90 duct tape for a drone level 6 ​😆

[Blasphemous]

Yeah I know this is a rant but, wtf?

90 duct tape for a stupid drone? Is it just a gigantic roll of flying tape or what?

Is this supposed to be some sort of @%$#ed balance thing?

Why does it have to be NINETY?! Seriously... it's enough to build a Myth Busters' duct tape plane.

Shouldn't it be like 90 polymers and maybe 5 DT?

Anyway, I guess I'm just going to ignore that zero, give myself a drone via CM and drop the remaining components back into the CM menu.

I'm not going to enable this stupidity.

 

[Gr.o.m.]

So you are going to tell me, that it is a problem to produce 90 glue, 90 water while you are in the endgame?

 

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Blasphemous said:

Yeah I know this is a rant but, wtf?

90 duct tape for a stupid drone? Is it just a gigantic roll of flying tape or what?

Is this supposed to be some sort of @%$#ed balance thing?

Why does it have to be NINETY?! Seriously... it's enough to build a Myth Busters' duct tape plane.

Shouldn't it be like 90 polymers and maybe 5 DT?

Anyway, I guess I'm just going to ignore that zero, give myself a drone via CM and drop the remaining components back into the CM menu.

I'm not going to enable this stupidity.

 

Yeah, I never craft drones because of it since they made those changes in A21.  It doesn't matter if I can afford it.  It is the principle for me.  😁

[Blasphemous]

40 minutes ago, Gr.o.m. said:

So you are going to tell me, that it is a problem to produce 90 glue, 90 water while you are in the endgame?

 

Not a problem at all. My rant isn't about being or not being able to afford it, it's about the stupidity of such a requirement.

The stationary turret at level 6 needs only 60 tape, why the @%$# would a FLYING drone require more?

It is about principle, like Riamus said; this is a stupid design choice and I'm rectifying it with CM.

It's not like the drone is a game changer and makes the play a breeze. It's a nice QoL addition and that's it.

No point making it so obnoxiously expensive resource-wise, not to mention how a drone is still able to fly with 90 rolls of duct tape wrapped around it.

Suspension of disbelief I guess, though I think it can only go so far.

[Javabean867]

Yeah 90 feels a bit excessive.

 

But by endgame, I don't see a problem with getting that pretty quickly.

 

Nothing wrong with cm.  I tend to toss a stack of lock picks into my inventory, cause the lockpicking is so random. And the cost of a forged iron and mechanical part is stupidly expensive for a bendy piece of metal lol.

[theFlu]

The whole number-of-duct-tape design is silly. It's an early mat, meant to tie together scraps of metal to make something relatively usable... not to make AI robotics and guns. It's like Valheim asking you to get 100 copper bars to craft iron armor, and a 1000 copper bars to craft a slow-fall cloak. Early mats should be left behind with progress, not to require factory production in ridiculous quantities.

[Gr.o.m.]

1 hour ago, Blasphemous said:

Not a problem at all. My rant isn't about being or not being able to afford it, it's about the stupidity of such a requirement.

The stationary turret at level 6 needs only 60 tape, why the @%$# would a FLYING drone require more?

It is about principle, like Riamus said; this is a stupid design choice and I'm rectifying it with CM.

It's not like the drone is a game changer and makes the play a breeze. It's a nice QoL addition and that's it.

No point making it so obnoxiously expensive resource-wise, not to mention how a drone is still able to fly with 90 rolls of duct tape wrapped around it.

Suspension of disbelief I guess, though I think it can only go so far.

When we (a group of 4 players) ascend from the mid- into the endgame we usually sit at a couplee of thousand bones and with the new changes of the water collectors we will be able to produce any amount of water. Now there are recipies where we can put those resources onto good use. I am happy that there are expesive recipies.

[Villskap]

TBH, I always considered the high duct-tape costs of crafting things that... don't have any visible duct tape to them, to be both a joke for the memes, and a crafting cost proportional to the precision needed. Basically we don't have good stable workshop tools, so we use a whole roll of duct tape to securely hold a part to the work-table while we cut/hammer/drill it. Or we make a mold for the propeller shape entirely out of duct tape like cosplay crafting.

Still even with that, any more than 10 rolls feels absurd, for really anything. Unless the idea is that you have to make like 30 molds for a part to reliably get 1 that comes out right. But it's a video game, and not one that takes it's crafting realism very seriously, and I'm okay with that. 😊

[Riamus]

They did that to make you need more glue and more water when they made the water changes and added the dew collector.  It's meant to make water more challenging.  But it's just a dumb thing to do, imo.  The most I'll ever craft for a drone is Q1 and only if I'm have extremely bad luck and can't find one in loot or to buy really far into end game, which is very rare.  I used to craft Q5 until they made the changes.  I thought the costs for things before the jars were removed was good and I'd craft more things and more often if those costs were still the same.  I'm glad to have jars gone but the huge increase in duct tape costs for stuff is just bad.  It isn't that I can't afford it.  I just don't like that it's so ridiculously high.

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Villskap said:

TBH, I always considered the high duct-tape costs of crafting things that... don't have any visible duct tape to them, to be both a joke for the memes, and a crafting cost proportional to the precision needed. Basically we don't have good stable workshop tools, so we use a whole roll of duct tape to securely hold a part to the work-table while we cut/hammer/drill it. Or we make a mold for the propeller shape entirely out of duct tape like cosplay crafting.

Still even with that, any more than 10 rolls feels absurd, for really anything. Unless the idea is that you have to make like 30 molds for a part to reliably get 1 that comes out right. But it's a video game, and not one that takes it's crafting realism very seriously, and I'm okay with that. 😊

 

You are thinking about rolls, but each duct tape could be just a 10 or 20 cm long piece. Nice rationalization by the way, never would have thought of that, but it makes sense

 

12 hours ago, Blasphemous said:

Not a problem at all. My rant isn't about being or not being able to afford it, it's about the stupidity of such a requirement.

The stationary turret at level 6 needs only 60 tape, why the @%$# would a FLYING drone require more?

It is about principle, like Riamus said; this is a stupid design choice and I'm rectifying it with CM.

It's not like the drone is a game changer and makes the play a breeze. It's a nice QoL addition and that's it.

No point making it so obnoxiously expensive resource-wise, not to mention how a drone is still able to fly with 90 rolls of duct tape wrapped around it.

Suspension of disbelief I guess, though I think it can only go so far.

 

Immersion is a very personal thing. Do you have any qualms about sometimes having 500 tons of stone or concrete in your backpack? Any immersion problems that you have 10 weapons and tools to switch to in a split second? Is your immersion triggered when a trader has indestructable walls and can TELEPORT you out of the compound like in star trek?

 

5 hours ago, Riamus said:

They did that to make you need more glue and more water when they made the water changes and added the dew collector.  It's meant to make water more challenging.  But it's just a dumb thing to do, imo.  The most I'll ever craft for a drone is Q1 and only if I'm have extremely bad luck and can't find one in loot or to buy really far into end game, which is very rare.  I used to craft Q5 until they made the changes.  I thought the costs for things before the jars were removed was good and I'd craft more things and more often if those costs were still the same.  I'm glad to have jars gone but the huge increase in duct tape costs for stuff is just bad.  It isn't that I can't afford it.  I just don't like that it's so ridiculously high.

 

But isn't that a totally different problem, that a q6 drone has no noticable advantage over a q1 ?

 

Edited July 12 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Javabean867]

32 minutes ago, meganoth said:

You are thinking about rolls, but each duct tape could be just a 10 or 20 cm long piece. Nice rationalization by the way, never would have thought of that, but it makes sense

 

This really.  I never assumed we were using full rolls of duct tape.  I mean we are only using a few pieces of cloth to make it. 

[Blasphemous]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

Immersion is a very personal thing. Do you have any qualms about sometimes having 500 tons of stone or concrete in your backpack? Any immersion problems that you have 10 weapons and tools to switch to in a split second? Is your immersion triggered when a trader has indestructable walls and can TELEPORT you out of the compound like in star trek?

The thing, this has been a game feature since day one, or least I remember it that way, having started back in A16.

It's taken for granted as a set of simplified game designs that get the job done and streamline the play.

Drone being as expensive as it is now in terms of duct tape is a new thing and far from serving a similar function.

It's easy to conclude the relative materiel requirements for things in this game are completely insane.

 

Using immersion and suspension of disbelief was a poor argument on my part to describe the crux of the issue here, so let's move past that:

Generally speaking, the game has a lot of recipes/schematics for different things and they make a lot of sense most of the time - you need a helmet light mod, it will require a flashlight and minor other components. Fine, good, makes sense. Need a torch? One wooden plank, a few strips of cloth and some fat to soak it in. Wow, great thought put into a tiny detail like this. But as the game advances, things become less nuanced and thought out in favor of just being hard for no reason.

 

You wanna make an M60, it needs 100 forged steel, springs, gun parts and a couple rolls of tape. Makes much less sense, when you consider that you can make 2 motorcycle chassis with that much steel and have enough left for a rocket launcher, a pick-axe, a bunker buster mod and a lockpick.

But STILL this is okay-ish. There's a lot of machining involved, precise work etc.

In the end it gives you perhaps the most powerful weapon in the game, bar the rocket launcher, so I can understand why it's costly.

 

But a drone? 90 tape? For a QoL improvement? Come on man.

[meganoth]

16 minutes ago, Blasphemous said:

The thing, this has been a game feature since day one, or least I remember it that way, having started back in A16.

It's taken for granted as a set of simplified game designs that get the job done and streamline the play.

Drone being as expensive as it is now in terms of duct tape is a new thing and far from serving a similar function.

It's easy to conclude the relative materiel requirements for things in this game are completely insane.

 

Using immersion and suspension of disbelief was a poor argument on my part to describe the crux of the issue here, so let's move past that:

Generally speaking, the game has a lot of recipes/schematics for different things and they make a lot of sense most of the time - you need a helmet light mod, it will require a flashlight and minor other components. Fine, good, makes sense. Need a torch? One wooden plank, a few strips of cloth and some fat to soak it in. Wow, great thought put into a tiny detail like this. But as the game advances, things become less nuanced and thought out in favor of just being hard for no reason.

 

You wanna make an M60, it needs 100 forged steel, springs, gun parts and a couple rolls of tape. Makes much less sense, when you consider that you can make 2 motorcycle chassis with that much steel and have enough left for a rocket launcher, a pick-axe, a bunker buster mod and a lockpick.

But STILL this is okay-ish. There's a lot of machining involved, precise work etc.

In the end it gives you perhaps the most powerful weapon in the game, bar the rocket launcher, so I can understand why it's costly.

 

But a drone? 90 tape? For a QoL improvement? Come on man.

 

I'd like to point to Villskap's rationalization that it is "a crafting cost proportional to the precision needed. Basically we don't have good stable workshop tools, so we use a whole roll of duct tape to securely hold a part to the work-table while we cut/hammer/drill it. Or we make a mold for the propeller shape entirely out of duct tape like cosplay crafting". That is as good or bad as your rationalization for the M60 cost of 100 steel.

 

I agree that the ingredients could make more sense, in the case of the drone it could be lots more electronic parts.

 

The drone may only be quality-of-life, but so is the gyro and the 4x4 and they are expensive to craft as well. As a tier3 the drone has to be expensive because the normal player has lots of parts at that time and the game needs sinks for those parts.

 

 

 

 

[theFlu]

In a way I used to rationalize it a bit, with something like "100 forged steel isn't actually a 100 x steel, but 100x the effort to make something resembling steel".. the more high grade you require, the more effort put in.. with the crapton of "duct tape", you could think you're actually crafting some other fiber/glue product, like carbon fiber parts, just an improvised version.

 

The rationalization kinda works, but it's only a rationalization. It'd be a whole lot better if it was actually implemented in game; as it is you can't really argue "that's what the game wants you to think".. Especially with you being just able to buy random duct tape, in small bits; that's not going to suddenly become a carbon fibre chassis for your drone. Same with the steel rationalization.

 

Nothing's stopping players from roleplaying whatever they like, but the game could take Some steps towards more reasonable "high tech".

[Riamus]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

But isn't that a totally different problem, that a q6 drone has no noticable advantage over a q1 ?

It has more mod slots.  That's noticeable. 

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

I agree that the ingredients could make more sense, in the case of the drone it could be lots more electronic parts.

 

The drone may only be quality-of-life, but so is the gyro and the 4x4 and they are expensive to craft as well. As a tier3 the drone has to be expensive because the normal player has lots of parts at that time and the game needs sinks for those parts.

If it required a bunch of electronic parts, I'd be fine with it.  But when the changes to require all that duct tape were made at the exact same time they removed jars and added a lot more duct tape to a lot of other recipes as well, it's very clear they did it only to make you need more water after making water less readily available.  I don't mind the water changes, but I do mind the extreme increase in duct tape in recipes for no reason but to make you need more water.  It isn't that I can't afford it because it's still extremely easy to have plenty of water.  But I just don't like the reason for it and so I refuse to craft things with those high duct tape changes that occurred in A21.  I could mod it out, but I don't have the original (A20, at least) recipes for things and it's just easier to stop crafting stuff that was changed like that.

 

And I've never much cared for games thinking you need a sink for stuff.  It's fine for a money sink in some cases as those tend to be things that you can do just because you have money and not because you need to -- buying unknown items from the trader in Diablo 2, for example.  But when you start throwing a bunch of stuff into recipes as a sink, it isn't a good thing, imo.  Besides, like I said, this occurred at the same time as the water changes, so it's quite clear it wasn't to use up excessive stacks of duct tape.  And there are other things that you end up with far more of than duct tape that haven't had any sinks put in for, which also makes it pretty clear that wasn't a change to add a sink.

 

Most people will just spend the duct tape and ignore the reason why the recipe was changed and there's nothing wrong with that.  But I just won't.  It's a quirk of mine, I suppose. 

[meganoth]

54 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Besides, like I said, this occurred at the same time as the water changes, so it's quite clear it wasn't to use up excessive stacks of duct tape.

 

So you think the developers could not project at that time that there will be more duct tape in end game? Even though they have probably played some test games as well? 😉

 

Also there are all those bones needed for glue in our chests that pile up in end game. And those have been piling up long before the water change.

 

 

[Cr0wst0rm]

19 hours ago, Gr.o.m. said:

So you are going to tell me, that it is a problem to produce 90 glue, 90 water while you are in the endgame?

 

That is like saying you can make spaghetti out of flue. That is just @%$#ed.

[Riamus]

19 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

So you think the developers could not project at that time that there will be more duct tape in end game? Even though they have probably played some test games as well? 😉

 

Also there are all those bones needed for glue in our chests that pile up in end game. And those have been piling up long before the water change.

How does that negate what I was saying?  I mentioned that there are other items that also stack up to excessive amounts in the end game.  Duct tape isn't one of them, but bones are, yes.  If the change wasn't made at the same time they changed water, it wouldn't be connected.  Since it was the same time and the number of bones sitting around probably hasn't changed for many alphas (maybe even going back to the first alphas), it is a clear indication to me that it was intended to make you use more water.  Now, maybe I'm wrong.  But unless TFP says that had nothing to do with it, I'm going to continue to think that it was the reason.  Right or wrong, I still think it was a bad change to the recipes and, on principle, I won't craft those items anymore.  As I mentioned, most people will not care or just ignore it and there's nothing wrong with that.

[meganoth]

21 minutes ago, Riamus said:

How does that negate what I was saying?  I mentioned that there are other items that also stack up to excessive amounts in the end game.  Duct tape isn't one of them, but bones are, yes.  If the change wasn't made at the same time they changed water, it wouldn't be connected.  Since it was the same time and the number of bones sitting around probably hasn't changed for many alphas (maybe even going back to the first alphas), it is a clear indication to me that it was intended to make you use more water.  Now, maybe I'm wrong.  But unless TFP says that had nothing to do with it, I'm going to continue to think that it was the reason.  Right or wrong, I still think it was a bad change to the recipes and, on principle, I won't craft those items anymore.  As I mentioned, most people will not care or just ignore it and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

It only negates what I quoted, that it is a clear indication of their motives. It doesn't refute the possibility and you are still free to put a probability of your liking to this being the reason.

 

Nuff said, it is only a minor point.

 

[Javabean867]

4 hours ago, theFlu said:

In a way I used to rationalize it a bit, with something like "100 forged steel isn't actually a 100 x steel, but 100x the effort to make something resembling steel".. the more high grade you require, the more effort put in.. with the crapton of "duct tape", you could think you're actually crafting some other fiber/glue product, like carbon fiber parts, just an improvised version.

 

 

I've always just rationalized it as loss during the crafting/assembly/forge welding steps.   Like you don't make a log, but you find the log that works in all the wood you have laying around.  Same with making bullet casings, the raw brass after it gets melted down probably has a lot of slag that you are tossing.  Or going through all of the gun parts you have been collecting, some are higher quality and you are picking the best of the best.

I just figured it represented a weight, and there is waste materials/poor quality material mixed into the pile of parts.  

[theFlu]

31 minutes ago, Javabean867 said:

Or going through all of the gun parts you have been collecting, some are higher quality and you are picking the best of the best.

You wouldn't really lose the rest though, except in specific circumstances; as in, you'd still have plenty of fine firewood after getting that one log. Or finding that one durable weapon part within the pile, you'd still have the lesser quality ones to make weaker arms with...

 

As for weapon parts, I'd be mildly happier if; instead of 5 different types of specific gun-type parts, you'd have 5-6 different quality tiers of Generic Gun Parts, you'd need the same rank 4 part to make either a handgun or a rifle. Those could be obscenely rare at high tiers, as you'll only need one per gun. It wouldn't be great, as it makes little sense to make wildly different weapons from the same parts, but it might play "nicer" as a rarity gate (and it'd avoid filling the item IDs with 5x5 part types).

[TWORDY]

3 hours ago, Riamus said:

If it required a bunch of electronic parts, I'd be fine with it.  But when the changes to require all that duct tape were made at the exact same time they removed jars and added a lot more duct tape to a lot of other recipes as well, it's very clear they did it only to make you need more water after making water less readily available.  I don't mind the water changes, but I do mind the extreme increase in duct tape in recipes for no reason but to make you need more water.  It isn't that I can't afford it because it's still extremely easy to have plenty of water.  But I just don't like the reason for it and so I refuse to craft things with those high duct tape changes that occurred in A21.  I could mod it out, but I don't have the original (A20, at least) recipes for things and it's just easier to stop crafting stuff that was changed like that.

 

And I've never much cared for games thinking you need a sink for stuff.  It's fine for a money sink in some cases as those tend to be things that you can do just because you have money and not because you need to -- buying unknown items from the trader in Diablo 2, for example.  But when you start throwing a bunch of stuff into recipes as a sink, it isn't a good thing, imo.  Besides, like I said, this occurred at the same time as the water changes, so it's quite clear it wasn't to use up excessive stacks of duct tape.  And there are other things that you end up with far more of than duct tape that haven't had any sinks put in for, which also makes it pretty clear that wasn't a change to add a sink.

 

Most people will just spend the duct tape and ignore the reason why the recipe was changed and there's nothing wrong with that.  But I just won't.  It's a quirk of mine, I suppose. 

 

+1

[pahbi]

Considering 90 duct tape is 9 bottles of glue and 63 pieces of cloth, its hard to see how the drone would even get off the ground.

 

If the goal is to add difficulty to crafting a T6 drone, I'd say add silver or gold to the recipe or just bump up the number of robotic parts.

 

90 tape?  Maybe if your making a flying spaghetti monster.  lol

 

 

 

[theFlu]

8 hours ago, pahbi said:

90 duct tape is 9 bottles of glue and 63 pieces of cloth

Isn't it 90 bottles and 630 cloth.. a curtain giving two, so about a dishong tower's worth of window covering. I think it's more of a para-glider than a drone...