Long-range rifles imbalance

[Riamus]

12 minutes ago, TWORDY said:

 

It is suicidal to go into 5 LVL POI with Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle compared to any end-game weapon due to bad stats. Any player will be more successful with SMG, not because it is close- range weapon, not to mention M60. You`re gambling your success with Sniper Rifle... because it requires a skill and stats are far worse when it comes to (TTK) downing the Zombies. Hitbox on the head is only 10% of the body, headshot multiplier is the same as on any other weapon 300%. Saving ammo is a personal choice. Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle only works on static enemies or 2-3 at a time. Any other weapon will down the enemy 30-100% faster. I am talking about stats.

I think I just said that, and said ita few times previously.  It has its place and that isn't when you are surrounded.  I use spears in tier 5 except a few specific places where there are too many zombies spread out too far to handle.  Then I switch to a pistol or desert vulture or SMG, depending what I feel like using in that particular game for backup.  I wouldn't ever take a sniper rifle for a POI because I know that isn't what they are for.  Why try to fit a square peg into a round hole?

 

As far as headshots, what has been said, though I haven't looked in the XML to verify if it is true, is that rifles get an extra bonus beyond the normal headshot bonus when getting headshots.  I know I take down enemies in one headshot far more easily in a single shot with a sniper than any other late game weapon.  Maybe that is just the base damage being higher or maybe it does have that extra bonus on top of the normal multiplier.  As I said, I haven't looked because I honestly don't care.  I like that rifle and use it exclusively on horde night unless I run out of ammo for it.

[Krougal]

20 minutes ago, TWORDY said:

 

It is suicidal to go into 5 LVL POI with Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle compared to any end-game weapon due to bad stats. Any player will be more successful with SMG, not because it is close- range weapon, not to mention M60. You`re gambling your success with Sniper Rifle... because it requires a skill and stats are far worse when it comes to (TTK) downing the Zombies. Hitbox on the head is only 10% of the body, headshot multiplier is the same as on any other weapon 300%. Saving ammo is a personal choice. Semi-automatic Sniper Rifle only works on static enemies or 2-3 at a time. Any other weapon will down the enemy 30-100% faster. I am talking about stats.

It's doable with the right mods. Instead of the normal 8x scope I'd go with a mag extender, and some mods for hipfire - laser,foregrip and stock. Rad remover instead of stock if not doing enough damage for 1 shot kills. If you want to aim then reflex instead of laser, and maybe barrel extender and bipod. Optionally a silencer for stealth kills.

Is it the optimal weapon for the situation? No, but if it is what you've perked into it should remain viable at least.

Edited August 20 by Krougal (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

I never even use M60.  It wastes ammo.  The sniper rifle lets you kill most things in one shot and saves a ton of ammo.  But as has been stated already, it has its place and "up close and personal" isn't it.

The M60 only wastes ammo if you have terrible trigger discipline.  You can 1/2 shot almost every zombie with head shots, and when the @%$# hits the fan, you can spray down a lot of zombies in a short time.

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

I wouldn't ever take a sniper rifle for a POI because I know that isn't what they are for.  Why try to fit a square peg into a round hole?

Well, I bring two, what does that say about me.. They make a lot of round holes. I filmed a run just for fun in A21, even the mess of an end fight there (14:40 onwards) actually saw some good use of AP Sniper as well; although for that end fight I was relying more on the short-range stuff, as things tended to get a little close...

 

https://odysee.com/@theFlu:d/NavzPrisonClear:a

 

Usually in my Agi/Per build, one kitted for general-purpose stealth kills (giggity) and the other for oh-crap-AP.

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, Vaeliorin said:

The M60 only wastes ammo if you have terrible trigger discipline.  You can 1/2 shot almost every zombie with head shots, and when the @%$# hits the fan, you can spray down a lot of zombies in a short time.

I have been using it lately and it feels too clunky. I mean it feels like an M60 should I guess, but I much prefer the handling of the TAR or even the AK. I was perfectly happy back when the AK was it. I generally find the full auto awful, although the SMG does seem to have better control. Body shots maybe fine on adventurer but they are just a waste of time and ammo on survivalist.

[Vaeliorin]

4 minutes ago, Krougal said:

I have been using it lately and it feels too clunky. I mean it feels like an M60 should I guess, but I much prefer the handling of the TAR or even the AK. I was perfectly happy back when the AK was it. I generally find the full auto awful, although the SMG does seem to have better control. Body shots maybe fine on adventurer but they are just a waste of time and ammo on survivalist.

I generally only use it on horde night, but when you wake up the whole bottom floor of the T5 Crack-A-Book, it's nice to just hose down the horde of zombies.  Granted, haven't done it in 1.0, so the increased health might make it less effective than I recall it being.

[Krougal]

Just now, Vaeliorin said:

I generally only use it on horde night, but when you wake up the whole bottom floor of the T5 Crack-A-Book, it's nice to just hose down the horde of zombies.  Granted, haven't done it in 1.0, so the increased health might make it less effective than I recall it being.

Yeah, having just found myself in exactly that situation today as a matter of fact: It works. Granted it works a lot better with a pair of turrets.

The POI mobs aren't so bad, even on an infestation; it's the screamer horde in the wasteland. Lots of green muts and wights. Drum mag, rad remover, cripple'em, muzzle break (wondering if something else would be better; probably silencer to mitigate the heat)

[Riamus]

3 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

The M60 only wastes ammo if you have terrible trigger discipline.  You can 1/2 shot almost every zombie with head shots, and when the @%$# hits the fan, you can spray down a lot of zombies in a short time.

And yet at that point, is it any different from a rifle besides just that you don't have to swap to a full auto weapon if you need to kill quickly?  If I'm just taking a shot or two at stuff, I'll use something other than a full auto weapon or even semi auto.  Sure, I can tap 1-2 shot out of a full auto weapon without difficulty, but it really doesn't help me to use a weapon like that for such shooting.  I only have use of such weapons for rapid firing and M60 goes through ammo like a sieve when using full auto.  I'd rather stick to other full auto weapons if I'm going to use one that don't burn ammo so quickly.  In the end, I'll use the Tac or SMG for that.  I tried M60 once and never touched it again.    Everyone has their preferences for weapons and I prefer controlled single shots from sniper or one of the pistols (desert vulture if I have it) when I want a gun, but spear the rest of the time. 

[Vaeliorin]

8 minutes ago, Riamus said:

And yet at that point, is it any different from a rifle besides just that you don't have to swap to a full auto weapon if you need to kill quickly?  If I'm just taking a shot or two at stuff, I'll use something other than a full auto weapon or even semi auto.  Sure, I can tap 1-2 shot out of a full auto weapon without difficulty, but it really doesn't help me to use a weapon like that for such shooting.  I only have use of such weapons for rapid firing and M60 goes through ammo like a sieve when using full auto.  I'd rather stick to other full auto weapons if I'm going to use one that don't burn ammo so quickly.  In the end, I'll use the Tac or SMG for that.  I tried M60 once and never touched it again.    Everyone has their preferences for weapons and I prefer controlled single shots from sniper or one of the pistols (desert vulture if I have it) when I want a gun, but spear the rest of the time. 

Yeah, outside of horde night I'm 95+% melee + bow/crossbow.  I'm just saying, if you're only looking to carry one gun, the M60 can kill quite well with low ammo use on single targets, and can demolish large mobs of enemies in those "Oh @%$#!" moments.

 

Granted, I've never really found ammo to be an issue in recent versions.  I'll have several thousand in a box while I'm crafting another 5-6 thousand AP ammo.  But I mine a lot, and that seems to be relatively uncommon.

[TWORDY]

On 8/21/2024 at 2:29 AM, theFlu said:

Well, I bring two, what does that say about me.. They make a lot of round holes. I filmed a run just for fun in A21, even the mess of an end fight there (14:40 onwards) actually saw some good use of AP Sniper as well; although for that end fight I was relying more on the short-range stuff, as things tended to get a little close...

 

https://odysee.com/@theFlu:d/NavzPrisonClear:a

 

Usually in my Agi/Per build, one kitted for general-purpose stealth kills (giggity) and the other for oh-crap-AP.

 

2 Sniper Rifles (Bloody Battle Rifles) and Desert Eagle. Tactical retreat, all the way down the pavement. Would You Bring 2 SMGs, 2 Tactical Rilfes, or 2 even M60, and a pistol?

 

On 8/21/2024 at 5:55 AM, Vaeliorin said:

Yeah, outside of horde night I'm 95+% melee + bow/crossbow.  I'm just saying, if you're only looking to carry one gun, the M60 can kill quite well with low ammo use on single targets, and can demolish large mobs of enemies in those "Oh @%$#!" moments.

 

Granted, I've never really found ammo to be an issue in recent versions.  I'll have several thousand in a box while I'm crafting another 5-6 thousand AP ammo.  But I mine a lot, and that seems to be relatively uncommon.

 

Bow/Crossbow is incredibly Strong but only in Stealth mode. At least 3.5 x Stealth Damage does the job.

[theFlu]

51 minutes ago, TWORDY said:

2 Sniper Rifles (Bloody Battle Rifles) and Desert Eagle.

Yeap, do note that the point of the video wasn't to "use rifles", it was just a fun end-of-run Clear that I recorded, partly for debugging the joint and partly to see if I can find obvious flaws in my play watching it "from the outside". In other words, that's just how I played that run. Tactical positioning included; it's not like the good spots take that long to utilize with parkour.

 

57 minutes ago, TWORDY said:

Would You Bring 2 SMGs, 2 Tactical Rilfes, or 2 even M60, and a pistol?

I often do.. One "main weapon" for accurate fire, one for aoe DPS. "2 SMGs + a pistol", yes and no; a pistol(9mm) doesn't offer any benefit over a third SMG; but 2 SMGs and a Dulture were literally what I was carrying on that run before I started adding points for the rifles.

 

2 assault rifles? Yes, most of Fort games from day 1.

2 Shotguns..? only early on for pipes and dubsies, a second pumpy doesn't seem beneficial, but I'll run another weapon type along with it.

2 .. wait, we already went thru all the options? Yeah, I'll bring firearms in double for most of the time, swapping is faster than reloading

[TWORDY]

1 minute ago, theFlu said:

2 assault rifles? Yes, most of Fort games from day 1.

2 Shotguns..? only early on for pipes and dubsies, a second pumpy doesn't seem beneficial, but I'll run another weapon type along with it.

2 .. wait, we already went thru all the options? Yeah, I'll bring firearms in double for most of the time, swapping is faster than reloading

 

Perhaps we might have someday drum mags or 2 mags taped together for fast reloads? In post-apo game with waves of zombies this might be not a bad move in the late game. 

[Daiemio]

On 8/13/2024 at 2:07 PM, Misamor said:

The rifle is ridiculously useless as it is, pls fix.

Hot take, but honestly, you're welcome to your own(poor) opinion.

 

I personally find the rifle quite useful, specially early-game, it can one-shot screamers, spider-zombies and cops as they wander around sometimes near you base due to -certain- mechanics I won't go into now because it might spoil your method of thinking, Yes, the pipe-rifle, with a x4-x8 scope is SLOW as balls, but it kicks like a mule when you remain undetected and get the 1.5 attack bonus, and even IF they survive the 2nd shot while slow will often finish them off.

 

The pipe-pistol is definitely not my favourite gun, but the Handgun I can usually rock as a tier-6 item all the way until I have the .44 Magnum or Desert Vulture, it hits decently, fires fast, reloads even faster once you have the ammo-belt and will most likely safe your butt early on in the game as you start taking on Infested nests from the trader-quest or run into Feral zombies.

 

Each weapon has its time and place, if you're going for a specific build and you don't like taking a long-range killing tool with you, all the more power too you, but don't say its useless, its disingenuous and won't make you any friends here.

[TWORDY]

On 8/25/2024 at 10:33 AM, Daiemio said:

Hot take, but honestly, you're welcome to your own(poor) opinion.

 

Everyone is entitled to his opinion. But You missed the statistics he has provided (Misamor).

 

On 8/25/2024 at 10:33 AM, Daiemio said:

I personally find the rifle quite useful, specially early-game, it can one-shot screamers, spider-zombies and cops as they wander around sometimes near you base due to -certain- mechanics I won't go into now because it might spoil your method of thinking, 

 

May I know what in-game difficulty are we talking about - default (Adventurer) or much higher like Warrior or Survivalist? Could You tell us more about your method of thinking. It is relevant because every time the difficulty level goes up, it will take more time (more bullets) to drop the enemy dead. If you look closely at Time to Kill statistics, the most relevant information, Sniper Rifles (no matter if bolt action, or semi-auto) fall behind at (damage x rounds) per minute, in pretty much every category at any level. I do not like talking about abstract information without hard data first. 

 

On 8/25/2024 at 10:33 AM, Daiemio said:

The pipe-pistol is definitely not my favourite gun, but the Handgun I can usually rock as a tier-6 item all the way until I have the .44 Magnum or Desert Vulture, it hits decently, fires fast, reloads even faster once you have the ammo-belt and will most likely safe your butt early on in the game as you start taking on Infested nests from the trader-quest or run into Feral zombies.

 

Completely agree.

 

On 8/25/2024 at 10:33 AM, Daiemio said:

Each weapon has its time and place, if you're going for a specific build and you don't like taking a long-range killing tool with you, all the more power too you, but don't say its useless, its disingenuous and won't make you any friends here.

 

Misamor wrote what he wrote, not the best way to express his dissatisfaction, but, I share also his opinion to some extent. Sniper Rifle is really good against a few, non-threatening static enemies, or lining up for a shot. I continue to believe that last-tier semi-automatic DMR-style Rifle should obliterate enemies in comparison to M60, except for the size of the mag. Once a player perks up into another Specialization, and gets his hands on any automatic weapon or a shotgun, there is no such thing as inferior Sniper Rifle.

[Misamor]

On 8/25/2024 at 11:33 AM, Daiemio said:

Each weapon has its time and place

 

And my point is that the "time and place" of the rifle is basically non-existent.

Crazy how the Mr know-it-alls of this forum can't even "disprove" my opinion without outing themselves as having reading deficiencies.
For the record, here's what I say about why the dev's way to balance the rifle (trading DPS for range) actually doesn't do anything:
"And don't tell me it's the range. In this game, where looting is a core game mechanic, 95% of your zombie encounters will happen inside buildings at 10 blocks away, tops."

Maybe if you're going to say someone's opinion is "poor", try to actually answer their arguments next time, otherwise 

 

Quote

its disingenuous and won't make you any friends here.

 

Actually, allow me to make my point clear once and for all with a simple comparison everyone can understand.
Take the clubs and the sledgehammers. Clubs hit faster, right? So to make up for this advantage, sledgehammers need to get something better than the clubs to stay competitive, because if they didn't, there wouldn't be a point to play sledge, you'd just take clubs. So right now in the game, Sledgehammers deal quite a larger amount of damage. As a result, Sledgehammers (at equal tier and level) deal about the same amount of damage PER SECOND than the clubs. There, BALANCED.

 

Now what if instead of giving the sledgehammers a generally larger amount of damage than the clubs, you gave it a larger amount of damage against vultures? That's what the game is doing with the rifles. Instead of giving the rifle a way larger amount of damage than the pistol (the most polyvalent firearm in the game with the automatic rifle class), you're giving it a slightly larger amount of damage to compensate for its slow rate of fire (which doesn't even begin to make its DPS equivalent to the pistol from what I've seen), AND, to compensate for that, you're giving it an advantage that's going to be barely useful to you during your playthrough (as I developped in that following quoted message)!
 

Quote

What's the one thing that changed a few updates ago into learn by LOOTING?

How many trader quest categories have you visiting POIs? (I'll answer that for you: 4 out of 5, 6 if you count the "open route" quest according to the wiki https://7daystodie.fandom.com/wiki/Traders)

You literally have to loot POIs to level up your crafting skills!

 

That's what I'm saying above: the range advantage doesn't serve as balancing the rifle-class weapon because most of your encounters with zombies DON'T HAPPEN AT RANGE. As a result, tie rifle isn't balanced, it's just very situational.

There I hope my point is clear now, because I'm running out of ideas to make it so.

Edited August 27 by Misamor (see edit history)

[Scyris]

On 8/13/2024 at 9:39 AM, Misamor said:

Which again supports my point. All weapons should be valid and allow a different playstyle, the same way that all close-combat weapons (fists, sledgehammers...) are valid and balanced between each other. If you feel you have to wait 150 levels before a weapon is finally worth investing into: that weapon is probably unbalanced.

 

Well it balances out when u get the lever action or sniper rifle a bit better, as they have a 5 and I think 10 mag size, the problem then becomes how useless rifles are in close range, as they have more spread than a shotgun does. Which makes NO SENSE rifles usually have really good hipfire and are the best to aim down sights with. In 7dtd however this is pretty opposite, the rifle is terrible for hipfire and takes to long to center for a ranged shot that its not worth using.

 

As for the pipe/hunting rifle, I agree they need to do much more damage than they do for being a single shot, same for the pipe shotgun. Maybe a base dmg of 90 ish for the hunting rifle and 70 ish for the pipe. This way they might be viable at low levels for ranged shots since 1 shot from the hunting rifle from stealth will prob kill most normal zombies with a sneak headshot.

 

Rifles has always been the worse weapon in 7dtd for as far as I can remember, and the new inflated hp pools of the zombies in a22 just shows the problem with this weapon type even more.

 

They still need to redo the stat system to maybe a 3 stat system with all weapons in the same stat.

18 hours ago, Misamor said:

 

And my point is that the "time and place" of the rifle is basically non-existent.

Crazy how the Mr know-it-alls of this forum can't even "disprove" my opinion without outing themselves as having reading deficiencies.
For the record, here's what I say about why the dev's way to balance the rifle (trading DPS for range) actually doesn't do anything:
"And don't tell me it's the range. In this game, where looting is a core game mechanic, 95% of your zombie encounters will happen inside buildings at 10 blocks away, tops."

Maybe if you're going to say someone's opinion is "poor", try to actually answer their arguments next time, otherwise 

 

 

Actually, allow me to make my point clear once and for all with a simple comparison everyone can understand.
Take the clubs and the sledgehammers. Clubs hit faster, right? So to make up for this advantage, sledgehammers need to get something better than the clubs to stay competitive, because if they didn't, there wouldn't be a point to play sledge, you'd just take clubs. So right now in the game, Sledgehammers deal quite a larger amount of damage. As a result, Sledgehammers (at equal tier and level) deal about the same amount of damage PER SECOND than the clubs. There, BALANCED.

 

Now what if instead of giving the sledgehammers a generally larger amount of damage than the clubs, you gave it a larger amount of damage against vultures? That's what the game is doing with the rifles. Instead of giving the rifle a way larger amount of damage than the pistol (the most polyvalent firearm in the game with the automatic rifle class), you're giving it a slightly larger amount of damage to compensate for its slow rate of fire (which doesn't even begin to make its DPS equivalent to the pistol from what I've seen), AND, to compensate for that, you're giving it an advantage that's going to be barely useful to you during your playthrough (as I developped in that following quoted message)!
 

 

That's what I'm saying above: the range advantage doesn't serve as balancing the rifle-class weapon because most of your encounters with zombies DON'T HAPPEN AT RANGE. As a result, tie rifle isn't balanced, it's just very situational.

There I hope my point is clear now, because I'm running out of ideas to make it so.

 

Yeah thats the thing why I dislike them, they are useless in the range most zombie enounters happen in due to being the most inaccurate ranged weapon in the game for hipfire. Most encounters happen inside of poi's from 10 blocks or less away, you do not have time to ADS and center the aim even on slow walking zombies, and on Ferals? you'd be dead before you could take a half accurate shot. Rifles need to have a near perfect hipfire, and make ADSing take a second or 2 to aim.