Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Spider]

Very well written feedback with very specific points. And I would agree with all of them. To bad no one will listen.

[SylenThunder]

Very well written feedback with very specific points. And I would agree with all of them. To bad no one will listen.

Especially when it's posted in the wrong forum.

 

Going to merge it into the feedback thread.

[Roland]

I love your game. I’ve played for over 3k hours. As much as I enjoy the game, recent design changes have very much diminished my enjoyment. Below I’ll attempt to explain the changes I’m objecting to and what effect they have on my experience. Please understand that this is just candid feedback, I still love the game.

 

Level Caps – I’ve played the game many ways. That’s one of the things I really enjoy is trying different approaches to surviving. Such experimentation often involves min/maxing along some specific path, like all armor/defense, all weapons/attack, all building/crafting, just run!!? The level caps pretty much kills this sort of experimentation. It forces me down path that the developer seems to want me to go. As much as I enjoy your game, I don’t care at all how you want me to play the game. By limiting my specialization and forcing me down specific paths, you’re simply removing my options and choice, which is what I value in an open world game in the first place. This is especially frustrating when I’m taking the builder/crafter path as by the existing level caps, my game doesn’t really even begin until level 10-15.

 

Thanks for the feedback. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think what you are referring to as level caps are what the devs refer to as level gates— the fact that you have to wait until you are a certain level to be able to purchase a perk. The good news is the TFP has listened and mostly agrees and plans to make changes to the progression in order to further facilitate specialization and two of those planned changes is to remove level gates and to decouple crafting quality tiers from intelligence.

 

Creature spawning/strength linked to level – In previous versions of the game, creature spawning, and strength was linked to time. The longer the game went, the more dangerous the creatures became. This created an engaging race against the clock. I needed to build and skill up as fast as I could to survive the coming threats. Further, this was customizable by the player. I could adjust the day cycle to introduce a more challenging experience, as with a reduced day cycle, I had less time to prepare. Or I could make the monsters and world conditions very unfavorable to me but increase the day cycle to give me more time to prepare. It was my choice and I could try different things. This also made a sort of sense in the world. I could believe that over time the creatures became stronger and more people became zombies, so life just got harder. This added to the immersion of a survival game. With the change of linking threat to level, I’m not racing against anything and there’s really nothing I can do to try to get ahead. It would probably be best if I just didn’t level up at all, as what’s the point. This also breaks immersion, as it makes no sense why creatures would automatically adjust to me. It feels like a game, not like an apocalypse.

 

The only reason you would notice the difference is if you are speeding through the progression and power leveling. If you play organically and don’t try to level quickly then it still actually feels like the game just gets harder over time. Average Joe who just sets objectives such as “establish a base” “gather materials” “explore” “do a loot run” etc. and who has never read the forums or looked at the code would most likely just assume things are getting harder over time.

 

You can’t do anything about your knowledge but you can stop playing the game like a race and instead of making “leveling up” your primary goal just play and let the leveling up happen when it happens.

 

This is important because TFP is fully invested in gamestages for this game. They might try something different for the next one but this is what we have for this one and it is mostly hardcoded in

 

Quest/Vendor – I get it that some people want quests and some signs of life in their apocalypse. I get it. It’s not for me, but in the past, I could just ignore it. I’d ignore/avoid the venders and scrap the quest. No harm, but with the recent level cap changes spending time near the vendor seems nearly mandatory. I just don’t have access to the things I need in the game any more without visiting the vendor. And of course, the game is a lot easier if one just takes the vendors quests. Once again, this feels like the game developers trying to force me down a path, trying to get me to play the game the way they want me to play it, rather than simply providing an apocalyptic playground I can enjoy as I wish. Again, I don’t mind the vendors and quests being there, It’s the changes that make the game near unplayable without interacting with them that I object to.

 

It’s more than some people. Quests and vendors are considered to be integral parts of the game by the devs and it’s only natural that the devs are going to put rewards and incentives in for making use of those things. They aren’t going to walk back from making quests and vendors necessary for obtaining certain items that can only be had by participating in that part of the game and I really believe they do have the majority of the player base on their side in this case. The game didn’t used to have them, true, but they were always planned. Bandits will be the same case.

 

This is precisely the scenario where mods will be your only solution. I really don’t see TFP putting an on/off switch in the menu for vendors. For those who want to play as the sole human left in the world you will have to mod that.

[Damocles]

Trader quests: that should be one of the typical gamestart options to turn off.

 

Trader on/off

Trader giving quests on/off.

 

----

 

I also dont like the gamestage system. It punishes player for progressing.

I would rather define easy (nature), medium (subburbs), hard (city-center) areas in the game, where the general location determines the difficulty and loot. Or even having a more difficult areas on the map, the more you travel east or so. (the map generator creating a "gamestage-biome map".)

If a player wants higher quality loot and resources, he needs to raid POIs in the harder areas.

 

As a "levelgate" and indication for new players, those harder areas could have a couple of feral zombies lurking around, signalling: dont go here until you are prepared.

 

This could even run in parallel with a level-linked gamestage, where the zombies dont gain more HP, abilities and damage, but rather have better abilities in pathfinding and sensing the player. (going from dumb zombies that try to walk straight lines and respond slow, to zombies that use all the now possible pathfinding tricks and are much more aware from a distance to the player walking about).

 

As for new players to the game: thats where the manually authored Navezgane map should determine the difficulty progression, by directing players to more and more difficult areas.

The randomly generated maps are targeted at more experienced players anyway.

[Roland]

I also dont like the gamestage system. It punishes player for progressing.....

 

....overly quickly.

 

This is a fact because it is designed specifically to allow people to level as quickly as they wish with the consequence that if they choose to level up overly quickly they will be facing tougher challenges sooner—maybe before they’re ready for them. Whether this is a punishment depends on the person. Some may want the extra challenge and so will rush in anticipation. Only those who rush for rushing’s sake but don’t want the built in consequence would see it as a punishment.

 

I progress in the game at a slower pace and don’t feel punished in the slightest. 😀

[Andi Koehn]

Not rushing for rushing's sake. You're rather forced to rush till at least lvl 40 to get basic things done like a forge and crappy iron tools now with perks and the level gating. You can't even say, ok, i'm somewhat set now, now let's take it easy. Take a break from looting and killing zeds, don't wanna level too fast. Cause what you gonna do then? Mining? Building? From that you gain so much xp, you'll be level 80 or 100 before you even realize. So the only rushing here is by game design. The player himself hasn't even a choice. Sure you can lower XP gain now but that's not what I'm talking about. Imo there's something wrong designwise.

[RipClaw]

I'm with you on this. The problem is not that you level too fast but that you don't set the points in the skills that the developers imagined when they set up gamestages.

 

People who are only interested in combat will always put their points in the skills they use in combat but if someone is not interested in combat he will distribute the points differently. But he still levels because he gets XP for everything.

 

When I go into the mine then I usually get out with 1-2 levels more just by mining resources. This has nothing to do with fighting but the gamestage is rising.

 

The formula for the gamestage is

 

( playerLevel + daysSurvived ) * gameDifficultyMultiplier

 

The gamestage rises even if I don't do anything because it is also linked to the time. If I was just standing on the spot for 300 days, my gamestage would have increased by the same amount as if I had made 300 levels on one day.

[meganoth]

Not rushing for rushing's sake. You're rather forced to rush till at least lvl 40 to get basic things done like a forge and crappy iron tools now with perks and the level gating.

 

If you need lvl 40 to get a forge and crappy iron tools then you must be very new to this game. Anyone who played this game with eyes open knows 3 ways to have most iron tools around lvl 10: trader, quest reward, svavenging. Take your pick.

[Andi Koehn]

I know all that. That's not the point

[Roland]

I know all that. That's not the point

 

Here IS the point. There is living proof in the form of actual players playing the game and progressing and making choices that matter that shows that the game doesn’t have to be played in the manner in which you are claiming players are being forced to play.

 

Yes, almost everything you do adds experience and increases gamestage but not to an extreme degree at all unless....you are doing something extreme to ramp it up.

 

For context here is an example: You want to loot a group of buildings you found late in the day yesterday and they are about 2km from your base. Do you run straight there avoiding and ignoring any zombies you see or do you stop and kill each one along the way for the xp? What if you see a wandering horde passing off to the side unaware of you? Do you go chase it down and kill all the zombies for the xp? In the building do you kill every single zombie for the xp or just the ones that are necessary or life threatening?

 

How about this? I sometimes go a couple of days while I’m building my base without killing a single zombie because I already killed the local guys and nothing new has respawned. That’s two days of improving my survivability without significantly increasing my gamestage due to leveling up. Would you do that or would you feel you needed to stop building to go hunt zombies for xp during those days?

[RipClaw]

Yes, almost everything you do adds experience and increases gamestage but not to an extreme degree at all unless....you are doing something extreme to ramp it up.

 

Extreme seems to be a very subjective concept.

 

Is it extreme to spend the night in the mine and come home with an inventory full of resources ?

Is it extreme to flatten a hill to have more space for the base ?

Is it extreme to build a base out of about 1000 rebar frames filled with concrete mix ?

 

I probably got more XP from these activities than from all the zombies I killed and I don't see it as extreme, just as part of the game.

 

Not that I mind, but if you think you can get a lot of XP in A17 only by killing zombies, you missed the updates to 17.1 and 17.2.

The passive XP was massively raised and the higher you are in the level the more passive XP you get.

 

And you've also forgotten that not only the level increase pushes the gamestage up, but also the time that passes. In the formula for the gamestage the time you played and the level are added together. To eliminate the influence of time you would have to kill yourself every 2 days.

[Andi Koehn]

I actually play the way you described Roland, trying not to level like crazy by leaving zeds doin their zed thing. Once I had my forges up and running I haven't been out looting for days, just building, upgrading, gathering resources and as RipClaw said, i am actually leveling faster than being out looting pois or being on a killing spree all day long from dawn to sunset. So, what do I get from this next time I dare to come too close to a poi? Most likely dozens of raging ferals and glowys who all want a tasty piece of my fat arse.

So the thing is, and that's my point, you can play any style you want, at the end of the day you get the same result.

[Roland]

Yes, you can gain xp from all activities and you can also adjust a slider to reduce the amount earned to 75% or 50% or even 25% if it is going too fast for you. There is also a bug that brings top tier zombies into the game too soon and that bug hasn't been fixed in the public version if I am remembering correctly.

[SyKo]

I'm dropping a post here to report what I see as a horrible bug that's plagued the game for the last couple of years now.

 

There is no way to turn Distant Terrain off.

 

This is ridiculous at this point. Even the out-of-date console versions of this game have a toggle option in the menu to turn the Distant Terrain off and put the "fog in the distance" back. How hard is it, honestly, to include a simple option to turn it on and off in the menu? I've rolled the game back and experimented with this. In A14 and older version, I get anywhere from 85-120+ frames while playing during normal load. During hordes, that number will stay in the 55-75 frame range.

 

Ever since A15 though, it's 20-45 frames during normal play, dropping to as low as 5-20 frames during hordes. This is abysmal, and it's all being caused by this Distant Terrain feature, that honestly, a lot of us do not want on to begin with. It takes away from the game in many ways. I like the mystery of not being able to crawl up a hill and see for 5kms in all directions. I don't want to know where the towns are on day 1. I do not want to see for miles and miles, to the point that I can tell you if the house way over there, on the other side of that mountain range has curtains on the windows or not. -.-

 

It takes away from my immersion, but worse, it absolutely tanks my frames. I'm losing 60-80 frames because of a feature you refuse to let me simply turn off. You then allow console players, since the introduction of the feature, to do exactly what I can't, and I'm on a damn PC. This makes absolutely no sense. The PC version should, by default, be the more customizable version of any game.

 

This is ruining my experience, and in many ways, making the game damn-near almost unplayable at this point. Hordes are slide shows for me now, and there's no reason for a simple on/off toggle solution not being implemented. I don't want some stupid 3D hologram that ruins my experience and framerate in the process.

 

On a side note, please fix the chunk corruption issues. We've randomly had 5 different chunks so far (Day 218 currently) that have completely reset. We're tired of fighting off zeds to defend our mega base, only to have the game randomly decide to just destroy a 16x16 chunk of it because, meh, it's a Tuesday. We're playing wack-a-mole here, running around repairing the server.

 

Anyway, sorry if this is in the wrong thread, but these 2 issues seriously need to be addressed, and I don't see a better place to bitch about it, lol. Thanks in advance.

[RipClaw]

So, what do I get from this next time I dare to come too close to a poi? Most likely dozens of raging ferals and glowys who all want a tasty piece of my fat arse.

 

There was a bug in the A17 that got radioactive zombies in large numbers too early. In 17.2 this was fixed and it's not as bad as it was with 17.1. But the feral zombies can still make your life difficult if you don't have the right skills and the right equipment. It took me some time and some deaths to adapt.

 

Feral and radioactive zombies are still a threat, but I can get by if I go into a POI.

 

I've set some rules for looting that I try to follow:

 

I won't loot anything until I'm sure all the zombies in the POI are dead. This way I avoid being encumbered.

 

Before I enter a POI I try to lure as many zombies as possible outside. There they are easier to fight.

 

I always open escape routes outside to be able to escape at any time.

 

When I flee I always take the way I came to avoid waking up more zombies.

[FishStyk]

I apologize for posting in the wrong thread. Thank you for moving it.

Regarding level caps, yes, I got the term wrong. I meant level gates. Thanks for the correction.

 

Regarding gamestage, I agree that it is aggravated by the level gates as the game design currently necessitates power leveling if one is interested in base building/crafting, my primary point was in regards to how one interacts with the game world.

 

This is just my opinion, but the game world should have a progression arch of its own (maybe one users can customize via map settings) and the player should have effect in the game world based on the players actions. The progression of the world being tied to the player’s level removes the adversarial relationship between the player and the world, where the player is attempting to survive in a world that’s naturally hostile and inconsiderate, replacing it with a world that shapes itself to the player’s progress, to the goal of providing a consistently challenging experience. I, personally, don’t want a survival game that’s trying to keep me challenged, I want one that’s trying to kill me!?

 

I still like the game though!

 

Gamestage may be something that’s not going away. I’d prefer otherwise, but I’m content with my feedback having been heard and considered.

[Damocles]

About the character controller: I think the angle of the slope he is able to climb should be lower than now. Its still possible to walk up pretty steep cliffs. This makes the player be able to travel terrain that should not be that easily accessible. There is always the fallback to use frames for certain obstacles, or dig out steps with the shovel.

 

Limiting the ability to climb will make reaching certain high positions in the terrain more interesting.

(The zombies should then have the same limits as the player here)

[meganoth]

About the character controller: I think the angle of the slope he is able to climb should be lower than now. Its still possible to walk up pretty steep cliffs. This makes the player be able to travel terrain that should not be that easily accessible. There is always the fallback to use frames for certain obstacles, or dig out steps with the shovel.

 

Limiting the ability to climb will make reaching certain high positions in the terrain more interesting.

(The zombies should then have the same limits as the player here)

 

To add to this, zombie speed should also be affected by walking up or down (similar to the PC). Only then is height a tactical advantage and for example building a castle on a hill not counter-productive.

[Maguvas]

Hi,

I'm one of the guys disappointed by A17 so I kindly must say sorry to the devs but I lost the faith.

 

Why did it happen? Because A17 removed all the suspense which was in A16.4 by converting everything in pretty consolidated game mechanics. All of that with the attached mantra: don't ask about performance, we know... eh ok but one day I'll retire from work for age and I do not know if that day my body will be able to play

 

So what a fan can say? Nothing... or change gane of course.

 

Here follows a list of things which in my opinion killed suspense and fascination:

 

- no loot after bloodmoon horde. It was a pleasure in A16.4 to look for rewards after a difficult night and let me say... rewarding. In A17 you just should hope that the night will finish

 

- standard zs are now killing machine with radar. In A16.4 zs were rightly dumb they follow a casual path because as the lore says zs do not have working brains now it may even be considered similar to battlefield because zs tracks you everywhere and even will flow alltogheter in the weak spot of your base. What a frustration to see dozen zs during bm horde run for miles just to reach the weak spot created in your defence... how they even know that there is one? No suspense in A17: you have a weak spot they for sure will find it. In A16.4 you were hoping in A17 you must consider a fact the entering: what to do WHEN they'll enter because for sure they'll do. There is no point nor adventure in doing your base on a mountain or under the surface: they'll enter anyway so no point in exploring or changing base location

 

- unbalanced quests: the quests were added as we asked thank you. Unfortunately the reward received is already useless when the player reach the minimum level needed to do even the easy ones. Maybe I'm not an action games player but... no and what about the so called quest area? There is a quest area: that is a tower defense game and the immersion by doing that is killed

 

- physics: 25 zs cannot attack in the same time the same block. There is not physical space, volume call it as you prefer

 

- performance anti immersion: in A16.4 I used trees also to filter hordes. In A17 for each tree I'm seeding I'm asking to myself: omg will the game be playable with a new tree born? But I know: performance are not important we'll look at it someday you player play and don't ask. Ok if you say so...

 

- still no plot: a generic plot would have given at least some immersion

 

- in A16.4 the minibike is a conquest now you enable vehicles and so on. Conquer something with exploration is a thing, enable something and then spend hours to look for components in my mind is a whole different world. To better gave you the idea a scene from Jurassic Park: the t-rex when you give it a sheep it ignores; when he must hunt it then the sheep has no luck. A17 is a sheep given to players; A16.4 is hunting to have the sheep. To me this kills immersion. Of course is up to me

 

So to recap: it seems to me that 7d2d from an adventure game with a fascinating atmosphere and full of suspense is going to be an action game where you kill zombie soldiers and you loot just to kill better. That's what A17 has done at my eyes. Nothing versus that: I respect the choice but I don't like it.

 

Thank you anyway for this great game.

[mr.natural]

For those complaining about leveling too quickly because of killing zombies, try the perk "from the shadows" and use the mufler mods. You can loot entire POI's, (almost) without being detected. Just my 2 cents.

 

And it is a thrill to do, believe me. I just tried it some time now. Never thought it was that good.

 

(Adapt, don't dictate)

[Damocles]

Regarding new players and the skill-tree: for the first couple of levels there could be a "suggested skill" to pick for new players to survive.

 

It requires some experience to know how important cooking and the intelligence perks are for example. new player might miss-spec too early and spend their points on combat perks alone.

 

The information could pop up once for each level (maybe the first 8) when the skill overview is being opened.

[mr.natural]

Regarding new players and the skill-tree: for the first couple of levels there could be a "suggested skill" to pick for new players to survive.

 

It requires some experience to know how important cooking and the intelligence perks are for example. new player might miss-spec too early and spend their points on combat perks alone.

 

The information could pop up once for each level (maybe the first 8) when the skill overview is being opened.

 

after dying a couple of times and a few restarts later they'll figger it out

 

Still difficult to state which are "essential" as it depends on playstyle.

[RipClaw]

after dying a couple of times and a few restarts later they'll figger it out

 

It is more likely that players are so frustrated that they delete the game from the disc, give a negative rating and advise others against the game. I've seen players spend thousands of hours on "7 Days to die" but now give up frustrated because it's not the game they loved so much anymore.

 

Still difficult to state which are "essential" as it depends on playstyle.

 

It would help if the FP could provide the perks with proper descriptions. For example if Lucky Looter says "Adds 50 to loot bonus" you don't know what the 50 means because you don't understand how the loot system works.

 

Or you don't see any changes when you invest points. If I hit a zombie with the club before and he doesn't even flinch and later I send the same zombie 3m through the air then I see the change but if I'm dealing with random events I don't see any change like e.g. Intrinsic Immunity.

[mr.natural]

Who needs players with such a short attention span? And for the others, adapt or die

[RipClaw]

Who needs players with such a short attention span?

 

The Fun Pimps who make their living selling the game ?

 

And for the others, adapt or die

 

Right now, it's more like "Die a lot until you adapt."

 

I've adapted to the new game but it's really not as much fun as it used to be.