Sledgehammer suggestion for Intellect

[Euzio]

So while watching JaWoodle's series on the stun baton and him mentioning that the Stun Baton is essentially a Tier 2 weapon, it got me thinking about the balance of the melee weapons in game. Right now for each tree, all of them do have some form of melee weapon that goes from Tier 1 to Tier 3 with the exception of the Intellect tree. 

 

To that end, my idea would be that considering that Strength is the only tree that has 2 melee weapons on it, how about making the sledgehammer be part of the Intellect tree as a Tier 3 version of the Batons? Would require some changes to it and a little bit of balancing but I think it might work out well. Since it would be an upgrade of the Stun Baton, they could make the Steel Sledgehammer have the electrifying properties of the Stun Baton. Basically turn it into some form of electrically charged hammer. 

 

Thoughts? 

 

PS: It might be really interesting for players to have the power of Thor for those in the intellect tree. Wield a big hammer which can zap things. XD

[BlackcurrantYT]

There is unused code for the plasma baton in the game files. I think they'll finish it sooner or later.

 

...7 Days To Die/Data/Config/items.xml - Search for “meleeWpnBatonT3PlasmaBaton”

[Suxar]

The sledgehammer should stay in force. It's not an intelligent weapon at all. And as an improvement to the electroshock, it's not an improvement at all. The ASPD is too different.

[8_Hussars]

10 hours ago, Euzio said:

So while watching JaWoodle's series on the stun baton and him mentioning that the Stun Baton is essentially a Tier 2 weapon,

 

Thoughts?

The Stun Baton seems to be a T2/T3 weapon.  Excellent early and mid game performance and tails off a very little at the end.  Most end game melee weapons seem to do the job with the books and perks of course.  Sure, lots of the weapons need a final balance pass as well.

Jawoodle has dumped on the Stun Baton so often for so long, he has created his own meme in the process, and believes it.  Currently, he is one shotting dogs and two shotting ferals all over the place, but that's still "underwhelming" for a Day 9 (no guns run).

[warmer]

7 hours ago, Suxar said:

The sledgehammer should stay in force. It's not an intelligent weapon at all. And as an improvement to the electroshock, it's not an improvement at all. The ASPD is too different.

Agreed. It takes zero intellect to move a heavy object on a stick. A stun baton makes sense for the maintenance aspect alone.

[stample]

Stun baton is T2, and the Repulsor mod turns it into a T3 weapon.  No other weapon gets a mod that turns it from single target into a semi-AE weapon.  I'd say intellect is easier in this respect, because installing the mod upgrades the weapon so substantially, and you don't even need to craft a new T3 weapon to get it.  No other weapon line gets an "automatic 1-shot" mechanic either, which Batons get through the Medic perk line.

[Adam the Waster]

I think more tiers the better

 

Wooden baton

Pipe baton

Police baton 

Stun baton

Plasma baton 

I personally love the stun baton it's not as strong but it makes up for it with the stun effect and if you had to Repulsor then becomes such a fun weapon to use the only thing I think intellect really needs is a range weapon class

[Euzio]

Fair points made. I was considering that the Sledgehammer could have been repurposed as Strength is the only tree with 2 melee weapons in it. The Sledgehammer also suffers in that its the only weapon which doesn't have any skill related books to it while the Baton has the skill books but more like half of it is related to other things (though the skill books for the Baton are very powerful). So the idea was to just combine them both and make the Steel Sledgehammer the T3 version of the Stun Baton. But if the game files has the potential for the Plasma Baton then I'd love to see it~ 

[InfiniteWarrior]

Why not decouple weapons from the skill tree so players can use whatever they want in any combination they want in each playthrough with skills such as strength playing a reasonable as opposed to oversized role. (And why is there no defense mechanism on melee weapons, e.g. blocking, btw?) Tying weapons so strictly to physical attributes always struck me as an odd choice, especially bearing in mind the AK47, M60 and submachine gun. With the submachine gun tied to handguns and further tied to physical attributes, a player is far less likely ever to use the AK47/M60 and vice versa, for example, not wanting to spread their points too thin if investing anything at all in Agility or Strength respectively. In this case, a choice between blades, batons and sledgehammers is presented by the skill tree itself. (And -- why, oh why -- is something like Master Chef tied to Strength of all things?)

Smacks of BGS' fusing of perks with skills and "Big Guns/Small Guns" specializations when perks and skills are better off separate in a game like this, allowing for more possible permutations of choice in weapons, gear and skills. As is, one has to "specialize" in a variety and not just one or two branches of the "skill" tree to use/wield effectively whatever they want in any combination they want, e.g. blades with assault rifles, spreading their points all over the place. That TFP have implemented RPG-like "classes" in a non-RPG is a little...curious. I didn't have to spec into anything to use the frying pan in L4D effectively and this game is way more like that game than, say, an early Fallout game. You just happen to be building or reinforcing the saferooms rather than running from and to them.  Further, there are no factions to join that reflect a specific attribute or characteristic of the faction itself such as Big Guns do with the BoS and Small Guns do with the Railroad. 

There's a point at which fusing becomes confounding and confusing and restrictive of player agency. I'd wager this is the basis for those who argue that TFP is "forcing" a certain playstyle on them when it's just the uber-specificity of the skill tree they're feeling forcing their hand. When it comes to 7DTD, I say spread those points out to your heart's content and achieve precisely the build you want. You have all the time in the world to level them up effectively over the due course of the game. Only players I'd think wouldn't be interested in doing that is min-maxers and, of course, we're not all min-maxers.

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

Why not decouple weapons from the skill tree so players can use whatever they want in any combination they want in each playthrough with skills such as strength playing a reasonable as opposed to oversized role.

 

TFP tried this once in A17 and it failed. Because the game had the attributes as well and now everyone needed to get all attributes, especially strength for melee and perception for guns.

 

Naturally they could have invented some way so it would work, mainly by copying the methods used in typical RPGs out there, but then it wouldn't be a new and different mechanic and it would be stale from the start (my opinion here, I think the uniqueness of 7D2Ds systems plays a large role in the appeal this game has)

 

10 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

 [...] That TFP have implemented RPG-like "classes" in a non-RPG is a little...curious. [...]

 

Simply wrong because 7D2D tries to be a mix of several genres, including RPG.

 

Having weapons tied to the classes may be bad for players who just want to play it once or players who just prefer specific weapons and classes, but for replayability it is great. I tend to switch between the classes whenever starting a new game, though I have a clear favourite in AGI, which I use the most.

 

10 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

There's a point at which fusing becomes confounding and confusing and restrictive of player agency. I'd wager this is the basis for those who argue that TFP is "forcing" a certain playstyle on them when it's just the uber-specificity of the skill tree they're feeling forcing their hand. When it comes to 7DTD, I say spread those points out to your heart's content and achieve precisely the build you want. You have all the time in the world to level them up effectively over the due course of the game. Only players I'd think wouldn't be interested in doing that is min-maxers and, of course, we're not all min-maxers.

 

Exactly, the point costs of the attributes makes it relatively easy to double class (as two attributes to 7 costs about the same as one attribute to 10 and allows perks up to 4). Which allows free choice of 2 out of 3 (melee, gun and class)

 

[InfiniteWarrior]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

7D2D tries to be a mix of several genres, including RPG.

Tries and fails? "Try to please everyone and you'll end up pleasing no one." Would that were an embroidered relief hanging on the wall of development studios everywhere. But, of course, it's typically not studios demanding that a game try to be all things to all people and cover every genre in existence, but the publishers and console manufacturers that are generally bankrolling the games. Given this one began with a Kickstarter campaign, publishers and investors can take on only so much of the responsibility for the hyper-homogeneity that characterizes the industry at large influencing(?)...er, leaking into(?)...7DTD. TFP's first responsibility, aside from to themselves, is to those who contributed to the game's Kickstarter campaign. Now, however, they're having to deal with those publishers and console manufacturers and contractors and...I don't envy them the position, to be honest.

[meganoth]

20 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

Tries and fails? "Try to please everyone and you'll end up pleasing no one." Would that were an embroidered relief hanging on the wall of development studios everywhere. But, of course, it's typically not studios demanding that a game try to be all things to all people and cover every genre in existence, but the publishers and console manufacturers that are generally bankrolling the games. Given this one began with a Kickstarter campaign, publishers and investors can take on only so much of the responsibility for the hyper-homogeneity that characterizes the industry at large influencing(?)...er, leaking into(?)...7DTD. TFP's first responsibility, aside from to themselves, is to those who contributed to the game's Kickstarter campaign. Now, however, they're having to deal with those publishers and console manufacturers and contractors and...I don't envy them the position, to be honest.

 

Read the kickstarter. RPG was promised in it. Nothing to do with publishers, console manufacturers, contractors...

 

 

Quote of the first paragraph of that kickstarter:

 

Quote

7 Days to Die is an open world, voxel-based, sandbox game that is a unique mash up of First Person Shooter, Survival Horror, Tower Defense and Role Playing Games combining combat, crafting, looting, mining, exploration, and character growth.

 

I don't think it fails, it is pleasing me and my friends at a minimum. Interesting that you talk about the hyper-homogeneity of the industry, but when TFP implements RPG and other mechanisms like nobody else does you don't seem to acknowledge that their game is NOT homogenic at all.

 

Adding genres **as a marketing ploy** only works as an unfair practice if you just implement fig leaves of it so you can add the label. I.e. get the advantage without the costs. But TFP did 2 takes of the RPG system before landing on the current, you really can't say they didn't make an effort to get an RPG system they liked.

 

Edited October 29 by meganoth (see edit history)

[warmer]

In my opinion they only way to make 7d2d a true RPG is to bring back improve by doing. In that type of skill setup, you could have all weapons independent of their associated attribute. We had that briefly many alphas ago. That was my favorite iteration, unfortunately there were too many ways to cheese that system and I think that is part of why they moved away from it. .

[InfiniteWarrior]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

RPG was promised in it.

 

Most today -- from publishers to developers to players -- don't even know what a RPG actually is, which is a game and game world in which story and characterization, character choice and consequence throughout the story that actually affects the game world in significant ways is front and center. Alas, publishers balk at studios creating a genuine RPG anymore and that's why they're so exceptionally rare. 7DTD is a sandbox game with "RPG elements" like every other game on the market trying to appeal to as wide an audience as possible and doing none of the genres it supposedly covers justice because that would be impossible. It's a superficial claim at best and misleading marketing at worst in the vast majority of cases and, obviously, not just the triple A space anymore.

I've supported TFP because the business model for their survival/horde/crafting game has been above board, claims of it being a "RPG" notwithstanding because (as noted) most don't even know what that means anymore. Would that they would have been content in calling it a survival/horde/crafting game and produced a genuine RPG at a later date, if they so desired. But that's not how it's come down.

 

[Vaeliorin]

5 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

 

Most today -- from publishers to developers to players -- don't even know what a RPG actually is, which is a game and game world in which story and characterization, character choice and consequence throughout the story that actually affects the game world in significant ways is front and center. Alas, publishers balk at studios creating a genuine RPG anymore and that's why they're so exceptionally rare.

I agree, and I would add that the systems in the game need to be directly translatable to a tabletop setting (even if they'd be horrendous to play.)  If the player's physical abilities effect the character's abilities, it's not an RPG.  Ideally, mental abilities wouldn't be just those of the player either, and while that can be roleplayed to an extent, it's awfully difficult to play someone smarter/wiser/more charismatic than yourself.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

I agree, and I would add that the systems in the game need to be directly translatable to a tabletop setting (even if they'd be horrendous to play.)  If the player's physical abilities effect the character's abilities, it's not an RPG.  Ideally, mental abilities wouldn't be just those of the player either, and while that can be roleplayed to an extent, it's awfully difficult to play someone smarter/wiser/more charismatic than yourself.

 

Then "The Witcher" for example is not an RPG.

 

Sure, everyone is free to make his own definition of what an RPG is or is not, and I would even agree to your definition (sans the tabletop setting) for calling something a pure 100% RPG. "The witcher" is a mix of action game and RPG. As is 7 days among other things. Now do "mixed forms" of genre games simply not exist for you? Do they have to have ALL characteristics of a pure game? Even if some of those characteristics contradict each other?

 

 

 

[Vaeliorin]

Just now, meganoth said:

Then "The Witcher" for example is not an RPG.

Yep.  It's a story driven action game (well, 2 and 3.  The first game is a story driven rhythm game, since as long as you're in the correct stance and get the timing right, you'll never get hit.)

 

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

Sure, everyone is free to make his own definition of what an RPG is or is not, and I would even agree to your definition (sans the tabletop setting) for calling something a pure 100% RPG. "The witcher" is a mix of action game and RPG. As is 7 days among other things. Now do "mixed forms" of genre games simply not exist for you? Do they have to have ALL characteristics of a pure game? Even if some of those characteristics contradict each other?

Sure.  But 7D2D has neither of the elements of an RPG (yes, my definition is very strict.  I knew someone once who claimed that to be an RPG a game had to be playable by a quadriplegic, and I think he had a point.)  Progression elements don't equal RPG in my eyes.

 

But I'm old and hate the way that genre definitions have been diluted to be meaningless over the last 20-30 years.

[InfiniteWarrior]

1 hour ago, Vaeliorin said:

I'm old and hate the way that genre definitions have been diluted to be meaningless over the last 20-30 years.

Hear, hear. Especially "RPG" in my sight. It wouldn't have been possible, however, without the cooperation of the gaming community. The reason publishers balk at studios producing one is that the publisher can't see the value in creating content some players will never see despite that RPG players most definitely would as they generally want to exhaust every possible permutation of choice and consequence in subsequent playthroughs with different characters. That is, of course, what actually accounted for the immanent replayability of the classics. Former RPG studios have played along lest their projects be rejected and never see the light of day, either making all content available from the outset and expecting players to join every faction and complete every quest regardless for which faction in an initial (and likely only) playthrough or, most often, simply not producing the alternative content at all, presentlng the player with faux choices that don't affect the game world in the least.

An entire generation literally has grown up knowing only the publishers' definition of RPG: an action game with levels of mechanical sans artistic (story, dialogue, etc.) progression. (Ntm, the Hollyweird influence responsible for the phenomenon of games as interactive movies. Sometimes I wonder if the developers of such games don't secretly wish they were working for LucasArts instead.) That's why playing them feels like simply going through the robotic motions. Pretty much convinced genuine RPGs have been and are going extinct. Too few care to keep the genre alive and unique.

[Suxar]

13 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

Alas, publishers balk at studios creating a genuine RPG anymore and that's why they're so exceptionally rare.

The problem is not with the publishers, but with the labor costs. Let's take the first versions of Neverwinter, depending on what the player does, a lot changes, you won't see some quests and you won't get to some locations. And this means that in one game there are essentially several games. For a scriptwriter, this is just awful. You need to write a whole bunch of scripts and turn some of them on/off depending on the player's actions. This is a very difficult task.

 

There is another problem, Todd Howard once voiced it. Most players want to get everything possible in the game. In a normal RPG, this is not possible.

 

Based on the above, the RPG genre will essentially die. The development costs are very high, and the gaming audience is very limited.

[InfiniteWarrior]

34 minutes ago, Suxar said:

Todd Howard once voiced it. Most players want to get everything possible in the game.

[At once? No doubt he did say that. As noted In the case of RPGs, however: Nah.] Yikes. You're quoting Todd on the topic of what players want? Hmm. Well, Bruce Nesmith, for one, has said that's what the supposed wunderkind is good at: knowing what players want. Must be why YouTube is filled with hours-long video essays all about how Bethesda is completely out of touch with what BGS' playerbase wants.  Aside: Seems to me TFP, et alia, has picked up much of the slack there. Gee, I wonder what they'll do with it in the future?

Just FYI: No one wants to cite labor costs to me as a legitimate excuse for the lousy state of the triple A gaming industry today when institutionalized greed is the real (and quite unconscious at that) culprit there as elsewhere. Triple A games are Big Business and have multimillion dollar budgets. That's much of the reason why triple A studios and their handlers are afraid to take risks and never-ending sequels (ntm, far worse) are the norm just as it is in the motion picture industry, as George Lucas himself recently noted. If it's not considered a "sure bet," owners and investors are not likely to back it. The triple A industry is like a casino in that respect, only a casino that features only russian roulette dragging studios from BGS to Bioware to Arkane down along with it. Most studios and their former handlers, e.g. ZeniMax, have been bought out by console manufacturers which, of course, includes Microsoft and the Xbox and PC consoles. Such companies are traded on the stock market which runs on algorithms which just so happens to be under no semblance of human control. And -- ohmigoodnesss -- I so feel for video game developers today. Game development has become just as much a part of the "gig economy" as most every other profession with major studios and their handlers hiring well beyond their means to complete a project, then engaging in massive layoffs once a game is ready to ship. Fantastic job security they have there. Many of them have learned (or already knew) the companies they work(ed) for didn't care about them or their welfare and have struck out on their own to produce indie games like Nate Purkeypile's 'The Axis Unseen' and Jonah Lobe's 'Quiet: Level One'. Wishing them all the best. God knows they could use all the player support they can get and, of course, players are as sick as they of the triple A bs. Kind of awesome players can hook up directly with developers and support one another when you stop to think about it. 

[Suxar]

4 hours ago, InfiniteWarrior said:

Must be why YouTube is filled with hours-long video essays all about how Bethesda is completely out of touch with what BGS' playerbase wants.

You've fallen for the "survivorship bias". You should look at sales volumes and profits, not videos. Most buyers of a product will never leave a review anywhere, but they will pay money.

[InfiniteWarrior]

2 hours ago, Suxar said:

You should look at sales volumes and profits

Obscene profits. Of course, as long as players are contributing to the problem, nothing will improve in the triple A space. It will only get worse...and worse and worse...and more and more homogenous in order to try and appeal to the fictitious "masses." (Fictitious because we're not objects in the Newtonian-Cartesian way of looking at the world and the human beings who are interconnected with all other life forms. Human beings will tire of being looked upon as objects to be taken advantage of eventually, though most likely not until things get so bad for the average person they can't afford the hobby anymore and survival is longer just a game to them.

[warmer]

Einstein approved