, I'm hungry, looks at noodles, looks at hanging pot over fire wondering why they don't work together...

 

What I do hope the pimps fix is how clunky the game feels. A16 felt smooth. Now it feels like a horrible console port.

 

When I press a button to switch to a different weapon if I use attack to quick it remains on the same weapon. Even when I waited a second or so (while being attacked) it still didn't move over which ended up getting me killed. I'm fine if I do something stupid to get myself killed, game mechanics, that fail shouldn't cause me to die.

 

Hacking open a tool stiffy or other loot container, instead of being able to open the moment it switches (when the writing appears) you still have to wait now to open it. The E button doesn't work right away.

 

A16 felt fluid, A17 feels console porty. Which is sad. I was playing ESO with a friend, and that exact issue happens all the time. Run to a door to open it (or person to talk to), the option to hit E to interact is there and I find myself standing there doing nothing, because it had a delay before I could hit it, so I have to hit E again. Stuff like that is beyond annoying, and as it happens more often, it gets supremely annoying. But perhaps that's just one man's experience/opinion. Others may be more patient with things like that.

 

If others aren't experiencing this, maybe I have to reinstall the game or perhaps it's the modded game I'm playing.

[Roland]

it looks like you don't care about that brilliant mods

 

That they exist at all shows that the Pimps care. Why should those mods be part of the base game when you can easily download them and play them? You haven't lost anything. Instead of a single experience that somehow blends all the mods together you get three separate experiences that you can play. Win.

 

If you have a dream about a mod that is a little bit of this and a little bit of that then dig in and create it. Give credit to those whose ideas you use and permission for protected assets and make Dark StarvenHearst Falls...

[Thorne]

Just wanted to pop back in for a sec to say that, having begun to read the known issues list for 17.4, and seeing that trader whats-her-name STILL has a deep voice, I am now genuinely concerned that the development team somehow get off on this. That is all.

 

(The alternative being that they STILL haven't worked up the nerve to ask a girl to record for them)

[Hollowprime]

That they exist at all shows that the Pimps care. Why should those mods be part of the base game when you can easily download them and play them? You haven't lost anything. Instead of a single experience that somehow blends all the mods together you get three separate experiences that you can play. Win.

 

If you have a dream about a mod that is a little bit of this and a little bit of that then dig in and create it. Give credit to those whose ideas you use and permission for protected assets and make Dark StarvenHearst Falls...

 

Don't you think binding of isaac has gotten better by copying mods into the vanilla game?

I certainly think so. Sometimes creativity needs to be broader to please the masses ... that doesn't sound right.

[Roland]

Pleasure the masses would’ve been worse

[LMental23]

"Dark StarvenHearst Falls" ok that was a brilliant answer xD.

 

Your point is right the game have a good base for modders to create something different.

 

The only thing I still don't get is why you removed regular spikes, make them harder to craft, or nerf them to make less damage, but spikes are the main thing to protect your base, your walls and to create traps for the zombies. With the other spikes zombies just break them in 5 seconds and destroy your walls really easy.

 

You can check the channel JaWoodle in Youtube, this guy is a maniac creating new base ideas, and even him is running out of them.

 

It's all about the balance, I have more than 4000 hours in 7 days, A15 was incredible, and then in A16 you added sleepers in the buildings, which made the game scarier and funnier, but the best thing of A16 was the many things you could do, the many base types you could create, you played a new game until day 100, and then you wanted to start a new one with another base type.

 

Now there's only one way to survive the first days, almost only one way to build a base, so, when you end a game, there isn't the same spirit to start a new one if it's going to be almost the same.

 

It's my opinion of course, but I love this game and I want to "help" if I can to make it live longer and even more succesful, because I want to face the Behemoth in A18 and maybe new enemies (I hope).

[meganoth]

When I press a button to switch to a different weapon if I use attack to quick it remains on the same weapon. Even when I waited a second or so (while being attacked) it still didn't move over which ended up getting me killed. I'm fine if I do something stupid to get myself killed, game mechanics, that fail shouldn't cause me to die.

 

...

 

Hacking open a tool stiffy or other loot container, instead of being able to open the moment it switches (when the writing appears) you still have to wait now to open it. The E button doesn't work right away.

 

...

 

If others aren't experiencing this, maybe I have to reinstall the game or perhaps it's the modded game I'm playing.

 

I have experienced this only with bandages on my belt. If I switch to a bandage while bleeding and try to use it, I often have to use it again since the input didn't get registered. I don't get that with hacking or weapons at all.

 

I assume this is a bug and you got it worse than me. Hopefully at least one TFP internal tester got this too, then it should be already fixed in A18.

[Roland]

"Dark StarvenHearst Falls" ok that was a brilliant answer xD.

 

Your point is right the game have a good base for modders to create something different.

 

The only thing I still don't get is why you removed regular spikes, make them harder to craft, or nerf them to make less damage, but spikes are the main thing to protect your base, your walls and to create traps for the zombies. With the other spikes zombies just break them in 5 seconds and destroy your walls really easy.

 

You can check the channel JaWoodle in Youtube, this guy is a maniac creating new base ideas, and even him is running out of them.

 

It's all about the balance, I have more than 4000 hours in 7 days, A15 was incredible, and then in A16 you added sleepers in the buildings, which made the game scarier and funnier, but the best thing of A16 was the many things you could do, the many base types you could create, you played a new game until day 100, and then you wanted to start a new one with another base type.

 

Now there's only one way to survive the first days, almost only one way to build a base, so, when you end a game, there isn't the same spirit to start a new one if it's going to be almost the same.

 

It's my opinion of course, but I love this game and I want to "help" if I can to make it live longer and even more succesful, because I want to face the Behemoth in A18 and maybe new enemies (I hope).

 

The spikes were removed because they were just another versions of spikes. Spikes A and Spikes B don't really add diversity to gameplay other than the aesthetic value of having a different appearance. On top of that the animation of the zombies walking on and interacting with the log spikes was bad and not worth the time and effort to try and fix since there was already a spike trap version already in the game.

 

Now, you might be disappointed about it but I hope you can understand why it was done. That trap type was doubly covered. Just so you know, I'm disappointed about it too. I didn't mind the animations and I liked the wood spikes for decorating beyond the use of them as a trap. But my vote only counts for .01 of a dev vote....

 

As far as base styles I disagree strongly that there are fewer base designs. Before A17 as I perused the youtubers and also read threads in the forums I can tell you that there were only a few basic designs that were mostly used and copied by everyone. Of course there were lots of fringe experimental bases that people would try out or that could exploit the zombie AI. The only difference now is that the exploit pattern has changed and there is a new set of 2-3 dependable designs that everyone copies.

 

If you don't like the speed of zombies breaking walls then turn their block destruction down to 50%. That may be all it takes for some of your own base designs to start working again.

[meganoth]

 

Now there's only one way to survive the first days, almost only one way to build a base, so, when you end a game, there isn't the same spirit to start a new one if it's going to be almost the same.

 

Early game a single player at a higher than normal difficulty level is almost forced to use a POI for the first 2 weeks, but that should be a no-brainer in a voxel world with hundreds of usable buildings at your disposal. But surviving inside a POI is easy. No need to drive around.

 

If we look at middle to late game, I have built 4 totally different horde bases in the last 3 playthroughs that all made surviving quite easy. It was in co-op games with 3 other players, but naturally all designs would work in SP too.

 

There are two important rules for horde bases that a player needs to know at the moment:

1) Use at least 2 blocks thick (concrete) walls for sides you don't want zombies to get in.

2) provide a trap-filled path to you. You can provide two paths on different sides but then that is double the work, or a path on all sides but then it is 4 times the work. That isn't really different from earlier alphas, just that you can save the work for 3 of the 4 sides.

 

See for example https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?112831-Confession-Time&p=960380&viewfull=1#post960380. A really conventional base with a melee cage inside. There is a fallback position on the 1st floor if they break through, but with the spike overkill and blade traps shown in the picture and someone shooting at them the zombies didn't even come close to the cage.

 

Here are pictures of a drop base https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?112326-New-Auger-Heat-and-its-Problems&p=959725#post959725.

 

Below you see pictures of a horde base again with a melee cage (the cage bar is made out of 4 quarter blocks). The zombies have to go all the way in and through the back entrance with the blade trap to get to me. The fallback position is up the ladder on the platform that looks like a swimming pool springboard. Shooting them from above generates easy headshots (similar to how my drop used that gimmick), there's electrical wire inbetween and a dart trap that shoots from below (but also can hit you if you aren't careful).

 

Every one of these horde bases needed some trial and error, it never worked perfectly from start to finish, but I always had built a backup position into my bases that allowed survival even when zombies got through.

 

I really don't understand why anyone would say in A17 there is only one base design possible. A17 has been the first time I'm actively building bases because it is interesting and you can do so many different designs. It got more dangerous, yes, mistakes can kill you very fast, but when a design is fully working it even might be working too good.

[Viktoriusiii]

The spikes were removed because they were just another versions of spikes. Spikes A and Spikes B don't really add diversity to gameplay other than the aesthetic value of having a different appearance.

 

Quick correction:

Log spikes were the only permanent early trap. Now you have to use electric fences, but they don't deal enough damage, so you need bladetraps. But before you have electronics (and even after depending on the size of your base), there are no permanent defenses.

 

 

So yeah. They DID diversivy defense strategies by A LOT! More than beeing able to upgrade normal spikes ever could.

[LMental23]

I apreciate your answer about the log spikes, now I understand it a bit more, but I'm still thinking they are needed for early game if you aren't an experienced player, and I don't think people care that much about the animations of zombies on the spikes. Another idea could be that it was possible to upgrade the only spikes in the game to steel, the iron ones are good but get destroyed so fast in the hordes.

 

Anyway, it's good to see some devs taking care of the community, and a lot of people with good ideas for new updates, the game is going in the good way, can't wait to see new mods and the A18 update, thanks all for your hard work

[Roland]

Quick correction:

Log spikes were the only permanent early trap.

 

Big correction: there are no permanent traps in the game. All blocks in the game are intended to be destructible with the exception of the trader POI.

 

So you must mean that the exploit of rotating them upside down so that their flat underside could be walked on like flat ground all the while giving magical damage to the zombies that at the time couldn’t attack downward at all which would have made them permanent and yet completely unrealistic and OP is what you’re actually pining for.

 

How ironic that you defend the log spikes when it isn’t even the spiked end of the block that interests you. What you really want is magical flat ground that damages zombies as they walk upon it never causing degradation or necessitating repair but always destroying zombies as they walk unobstructed upon it.

 

The very picture of an exploit.

 

Properly used as they were conceived and intended before advanced rotations came along and created the oversight, they were neither permanent nor much different in function to wood spikes. I bet you wouldn’t be nearly so interested in them if the advanced rotation options for them were removed...

[Khulkhuum]

Well i wouldn't mind having an upgraded version of the spikes, which would have higher health and do a bit more damage. Then we could be talking about log spikes being identical to wooden spikes.

 

My tactics in prior to A17 was to make a field of log spikes on top of which there were wooden spikes. So if one type went down, the other would inflict damage. This ofcourse can't work in A17, as Zs will not simply run at player (no matter where he is), but on the other hand i could make a similar field with only wooden spikes now (although it would be less durable).

 

So yeah, i see a bit of a difference in log spikes and wooden spikes, alongside looking different, wooden spikes visually changing as they get damaged and having lower damage.

[Viktoriusiii]

Big correction: there are no permanent traps in the game. All blocks in the game are intended to be destructible with the exception of the trader POI.

 

So you must mean that the exploit of rotating them upside down so that their flat underside could be walked on like flat ground all the while giving magical damage to the zombies that at the time couldn’t attack downward at all which would have made them permanent and yet completely unrealistic and OP is what you’re actually pining for.

 

How ironic that you defend the log spikes when it isn’t even the spiked end of the block that interests you. What you really want is magical flat ground that damages zombies as they walk upon it never causing degradation or necessitating repair but always destroying zombies as they walk unobstructed upon it.

 

The very picture of an exploit.

 

Actually no. This is absolutely not what I had in mind. (and please don't jump to conclusions and get passive agressive over nothing) I know it sounds weird, but for the longest time, I didnt even use them upside down, as I liked the aestetic of the normally rotated spikes.

I was arguing for the normal log spikes, which work pretty much the same as the 180° rotated ones, just that zombies jump up and down and looting was a bit harder.

But zombies would still not attach them, if they were a ground block.

 

So yeah. They WERE permanent, even if they were destructable. I also placed them on walls, just because I could, but more on houses I didnt intend to keep

 

Please Roland You should know me better. I don't abuse bugs, don't exploit ai and so on. I like realism (maybe a bit too much) and I was always someone against avoiding hordenight and so on. Why do you suddenly think that I want the spikes only to abuse them?

[bachgh]

My post seems late because I should have made it a long time ago. Anyway, as an insane hardcore runner in older versions. I find A17 quite worrying.

 

It took me a week since the day a17 was launched to adapt to all the changes. As a veteran builder and Killing Floor player, I came up with strategies that work. However, the strategies and builds that I came up with hinted some underlying problems:

- In order to survive and save resources, prioritise agility and melee blunt weapons then kite bloodmoon hordes (my current setting is 12 zombies per player to prevent my computer from going kaput but I've handled worse in Killing Floor 1 & 2 so a bigger number should not be a problem) then slowly level up.

OR

- Exploit the AI and make a certain type of path to avoid triggering area destruction.

 

Now, my friends do now share my skill and passion for the game so the steep initial learning curve quickly turned them away from the game and I ended up playing SP by myself. It has got boring very quickly because I have to go through a checklist of safety measure before entering a POI or prefab alone.

Building base was an entertainment in earlier alphas because we could literally have fun with it. Now, casual builders are forced to learn and exploit the AI and it almost kills the sandbox element of the game (nobody loves having everything they've built destroyed). Consequently, I end up being the builder in every MP games with my friends.

Looking back, I feel that A17 is like an unorganised mixture of every single zombie games I have come across. It seems like it has lost its niche of being a sandbox, the very thing that got me and friends to buy the game.

My suggestions:

-Please see of you can release a 'vanilla version' with a simpler SP system (you only need to buy the 'mother' skill for an increased price and benefit from all the sub-skills OR just use the old SP system). The vanilla version should also use old AI to allow casual builders to have fun and be immune from future updates (default stable version).

-Not everyone goes to a 'change management' course. It is easy for cocky players to tell others to man-up and adapt. One however cannot chase one radical change after another (it's just not humanly possible) and developers should know this and make the changes less radical in future alphas.

 

I almost never post on any forum but I think people who have left without saying anything deserve to have their voices heard. As someone who love this game, I wish devs would bring glory to it again. Have a good day!

[Viktoriusiii]

*snip*

This. I mean I know the devs know better than the players, since they don't play the game, so this man is obviously wrong.

But I as a player have agree. While Rolands mod fixes the most insane issues and they ARE working on A.I. The fact that the devs do not acknowledge that this Alpha was a blunder and a mess of unorganized, unbalanced and unfun changes is worrying.

Yes some players have fun with it. That is great. But if 50% of your playerbase say its gotten so much worse that they actively give it a negative review (and even the positive ones complain, if you look through them), then something is wrong.

 

If only they would come out and say "hey look guys, this update was pretty crappy, but we felt like we had to release an alpha because it was so long, even though it wasn't finished. A18 will be what we wished A17 could have been, please be patient and maybe try out some mods that fix the mistakes of this alpha. Meanwhile feel free to give feedback, we will listen closely!"

 

They go out saying "dying on that hill"; "I don't play it but its better!"; "sales are up so its obviously good!" and more.

This is why I lost faith. Maybe A18 will rekindle my passion for the games development... but A17 damaged it heavily.

[meganoth]

If only they would come out and say "hey look guys, this update was pretty crappy, but we felt like we had to release an alpha because it was so long, even though it wasn't finished. A18 will be what we wished A17 could have been, please be patient and maybe try out some mods that fix the mistakes of this alpha. Meanwhile feel free to give feedback, we will listen closely!"

 

You mean like https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984859&viewfull=1#post984859

 

and

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984908&viewfull=1#post984908 ?

[Viktoriusiii]

You mean like https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984859&viewfull=1#post984859

 

and

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984908&viewfull=1#post984908 ?

 

Well it is nice to read a... more A17 critical post of madmole. Its still not as open as I wished it to be, but I also understand saying "this was ♥♥♥♥ yo check back in a year" is not helping anyone

So yeah... like this... just half a year earlier, when I told them this was going to be a bust. But back then (and because I go overboard a little in my rants, also today) I was called a hater who wants 7d2d to fail and that all I said was just temporary and that people just made a rukkas because they are bored or just want the attention. Some things they actually changed more in line with what I said, but overall I was ignored or ridiculed when I told them that 32% on steam is actual horsedung.

 

 

So yeah. Good job madmole. I wish this would have come a bit earlier (also don't compare it to A13 A13 was buggy and unbalanced but overall still allright, A17 is on a completely differnt level of f*** ups ), but I will say that I am happy that the team acknowledges it.

 

also this:

This looks promising. I must admit i don't check through the DEV Diary thread, mostly due to the amount of messages posted there (not enough time to check it all daily).

[Khulkhuum]

You mean like https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984859&viewfull=1#post984859

 

and

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?111778-Alpha-18-Dev-Diary!!&p=984908&viewfull=1#post984908 ?

 

This looks promising. I must admit i don't check through the DEV Diary thread, mostly due to the amount of messages posted there (not enough time to check it all daily). This also confirms what i was talking about way way back: BE PATIENT PEOPLE!

 

It's not like TFP does not listen (like many people tend to say), it's not like they don't know where the problems lay (look at what they're focused on), it's not like they are stuck up on their own vision (many decisions leaning towards what people say, but they have to shift through everything) and most importantly, it's not like they can fix everything in a matter of a couple days.

 

Things didn't go as planned for A17? Sit back, enjoy the show as much as you can or indulge in something else before A18 drops. Take a few deep breaths, relax and let them work. Big things require large amounts of time.

[meganoth]

After some thinking I have to change my opinion somewhat about base building, I can see where the different views come from.

 

In a way A17 AI really limits base building more than previous alphas, especially for beginners and people more interested in style than function. But it also allows more in the way of functional builds for experienced players and players more interested in function than style. THAT is in my opinion the big difference.

 

In A16 it didn't matter that much how the horde base looked, it could be styled after the opera house in Sydney or the Eiffel Tower and still be an excellent horde base, you just needed some place to shoot from on all sides, optionally a melee cage and lots of basic spike traps around. Style over function, necessary knowledge needed about the AI very low.

 

In A17 function became more important. You need to experiment and know stuff like the relative strengths of a wall against a trap filled corridor. Less Minecraft, more Factorio, more tower defense at the cost of sandbox. One could even argue that before A17 tower defense was only rudimentary implemented since it didn't matter where you placed your traps, just that you placed a lot of them.

 

In a way 7D2D A17 became a little more like a "Dark Souls" of creative building games, where it is expected that the novice learns through failing.