Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[RipClaw]

- no loot after bloodmoon horde. It was a pleasure in A16.4 to look for rewards after a difficult night and let me say... rewarding. In A17 you just should hope that the night will finish

 

I'd even say that loot in general is a problem. When you could loot the zombies you had the chance for good loot with every single zombie. Now the zombies rarely drop anything and in most cases it is hardly worth the effort.

It's even worse if you go into bigger POIs at a higher gamestage. You fight your way through the masses of zombies with the hope of good loot and at the end you get a few rounds of ammunition and a few crappy guns which you can now produce yourself in better quality. So it's no wonder that many people now use the back entrance to bypass most zombies.

 

- standard zs are now killing machine with radar. In A16.4 zs were rightly dumb they follow a casual path because as the lore says zs do not have working brains now it may even be considered similar to battlefield because zs tracks you everywhere and even will flow alltogheter in the weak spot of your base. What a frustration to see dozen zs during bm horde run for miles just to reach the weak spot created in your defence... how they even know that there is one? No suspense in A17: you have a weak spot they for sure will find it. In A16.4 you were hoping in A17 you must consider a fact the entering: what to do WHEN they'll enter because for sure they'll do. There is no point nor adventure in doing your base on a mountain or under the surface: they'll enter anyway so no point in exploring or changing base location

 

You can use the zombie's intelligence against them. I have less problems with that but what annoys me is this destruction mode.

It seems to be used as a universal solution. If a zombie gets fall damage then he goes into the destruction mode. If the path is too long, he goes into destruction mode. If he can't reach the target he goes into the destruction mode.

 

- unbalanced quests: the quests were added as we asked thank you. Unfortunately the reward received is already useless when the player reach the minimum level needed to do even the easy ones. Maybe I'm not an action games player but... no and what about the so called quest area? There is a quest area: that is a tower defense game and the immersion by doing that is killed

 

I can only agree with you. The quests don't bring really good rewards. I recently did a tier 5 quest and spent the whole day clearing the hospital of zombies. The rewards included 30 shots of shotgun ammo and some Q2 armor parts. That's just a joke.

[mr.natural]

The Fun Pimps who make their living selling the game ?

 

 

 

Right now, it's more like "Die a lot until you adapt."

 

I've adapted to the new game but it's really not as much fun as it used to be.

 

 

TFP are not targeting those flashplayer type of players.

 

And the older versions of 7d2d are stil available, pick the one you like most.

 

But I must admit that A17.2 is too unbalanced and the borked RWG s*cks big time. So I play mods now instead of complaining about the obvious. I know that the next update will be better.

Don't get old too quickly (reluctance to change) and step out of your comfort zone, be creative, enjoy.

[RipClaw]

TFP are not targeting those flashplayer type of players.

 

I don't think any of us know what kind of players the fun pimps are targeting.

 

Many players who complain now have invested thousands of hours in the game. You can hardly blame them for not having patience. But you already notice the frustration with some players that the game has changed so much.

 

Some Youtubers who have been playing the game for years have stopped their Let's Play series because they were so frustrated how the game changed that they just didn't enjoy it anymore.

 

And the older versions of 7d2d are stil available, pick the one you like most.

 

That's what some players did. But it's not a good sign if people prefer to go back to an older version with worse graphics instead of playing the new version.

 

But I must admit that A17.2 is too unbalanced and the borked RWG s*cks big time. So I play mods now instead of complaining about the obvious.

 

Sure I could mod anything I don't like but that doesn't really help a new player. He won't install mods immediately when he plays the game for the first time.

 

I know that the next update will be better.

 

You mean you're hoping the next version will be better. But surely you can't be there because you don't know what will change.

I thought at the beginning that the Alpha 17 would be like the Alpha 16 with better graphics but I didn't expect such radical changes.

 

Don't get old too quickly (reluctance to change) and step out of your comfort zone, be creative, enjoy.

 

The comfort zone is not called that for nothing. There it is simply comfortable and one feels well.

 

Where's your comfort zone? Imagine the Fun Pimps would cut the part you enjoy the most. There you would be certainly not enthusiastic.

[meganoth]

You mean you're hoping the next version will be better. But surely you can't be there because you don't know what will change.

I thought at the beginning that the Alpha 17 would be like the Alpha 16 with better graphics but I didn't expect such radical changes.

 

The perk change was added relatively late but no loot from zombies and changed weapon system were announced quite early iirc so you should have known that the game would change in what you call radical ways.

 

As far as the plans for A18 are known they want to add lots of items, mods and legendary items, (addressing two of the three complaints you voiced in your previous post by the way), and fix RWG. If that is what Mr.Natural doesn't like about A17.2 then he might be right to be optimistic.

 

The comfort zone is not called that for nothing. There it is simply comfortable and one feels well.

 

Where's your comfort zone? Imagine the Fun Pimps would cut the part you enjoy the most. There you would be certainly not enthusiastic.

 

Lets call it the complacency zone. Its not called that for nothing . No, seriously, anybody who bought the game in the middle of alpha development should be aware that the game might still change a lot. Steam points this out, but no matter how big the letters are set, people have to experience it to ultimately know what that means. If someone has a relatively narrow taste in game mechanics or is change-averse or builds a "comfort" zone around him then EA is a hard place to be.

 

You can't buy an EA game (except if it already is in the beta phase) in the safe knowledge that you will get just more of the same and polished. Instead (and that is clearly stated by steam) you should only buy EA if you are happy about the game as it is at that moment. It could be the last version ever or it could be the only version that does suit your tastes.

[mr.natural]

Thank you meganoth, excactly my points elaborated.

[Roland]

Sure I could mod anything I don't like but that doesn't really help a new player. He won't install mods immediately when he plays the game for the first time.

 

New players aren’t desiring to mod. Most of the positive reviews are coming from new players who have no nostalgic comparisons coloring their enjoyment. Most of the negative reviews from new players are regarding performance. The radical changes made in A17 aren’t driving new players away or forcing them to have to mod. I haven’t read a single review from a brand new player regarding digging zombies or the perk system. That all comes from old players.

[FishStyk]

I found myself watching markapliers playthrough of 7d2d. Back then the game was on alpha 4 and still quite rough. Despite how rough the game was back then, watching these playthroughs reminded me of what I really used to love about the game, which has been lost somewhere between a4 and a17. Bit by bit the FP seem to be turning the game from a survival sandbox game to a traditional RPG. Now we have vendors, quests, skill points and seem to be moving towards some sort of fallout like RPG. Don’t get me wrong, I like fallout, but I already have fallout. There are tons of good RPG’s out there. I’m beginning to think the great game FP made was just a fluke, and they’ve no idea what made it successful.

 

As far as the arguments of comfort zones and changing betas, those arguments are ridiculous. If you want to disregard criticism of the game, fine, do so, but don’t pathologize those you disagree with or pretend you know why we’re being critical. That’s like me saying you like the game because you are a fan boy who can’t think for himself.

[FishStyk]

New players aren’t desiring to mod. Most of the positive reviews are coming from new players who have no nostalgic comparisons coloring their enjoyment. Most of the negative reviews from new players are regarding performance. The radical changes made in A17 aren’t driving new players away or forcing them to have to mod. I haven’t read a single review from a brand new player regarding digging zombies or the perk system. That all comes from old players.

 

Fair point, but another way of looking at it is that many of those that have more information, how the game used to be and how the game is now, think the game was better the old way. The new players, without a frame of reference, are fine with the new gameplay, but they may well like the older game play better if they could play it. You're putting more trust in the assessment of those with the least information. That's seems unwise.

[meganoth]

As far as the arguments of comfort zones and changing betas, those arguments are ridiculous. If you want to disregard criticism of the game, fine, do so, but don’t pathologize those you disagree with or pretend you know why we’re being critical. That’s like me saying you like the game because you are a fan boy who can’t think for himself.

 

I know why people who wanted a survival sandbox for example don't like 7D2D anymore: Because when 7D2D was only a survival sandbox (without RPG and just minimal tower defense) in earlier alphas they saw exactly the game they wanted. BUT it was an unfinished game with the RPG and tower defense features still missing.

 

This is about different tastes. Early alphas drew lots of sandbox players in, players whose taste isn't served exactly with what 7D2D is now. That doesn't mean the taste of those old players is wrong, but it also doesn't mean their taste is what 7D2D has to look like in the end.

 

And there are lots of "old" players who like what 7D2D has become. It seems their comfort zone is big enough to have liked the old 7D2D but also the current mix. Or they have an easier time to adapt or they simply are less discriminating. The answer is probably different for each person.

[Roland]

Fair point, but another way of looking at it is that many of those that have more information, how the game used to be and how the game is now, think the game was better the old way. The new players, without a frame of reference, are fine with the new gameplay, but they may well like the older game play better if they could play it. You're putting more trust in the assessment of those with the least information. That's seems unwise.

 

Except I'm not talking about causality. TFP isn't looking to new players to decide how they design the game. They are looking to themselves and their own roadmap. It isn't their trust in the assessment of any group of players that is driving development. Development by a committee of 1000s isn't their goal.

 

I'm just pointing out that the reaction (not cause) of the design changes in A17 shows that fresh eyes don't necessarily see them as bad or unfun.

[RipClaw]

The perk change was added relatively late but no loot from zombies and changed weapon system were announced quite early iirc so you should have known that the game would change in what you call radical ways.

 

I didn't follow the developer forum but the videos Mad Mole published about the Alpha 17 were all about the look at the beginning.

 

The first video that showed the weapons mods was at the end of march. It was clear that the mods would be added but not that the weapon parts would be removed. And especially not that weapons without mods are much weaker. The mods that were presented first were different triggers, a magazine extender and a scope. I didn't hear anything about that the damage was affected and in the video it was never shown.

 

In the video he released in the middle of April last year the zombies could still be looted. In the video he released at the end of august it was mentioned for the first time that zombies can't be looted anymore. This was also added to the developer diary at the end of august.

Also it became clear that the zombies will not be harvested any more and that we will not get any more bones. At that time the same concerns were expressed that are now boiling up in the forum again and again.

 

As far as the plans for A18 are known they want to add lots of items, mods and legendary items, (addressing two of the three complaints you voiced in your previous post by the way), and fix RWG. If that is what Mr.Natural doesn't like about A17.2 then he might be right to be optimistic.

 

We know the legendary items are coming but you don't know what they will bring. If these are just painted weapons with ridiculous bonus effects, that won't change the problem.

 

And as for the mods, I hope that there will finally be more mods for tools instead of just for weapons. I'm sick and tired of guns. Now the builders should get some love again.

 

Lets call it the complacency zone. Its not called that for nothing . No, seriously, anybody who bought the game in the middle of alpha development should be aware that the game might still change a lot. Steam points this out, but no matter how big the letters are set, people have to experience it to ultimately know what that means. If someone has a relatively narrow taste in game mechanics or is change-averse or builds a "comfort" zone around him then EA is a hard place to be.

 

You can't buy an EA game (except if it already is in the beta phase) in the safe knowledge that you will get just more of the same and polished. Instead (and that is clearly stated by steam) you should only buy EA if you are happy about the game as it is at that moment. It could be the last version ever or it could be the only version that does suit your tastes.

 

I know some Early Access games and I wouldn't know of any game where the orientation would have changed so much. Usually only new content is added in this phase but the general orientation is already clear.

 

Also the Youtuber I was talking about have been involved in the development since several Alpha versions but they haven't experienced such changes yet.

 

Some players probably came to the game via Let's Plays. They're not interested in what's on an old Kickstarter page or anywhere in a description. They judge by what they saw.

I also saw it for the first time on Youtube. I didn't see that the players just walked around and killed zombies all the time or that they fought for their lives. They built at the base and just had fun. And that's what I miss most about Alpha 17. Just having fun.

[FishStyk]

I'm just pointing out that the reaction (not cause) of the design changes in A17 shows that fresh eyes don't necessarily see them as bad or unfun.

 

Understood, and I'm just pointing out that fun is relative and that the new eyes are making that assessment with less information.

 

If the game is fun now but was more fun before, that, in the end, will result in less players happy with the game.

[FishStyk]

This is about different tastes. … . That doesn't mean the taste of those old players is wrong, but it also doesn't mean their taste is what 7D2D has to look like in the end.

 

Agreed. It's FP's game and their risk/rewards gambled on these changes. IMO, the earlier sandbox design was what made 7d2d unique and so popular, but FP knows the numbers better than I. Maybe the sandbox game design wasn't drawing as much audience as I thought..?

 

My suspicion is that the new changes are hurting the game, and I've seen game designers stick to their own vision even at the cost of a products success before.. Hopefully they make good calls. All I can do at this time is provide candid feedback, as I'm not planning to start a game company just to make a better version of pre-alpha17 7d2d.

[meganoth]

We know the legendary items are coming but you don't know what they will bring. If these are just painted weapons with ridiculous bonus effects, that won't change the problem.

 

Since TFP didn't do the fun but unrealistic stuff with mods even though they could have, and have shied away from more interesting but more fantasy zombie types I think the chance that they will make borderlands type weapons is pretty slim. There are still lots of things they could do with legendary weapons:

1) simply base damage increase

2) increase of base accuracy, shooting speed... All the paramters you can improve with mods and perks could have an intrinsic bonus built into the weapon itself. Since you already (maybe crudingly) accept that as mods and perks you can't really fault it in a legendary weapon. (Hopefully the make the boni random)

3) Legendary weapons might have mods built in without blocking a mod slot, i.e. the sniper rifle with built in x8 scope and still 5 mods slots open

4) Legendary weapons might be able to have two mods of the same type installed. A special double barrel gun which allows two barrel type mods.

 

But yes, if realism is high on your priority list and depending on how much TFP does in that area legendaries could become a problem for you. But even in this case it will change the problem from item scarcity to believability for you.

 

And for many players there won't be a realism problem at all (speaking for me and at least 2 of the 3 friends I play with). So I really can say for me and my friends: Legendary weapons will improve the end game for us, with almost 100% certainty. The only realistic way how they could demolish the feature for us would be to make legendary stuff findable at every corner, and that would be easy to rectify with modding.

 

And as for the mods, I hope that there will finally be more mods for tools instead of just for weapons. I'm sick and tired of guns. Now the builders should get some love again.

 

Hope so. Armor also needs more mods. Maybe vehicles should get mods too(?). But even weapons have not enough mods for a complete game.

 

I know some Early Access games and I wouldn't know of any game where the orientation would have changed so much. Usually only new content is added in this phase but the general orientation is already clear.

 

Also the Youtuber I was talking about have been involved in the development since several Alpha versions but they haven't experienced such changes yet.

 

Some players probably came to the game via Let's Plays. They're not interested in what's on an old Kickstarter page or anywhere in a description. They judge by what they saw.

I also saw it for the first time on Youtube. I didn't see that the players just walked around and killed zombies all the time or that they fought for their lives. They built at the base and just had fun. And that's what I miss most about Alpha 17. Just having fun.

 

Yes. It seems many games really enter EA only for the beta phase or pretty late in alpha. EA only works if the players already have fun playing the game and the more complete a game is the easier it is to provide that. Experiments are done before EA behind closed doors. So 7D2D is certainly not a typical EA game. It still fits the description of what steams says EA is.

 

About your last paragraph: A17 is the first time I really started designing and building complete horde bases. In the time I don't build I kill as much zombies per hour as in previous alphas. I don't doubt you have less fun, but that is a personal thing between you and the game, there is no game mechanic that forces people to change the way how they play the game between A16 and A17. Survival became harder, sure, but that is part of a survival game, it wasn't really survival until now.

 

Did you ever try turning down difficulty or making zombies not run? Did you ever reduce block damage of zombies or increase the damage you make? (Did I suggest this to you before and you had a good reason why not and I forgot it? If yes, then sorry). Even the multi-zombie-block-damage-bonus can be turned off I think, so you can remove much of what makes zombies different now. You can change how hard survival is.

[Roland]

Understood, and I'm just pointing out that fun is relative and that the new eyes are making that assessment with less information.

 

If the game is fun now but was more fun before, that, in the end, will result in less players happy with the game.

 

People who are having fun typically don't think about how much fun they would've had if the current default were somehow different so for those who are having fun whether they have "complete information" or not is irrelevant. That they are having fun is all the info they need. It would take a third party to go and get in their face and explain that they aren't having as much fun as they think they are...

 

Agreed. It's FP's game and their risk/rewards gambled on these changes. IMO, the earlier sandbox design was what made 7d2d unique and so popular, but FP knows the numbers better than I. Maybe the sandbox game design wasn't drawing as much audience as I thought..?

 

My suspicion is that the new changes are hurting the game, and I've seen game designers stick to their own vision even at the cost of a products success before.. Hopefully they make good calls. All I can do at this time is provide candid feedback, as I'm not planning to start a game company just to make a better version of pre-alpha17 7d2d.

 

All they can do is follow their own vision. When that hurts sales the naysayers will point and say "See? They killed their own game" and the fans will point and say "This game is so niche and TFP never sold out to the masses!"

 

If TFP does listen to the majority who want it different and abandon their vision then the naysayers say" See? they sold out. They went mainstream to follow the money!" and the fans say "Wow, TFP listened to us"

[meganoth]

Maybe the sandbox game design wasn't drawing as much audience as I thought..?

 

Well, the orginal kickstarter page as the most reliable witness points to the fact that they never intended to make a relatively pure sandbox game. The sandbox was just one of the the first parts that was implemented. Roland also said this multiple times but he also said to use a wrench on mines, so nobody believes him anymore

 

If you are in doubt, read the kickstarter page. Really. Details may have changed from what the kickstarter promised, but they always wanted to do a genre-mix.

[Roland]

Roland also said this multiple times but he also said to use a wrench on mines, so nobody believes him anymore

 

I am so often misunderstood. I was always talking about A17.3. In A17.3 you will be able to pick up mines by using a wrench.

[FileMachete]

Have to agree to disagree a bit w you @meganoth on a17 changes not forcing gameplay changes.

 

Biggest one for me was the inability to melee defend a horde night base. Months later they've added options to, I guess, make something a16 like possible, but I haven't tested the settings.

And that's mainly due to the GS or zed's it calls, whichever, ramping too quickly so, along with the complete lack of incentive loot wise on horde nights, I wind up running myself out of town, heh.

 

Add that the significant majority of pois are now dungeons. Digging z's so now mines must be 40 or so blocks deep or ore mines starting at surface need a bunch more defensive work than previous.

 

Basically more than half the major things to do in-game are significantly different now than in a16, and not for the better, currently, imo.

 

Now fully agree that MM & TFPs have lately given some indications that apparently there's a lot coming that may well resolve/balance/polish some things, and that's great, looking forward to it.

 

But for me personally, well, a17 hasn't been all that much fun compared to a16. Which is ok. I've certainly recieved more than fair value, nor am I heading for the exit.

 

Peace

[meganoth]

Have to agree to disagree a bit w you @meganoth on a17 changes not forcing gameplay changes.

 

I meant that in the general sense, i.e. if you prefered building over scavenging, nothing prevents you from doing mostly building. If you prefered scavenging instead nothing prevents you from doing mostly scavenging.

Difficulty definitely has gone up but that is true for building AND scavenging. The only change I see is that in our co-op sessions we team up a lot more often. But I don't see that anyone of us has changed much, i.e. suddenly changed into a killer machine or started farming xp or hid himself somewhere. Generally everyone should have just turned down difficulty one step to be in a similar situation to A16. We didn't do that because we were playing at a difficulty that was one step too low already, the change in A17 was just the right fit your us

 

Biggest one for me was the inability to melee defend a horde night base. Months later they've added options to, I guess, make something a16 like possible, but I haven't tested the settings.

And that's mainly due to the GS or zed's it calls, whichever, ramping too quickly so, along with the complete lack of incentive loot wise on horde nights, I wind up running myself out of town, heh.

 

The fast ramping up of zombies in A17.1 was a bug and fixed. And if the game now still feels like it is ramping up too quickly, turn down the difficulty one step, this decreases GS immediately.

 

Add that the significant majority of pois are now dungeons. Digging z's so now mines must be 40 or so blocks deep or ore mines starting at surface need a bunch more defensive work than previous.

 

If you use an auger, then yes. If you use an axe, an ore mine starting at the surface does not feel much different from A16. This was at least my experience when I was operating a surface mine in our last co-op game.

 

PS: Since we talked about that previously: If you want to see the end result of our surface mine, I posted 3 pictures of the horde base we built down there eventually: https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?112326-New-Auger-Heat-and-its-Problems&p=959725#post959725 . We never put up any protection at the mine edge and even used augers a lot which gave us lots of screamer visits. In SP I probably would add protection and/or use axe though.

 

Basically more than half the major things to do in-game are significantly different now than in a16, and not for the better, currently, imo.

 

Now fully agree that MM & TFPs have lately given some indications that apparently there's a lot coming that may well resolve/balance/polish some things, and that's great, looking forward to it.

 

But for me personally, well, a17 hasn't been all that much fun compared to a16. Which is ok. I've certainly recieved more than fair value, nor am I heading for the exit.

 

Peace

[FileMachete]

I meant that in the general sense, i.e. if you prefered building over scavenging, nothing prevents you from doing mostly building. If you prefered scavenging instead nothing prevents you from doing mostly scavenging.

Difficulty definitely has gone up but that is true for building AND scavenging. The only change I see is that in our co-op sessions we team up a lot more often. But I don't see that anyone of us has changed much, i.e. suddenly changed into a killer machine or started farming xp or hid himself somewhere. Generally everyone should have just turned down difficulty one step to be in a similar situation to A16. We didn't do that because we were playing at a difficulty that was one step too low already, the change in A17 was just the right fit your us

 

ah, ok, fair point on choices. I was thinking a bit more granularly. Like previous starting game scavenging felt more 'natural' & was quicker, prior to all the dungeons. There are still a few scattered non-dungeon pois, but not enough imo. And as you said, it's still a viable choice in a17.

 

The fast ramping up of zombies in A17.1 was a bug and fixed. And if the game now still feels like it is ramping up too quickly, turn down the difficulty one step, this decreases GS immediately.

 

Now that you mention it you're right, it was a 17.1 game where I just said, "eh, enough" due to all the rads.

My current playthrough in 17.2 is quite strange since I decided to up xp to 200% till lvl 100. Think I was lvl ~115 for day 28 horde night; and it wasn't solid greenies even at a gs of 220 or so.

 

When I came back for a17exp, last 7dtd I'd played was WoW and Ravenhearst, so I actually upped difficulty a tick for stable.

Right now I'm back at default & been tweaking weapon stats to better fit my expectations.

 

If you use an auger, then yes. If you use an axe, an ore mine starting at the surface does not feel much different from A16. This was at least my experience when I was operating a surface mine in our last co-op game.

 

PS: Since we talked about that previously: If you want to see the end result of our surface mine, I posted 3 pictures of the horde base we built down there eventually: https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?112326-New-Auger-Heat-and-its-Problems&p=959725#post959725 . We never put up any protection at the mine edge and even used augers a lot which gave us lots of screamer visits. In SP I probably would add protection and/or use axe though.

 

It was the 17.1 game where I ran a pit mine. No auger, can't deal w the noise. Wound up with a full shoot-through r-concrete wall all around it due to screamers. To be fair though the mine was close to the base and the forges were drawing the screamers.

 

Now -that's- a pit! ha! (bet that has you grumbling about the ladder climb speed a wee bit huh? )

 

On diggers in general I'm mainly bothered by the range. I get that if they only sensed you up to say 10 blocks down, then what's the point, but then, to me, 40 blocks, and not bedrock, isn't much different other than aggravation factor.

I use to use a basement as main work area. Now I use the second floor. Never put anything important on first floor. I just fill it in entirely and only a mineshaft goes through it. No way am I going up and down 40+ blocks to tend forges, heh.

So I wind up w a cramped 5x5 work area on second floor. My choice of course.

[meganoth]

Now -that's- a pit! ha! (bet that has you grumbling about the ladder climb speed a wee bit huh? )

 

Yes and no, because the zombies were slow on ladders as well. So while they were trundling down the ladder as if inside a slow elevator we could snipe them like ducks on a conveyor belt in an amusement park . Great fun.

 

On diggers in general I'm mainly bothered by the range. I get that if they only sensed you up to say 10 blocks down, then what's the point, but then, to me, 40 blocks, and not bedrock, isn't much different other than aggravation factor.

I use to use a basement as main work area. Now I use the second floor. Never put anything important on first floor. I just fill it in entirely and only a mineshaft goes through it. No way am I going up and down 40+ blocks to tend forges, heh.

So I wind up w a cramped 5x5 work area on second floor. My choice of course.

 

Well, the reason for the bedrock loophole is probably that if you really really want a zombie-safe area you show that desire by going down those 40 blocks. It's an acceptable compromise because ore mining isn't good at bedrock anymore. We do that second floor workspace thingy as well.

[FileMachete]

Yes and no, because the zombies were slow on ladders as well. So while they were trundling down the ladder as if inside a slow elevator we could snipe them like ducks on a conveyor belt in an amusement park . Great fun.

 

ya know... you guys could dig out recesses in the corners and string electric fencing across for z's to fall through no idea if it would get triggered, but could be funny to see sparky's flying by

 

Well, the reason for the bedrock loophole is probably that if you really really want a zombie-safe area you show that desire by going down those 40 blocks. It's an acceptable compromise because ore mining isn't good at bedrock anymore. We do that second floor workspace thingy as well.

 

Good point. And it's not a _huge_ imposition now that I'm semi used to the ladder climb speed, heh.

Starter/early game it's a regular thing for me to dig the 40 down; it's actually easier in a way since digging down with a stone axe is actually the least painful way, and small rocks are really what you're after to make cobblestone.

This playthrough I had a flat-forehead moment and realized rather than having a surface strip mine for clay soil I could just dig out the clay under the base & then fill it back in with cobblestone. Helped to keep busy & productive the first few nights.

[meganoth]

ya know... you guys could dig out recesses in the corners and string electric fencing across for z's to fall through no idea if it would get triggered, but could be funny to see sparky's flying by

 

Ah, didn't think of that. Wrote it down and will test it.

 

Good point. And it's not a _huge_ imposition now that I'm semi used to the ladder climb speed, heh.

Starter/early game it's a regular thing for me to dig the 40 down; it's actually easier in a way since digging down with a stone axe is actually the least painful way, and small rocks are really what you're after to make cobblestone.

This playthrough I had a flat-forehead moment and realized rather than having a surface strip mine for clay soil I could just dig out the clay under the base & then fill it back in with cobblestone. Helped to keep busy & productive the first few nights.

 

That is another good idea. IF the base POI is structurally sound enough to not collapse. In a co-op game a man-made collapse of the craft base is enough for a month of jokes at your expense

[FishStyk]

All they can do is follow their own vision.

 

I disagree. All they can do is follow their own judgment, but that includes learning and adjusting their vision. Game design is a skill like any other, and can be developed and improved. There are game designers that build games for themselves, and hope/expect the players like what they built, and there are game designers that build games for their audience, learning and adjusting as they go.

 

Sure, any path they take will result in someone being unhappy and ranting at them (like I arguably have been doing), but the difference is that those that build fun games, either because they built a game for themselves that others liked or they built a game for their audience, are more successful and get to make more and better games. Those that do not either fail or remain stuck making niche games on shoe string budgets.

 

This is all FP’s prerogative, but they have options other than ‘follow their vision’.

 

I can't say if FP's new direction is right or wrong, nor do I know if they're building the game for themselves or their audience, or whether I'm among the audience they're targeting. What I do know is that there's no way for them to read my mind, so on the chance that I'm part of their target audience, and their willing to adjust course, I'm providing my input

[FileMachete]

Ah, didn't think of that. Wrote it down and will test it.

 

Was curious myself so just tested. Worked sometimes, and the, err, "fatties" seemed more likely to get shocked (blame TFPs!), but even then I don't think even 50% were triggering the fence

Only had one strung across a few blocks down from lip since test hole wasn't that deep.

You might see better results if you have a couple few for z's to fall through on their way down..?

 

That is another good idea. IF the base POI is structurally sound enough to not collapse. In a co-op game a man-made collapse of the craft base is enough for a month of jokes at your expense

 

Only a month? your crew is faaar kinder than my old one!