Engaging lockpicking

[Old Crow]

The current lockpick mechanic is just.. bad. It's not engaging or fun at all. click-break-click-break-click-break is awful design, and happens way too often even with the lockpicking perk maxed out. Something more interactive, a-la Fallout and Elder Scrolls might actually be FUN.

[binf_shinana]

実際にどちらのゲームもプレイしたことがありますが、ロックピックゲームは毎回内容が変わらないわりに時間をとられるため、徐々に面倒に感じてきます。
それは逆説的に、たまにやるぶんには新鮮に感じられるため、オーバーホールMODでの導入に向いていると分析できます。

個人的には、ブロックアップグレード／ダウングレードの仕組みを利用する「リソースを引き換えにして確実に鍵が開く」方法が好みです。
ただし、これはこれで「リソースを引き換えにする価値があるものが出てこなければストレスのもとになる」という問題もあります。
私にとっての銀の弾丸はまだ見つかっていません。

(Google Translation)

I've actually played both games, but gradually I find lockpicking games tedious because they're time-consuming and the content doesn't change every time.
Paradoxically, it feels fresh to do it once in a while, so it can be analyzed that it is suitable for introduction in an overhaul MOD.

Personally, I prefer the "redeem resource to ensure unlock" method that utilizes the block upgrade/downgrade mechanics.
However, this also has the problem that 'it will be a source of stress if something worth redeeming resources does not come out'.
I haven't found my silver bullet yet.

[meganoth]

Minigames are usually so trivial (if it is some kind of puzzle) or even worse a reaction game (i.e. a quick time event) that I despise wholeheartedly. So how about a compromise: You don't need to click for the next attempt, the game just wastes lockpicks automatically until it succeeds. Furthermore lockpick time should be shortened greatly as a late game miner with pickaxe can open most boxes cheaper and at the same speed as someone lockpicking

 

 

 

 

[zztong]

I agree the Fallout approach is more engaging, but if there's going to be a simplified non-destructive entry system, I prefer the 7d2d time approach, specially when we're talking about gaining access to final loot in a locked chest.

 

It's just my opinion, but I don't find the Fallout approach to be superior because it comes with the same flaws ... picks break and lockpicking is the only mechanic. I think assembling a collection of entry tools into a kit would be better than having to replenish a constantly breaking collection of tools. I say this as neither I, nor any of my students, have ever broken a lock pick. Also, lockpicks are only one method of entry and most of the time I gain entry to my client's locations through other means -- usually a traveler's hook.

 

But the game world allows destructive entry. In most cases, you probably wouldn't bother picking a lock because breaking in is easy and you don't have to worry about police, alarms, etc.

[Riamus]

Minigame lockpicking is enjoyable only for the first few times and quickly becomes tedious.  I really don't like that in games.  I'd rather just see the lockpicking work like in some RPGs, where your skill determines whether or not you can open it at all and how many lockpicks it will take and then you just click once and after the unlock timer finishes, you're done.  This game could remove the inability to unlock something and just make it take more lockpicks with no skill.  That's much better than spending time playing a boring minigame every time or having bad RNG and using 15-20 lockpicks to open something.

[Syphon583]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I have to agree with the majority of the group here. Out of all of the token mechanics that have come out of RPGs, lockpicking minigames have to be the most tired, overused, and joy-sucking experiences ever.

 

That's not to say the mechanic in 7DTD is objectively better. However, I would far prefer the current experience to a minigame. The thing that gets me about lockpicking in general is there is no real risk. Yes, I am risking lockpicks to the RNG gods who's grins grow wider and wider with every snap of a pick until I burn through my stack of 15 resulting in the god's uproarious, maniacal laughter -- but that's it. Lockpicks have no other use and they're ridiculously easy to make. It just turns into a tedious exercise as well.

 

So yes, I would agree that there need to be changes made, but a minigame (IMO) should not be the answer. What would I do?

• Lockpicking time is based on skill (just like today, no change)
  • the more points you put into it, the less time it takes, just like looting
• Keep the chance for breaks, but drastically reduce that chance
  • Also scale the decrease with your skill level, just like today, but it should be zero chance if fully spec'd
• Greatly reduce the number of picks you find
  • Since your chance of loosing picks is greatly reduced, there is no need to find as many in the world and the ability to craft them is unlocked pretty early with the new magazine system

 

Really the big difference here is how often you break picks. The fact that they break so often is more annoying than fun (really, it's not fun at all).

Edited August 25, 2023 by Syphon583 (see edit history)

[Old Crow]

11 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

 

So yes, I would agree that there need to be changes made, but a minigame (IMO) should not be the answer. What would I do?

• Lockpicking time is based on skill (just like today, no change)
  • the more points you put into it, the less time it takes, just like looting
• Keep the chance for breaks, but drastically reduce that chance
  • Also scale the decrease with your skill level, just like today, but it should be zero chance if fully spec'd
• Greatly reduce the number of picks you find
  • Since your chance of loosing picks is greatly reduced, there is no need to find as many in the world and the ability to craft them is unlocked pretty early with the new magazine system

 

Really the big difference here is how often you break picks. The fact that they break so often is more annoying than fun (really, it's not fun at all).

 

I can definitely get behind this.

[meilodasreh]

just in case you didn't know

 

[Cernwn]

@meilodasreh: Thank you for posting this quality work by SphereII and Xyth. Haven't played the latest release, but I recall Undead Legacy by Subquake also including some fantastic immersive lockpicking. TFP, please hire them in salaried positions.

 

@minigamesAreBoring: Spamming lockpicks at a lock, without any form of jamming/clearing mechanics, damage to container contents from being smashed/exploded, availability of superior tools (snap guns), or sealed away pre-apocalypse loot, is highly immersion breaking and shows a distinct lack of imagination. I know TFP can do better than what's out there currently, because multiple modders already have...

 

TLDR; Less shovel simulator, moar varied lockpicking/traps/loot.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Cernwn (see edit history)

[meganoth]

@Cernwn: I read your post just now and have not communicated with you or interfered with you or your posts at all (at least in recent history). What have I supposed to been doing exactly?

 

EDIT: Ah, I get it. One of your posts has been held back. That happens to a lot of forum posters right now because of a new buggy plugin we are testing, even posts of moderators themselves get held back sometimes. You are the first one who thinks that I would misuse my moderator privileges for childish retaliation to a thumbs down 😆

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

even posts of moderators themselves get held back sometimes.

So, working as intended.

Most of them being annoying wiseguys anyway

 

*pokerface and slowly fading into the background*

[meganoth]

 

@ Roland: We should invite meilodasreh to be moderator, he seems to have everything it takes to be one. 😎

 

 

 

[Crashtian]

Instead of a pick breaking every time it fails, it should have a chance of just resetting the timer. Generally when lock picking the biggest risk is not breaking your lock pick, as video games seem to imply. A failure to pick a lock generally just means beginning over again.

Having a chance to break your pick should definitely still be a thing, as resource loss is a good risk/reward fundamental and realism is not an argument for video games, but getting down to 5 seconds remaining and having a failure that simply restarts the timer would work well as a QOL improvement for picking.

Also think that it should generate heat (not as much as forcibly destroying a lock with a pick axe) every time you fail to pick the lock, so that the X amount of time you're waiting while picking has some tension to it, knowing the longer it takes, the more likely you are to attract attention.

 

[meilodasreh]

7 hours ago, Crashtian said:

Instead of a pick breaking every time it fails, it should have a chance of just resetting the timer.

That is how it already works now, the timer is reset, but not completely, just to the last quarter and restarts from there every try.

It is fine imo, a complete timer reset would be a pain in the a especially for the bigger safes and reinforced chests with 20s timer.

 

A failed pick should not break the pick every time, I agree there (maybe 50% would be nice?)

But you can raise the chance of succes in lockpicking, which in the end is identical to reducing your chance of the picks breaking (don't quite remember if it's a book or a perk or both, cause I don't spec into this)

 

 

7 hours ago, Crashtian said:

the biggest risk is not breaking your lock pick, as video games seem to imply. A failure to pick a lock generally just means beginning over again.

I don't really know about this. I mean I have not tried this, just watched a lot of the funny vids of e.g. thelockpickinglawyer, and yes it seems simple and a pick never breaks, but really, those flimsy picks will surely break very easy if you do it wrong or are too impatient or whatever. You have experience with this or just guessing?

 

 

Btw I'm curious how DF will feel in this context, as Khaine imposes you the choice of picking it for the full loot, and breaking it open but with a reduced loot (like some stuff breaks inside when you brutally crack it open). Makes sense to me, but yet I'm not quite sure how I like it.

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Crashtian]

27 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

That is how it already works now, the timer is reset, but not completely, just to the last quarter and restarts from there every try.

It is fine imo, a complete timer reset would be a pain in the a especially for the bigger safes and reinforced chests with 20s timer.

 

A failed pick should not break the pick every time, I agree there (maybe 50% would be nice?)

But you can raise the chance of succes in lockpicking, which in the end is identical to reducing your chance of the picks breaking (don't quite remember if it's a book or a perk or both, cause I don't spec into this)

 

 

I don't really know about this. I mean I have not tried this, just watched a lot of the funny vids of e.g. thelockpickinglawyer, and yes it seems simple and a pick never breaks, but really, those flimsy picks will surely break very easy if you do it wrong or are too impatient or whatever. You have experience with this or just guessing?

 

 

Btw I'm curious how DF will feel in this context, as Khaine imposes you the choice of picking it for the full loot, and breaking it open but with a reduced loot (like some stuff breaks inside when you brutally crack it open). Makes sense to me, but yet I'm not quite sure how I like it.



 

 

After doing a bit more looking things up, it does seem lockpicks CAN break, but it doesn't happen often. I imagine one would have to be going pretty heavy handed. It's just funny how video games tend to portray lock picks like they are made out of a thin rod of glass.


But hey, it's not real life, So overall it doesn't matter. I just agree the mechanic is... boring and frustrating as is, to a point where even if I were to lose loot as is suggested for the DF mod, I'm still using my "lock pick" instead, which consists of a bashing tool and the paperweight on my desk resting on my mouse. Personally I would prefer a mini-game style but it's pretty clear a lot of people don't really want that either. I just rather feel like I have some control over the breaking a pick instead of just watching 10 go down the drain at the 5s mark.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Crashtian (see edit history)

[binf_shinana]

1 hour ago, meilodasreh said:

That is how it already works now, the timer is reset, but not completely, just to the last quarter and restarts from there every try.

It is fine imo, a complete timer reset would be a pain in the a especially for the bigger safes and reinforced chests with 20s timer.

 

A failed pick should not break the pick every time, I agree there (maybe 50% would be nice?)

But you can raise the chance of succes in lockpicking, which in the end is identical to reducing your chance of the picks breaking (don't quite remember if it's a book or a perk or both, cause I don't spec into this)

 

 

I don't really know about this. I mean I have not tried this, just watched a lot of the funny vids of e.g. thelockpickinglawyer, and yes it seems simple and a pick never breaks, but really, those flimsy picks will surely break very easy if you do it wrong or are too impatient or whatever. You have experience with this or just guessing?

 

 

Btw I'm curious how DF will feel in this context, as Khaine imposes you the choice of picking it for the full loot, and breaking it open but with a reduced loot (like some stuff breaks inside when you brutally crack it open). Makes sense to me, but yet I'm not quite sure how I like it.

 

ロックピックは開けるのにただ待つだけなのが苛立つという問題しかありません。他の手段に比べて特に開錠にかかる時間が長いわけではありません。
そのため、破壊するとアイテムが減る場合、少なくとも私はロックピックでの開錠しか行わなくなるでしょう。
（アイテムが減るということを知らないから破壊するのか、わかっていて破壊するかのサンプリングが難しい問題ですね）

(Google Translation)

The only problem is that waiting to open a lockpick is frustrating. It doesn't take much longer to unlock than other methods.
So if destroying it reduces items, at least I'll only be unlocking with lockpicks.
(It's a difficult problem to sample whether you destroy because you don't know that the item will be reduced, or if you know and destroy it.)

[zztong]

6 hours ago, Crashtian said:

After doing a bit more looking things up, it does seem lockpicks CAN break, but it doesn't happen often. I imagine one would have to be going pretty heavy handed.

 

I've seen students bend a pick. (I just bend it back.) I could see where a pick could be broken, maybe metal fatigue. Oddly enough, in the lab I see our cheap practice locks break. I've lost two of those to students.

 

I do like your suggestion that failure resets the timer. Yes, it is part of the game already, but the current timer reset isn't usually back more than 4 seconds. It could go further and then higher skill levels could reduce the time lost.

Edited August 27, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[Riamus]

I would stop lockpicking if the timer reset full or even more than it already does.  When you break 15 lockpicks in a row, having to restart with more time would make it not worth the effort.  Even if some stuff was broken if you break the lock, I would still do that every time just to avoid potentially spending 5 minutes picking a lock.

[Syphon583]

What if the lockpick was a tool with a quality level instead of an item that was consumed? Each quality level increased the durability, and the "break chance" would just degrade the pick a slight amount. Once the lockpick degraded fully, at that point it would break. I guess the only question would be how to increase your ability to craft higher quality picks. There is the magazine system, but I don't think we'd want to increase the number in the series overall, just work in different increments where a higher quality pick would be unlocked. Batteries work this way already (although, I don't know anyone who crafts their own batteries. That's a different topic).

[Javabean867]

Personally i think there needs to a tool that uses lock picks as ammo.  Equip the tool, use tool on locked chest, it does somewhere between 1-100% effort on getting the lock picked, and uses up the pick.  once the effort is 100% the lock is opened.

Lock picking skill would set the minimum possible to 10, 20 and 30% effort.

I'd also make picks cheaper to craft.  1 forged iron per pick at the most expensive, or what i think would be better 5 pick per forged iron.

[zztong]

6 hours ago, Riamus said:

I would stop lockpicking if the timer reset full or even more than it already does.  When you break 15 lockpicks in a row, having to restart with more time would make it not worth the effort.  Even if some stuff was broken if you break the lock, I would still do that every time just to avoid potentially spending 5 minutes picking a lock.

 

Would your calculus be the same if it took 5 minutes and you didn't break any lockpicks. That is, you press the button, wait, it unlocks? How about if higher skill levels in lockpicking would shorten the time?

 

I mean, I'd be cool with that. I'd get up and stretch my legs, maybe get a drink. It's kind of the same when I use AutoHotKey to make my toon beat through a gun safe with a stone axe.

[Cernwn]

On 8/26/2023 at 4:43 AM, meganoth said:

@Cernwn: I read your post just now and have not communicated with you or interfered with you or your posts at all (at least in recent history). What have I supposed to been doing exactly?

 

EDIT: Ah, I get it. One of your posts has been held back. That happens to a lot of forum posters right now because of a new buggy plugin we are testing, even posts of moderators themselves get held back sometimes. You are the first one who thinks that I would misuse my moderator privileges for childish retaliation to a thumbs down 😆

 

Thanks for the explanation Meganoth. My apologies for assuming. 

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

 

Would your calculus be the same if it took 5 minutes and you didn't break any lockpicks. That is, you press the button, wait, it unlocks? How about if higher skill levels in lockpicking would shorten the time?

 

I mean, I'd be cool with that. I'd get up and stretch my legs, maybe get a drink. It's kind of the same when I use AutoHotKey to make my toon beat through a gun safe with a stone axe.

If it took 5 minutes, I wouldn't pick any locks for any reason even if the pick never broke.  If lockpicking regularly takes more than about 20-30s, I wouldn't ever do it.  I can break it open faster than that by later game when I start to really see decent locked chests (tier 4/5 loot rooms).  Other locked stuff often doesn't have very good loot anyhow, so I could skip it without really caring.  The tier 4/5 locked chests might be okay to take up to a minute or so before I'd stop lockpicking them.  And even then, I'd probably get tired of it before long and stop lockpicking entirely.  Anything else needs to be much faster. 

 

As far as shorter times with higher perks, I'm fine with that.  I'd skip the lockpicking stuff until I was perked higher unless the unperked time was under about 30s or so, though.

 

On the relatively rare occasion when I have a reason to get up and do something while waiting, it's not a big deal.  But this is an action game for me.  I don't want to sit around for a long time just trying to loot something.  Except for tier 4/5 loot room locked chests, the loot in locked stuff isn't usually all that great, so I'm better off just skipping the locked container and going on to loot other things.  In the end, I'd have more and better loot than if I stop and spend a minute or two (or 5) on each locked container.  If locked containers always had really good loot, it might be different.

 

I do spend time building and mining even though those aren't really any action, but those are still me doing stuff and not just sitting there waiting for a lockpick animation to complete so it's still at least something to do.

 

That's just my own feelings about wasting a lot of time waiting around while the game very slowly opens/loots a container for you.  I know some people like minigame lockpicking and don't mind the wait so long as they aren't breaking picks but that's not enjoyable for me.  I'd rather be guaranteed to break 20 picks to open a lock in 5s than to break no picks and have it take 1 minute or more.  At least as long as crafting lockpicks didn't get made to take forever or use a ton of resources.