Ammo Rebalance?

Agent039 · July 21, 2023

I looked up the gamefiles and I was wondering if im the only one who wants the ammo-system rebalanced. And some guns aswell. For me its kinda unrealistic that a .44 Magnum does less damage than a Desert Vulture because its the same ammo. Same goes with snipers and rifles. A sniper rifle should be alot stronger than a normal rifle.

But the main reason is the "Ammo-Types" (im comparing .44 cause i like big handcannons):

Normal-Ammo (wich is in the loot pool) 70 dmg

HP-Ammo (wich isn't in the loot pool) 77 dmg

AP-Ammo (wich isn't in the loot pool) 84 dmg + 50% armor penetration

I was thinking wouldn't it be more realistic to make every bullet the same damage or atleast buff the HP ammo because you have to craft it.

My thought was:

Normal 70 dmg

HP 70 dmg + 50% dmg if the enemy isnt wearing armor (the devs need to add a new variable for checking armor) and maybe -25% dmg if the enemy is wearing armor

AP 70 dmg + 50% armor penetration

Normal and AP can be same damage value because in reality if you get shot by both bullets if you dont have armor and the bullet would go through flesh... in both scenarios it should almost do the same damage. (same "clean holes" in the body) But if you get shot by HP normaly the bullet expands and creates a large exit wound or damages more flesh. They could even do +100% dmg when hitting flesh but -50% dmg if you hit armor to get it a bit more balanced.

I want to hear your thoughts about that "ammo realism". Because currently only normal or AP is used. AP because HP isn't worth it of crafting and normal because you get alot from it from the loot pool. And maybe a rebalance some of the weapon types... rifles and snipers that share the same ammo type for whatever reason :D.

The reason is... when the devs offer 3 ammo types... every type should have a reason to exist and its own "special ability". Normal ones shouldn't be special but atleast the ones you have to craft currently.

Javabean867 · July 21, 2023

I imagine the 'logic' behind the damage difference is that revolvers may not burn the gun powder as efficiently. So muzzle velocity is not the same.

As far as ap ammo goes. It should do less damage to un-armored targets. It simply doesn't 'explode' as well as normal ammo.

Agent039 · July 21, 2023

Im aware of the fact that the gun makes an impact on the damage/muzzle velocity. But from the looks of the guns both barrels are almost the same length because the longer the barrel the better the acceleration of the bullet. The next part is, should the magnum in the game the oldest versions or the newer ones. Revolvers still get new versions wich are better. So that fact with the efficiency shouldnt make a big impact against a "Deagle"

And my main focus was more on HP ammo because its a almost unused ammo type but in RL very effective.

seagas · July 21, 2023

Tier level differences, hunting rifle is 2 tiers below sniper rifle. It's same with most tools and weapons, as you go up in tier, the damage increases. So the Vulture is a higher tier than the revolver. This is a video game, not a real life simulation.

Kazgrel · July 21, 2023

Loosely related, I'd like to see HP ammo drop or be sold more at the vendor. Generally we (my group of friends that play together) hold off on ammo crafting until we can bulk craft AP ammo, so HP ammo basically never gets made/used. Maybe we're doing it wrong but we figure the mats are better spent on rounds that can hit multiple targets potentially.

Riamus · July 22, 2023

Heh, I'm kind of the opposite. I never use HP or AP ammo unless I build up a stack or two and feel like using it up. Most zombies drop after a headshot and one more headshot will finish them with regular ammo (9mm or 44). Why bother with expensive ammo? I get the armor piercing maybe hitting more zombies but I can get that with a 44 by completing the book set.

When I used the junk turret at my horde base in A20, I did make AP ammo for that because it was cheap but the cost for even normal ammo now for it isn't worth using it anymore.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

Agent039 · July 22, 2023

Im aware that the game has different Tiers and im okay with that because I dont really use the Magnum I prefer the "Deagle". But it would be more realistic for the latest T3 weapons to be more effective against the larger zombies because I dont think if you get a .44 magnum HP or a 7.62mm HP in your head that there would be something left. (atleast in it) My main focus is on the HP ammo wich is currently unused. (mostly due to the fact that you have to craft it and AP at that point is better) Thats why I said in my opinion the Game needs a rebalance with weapons and ammo to make everything a good choice.

theFlu · July 22, 2023

4 minutes ago, Agent039 said:

Thats why I said in my opinion the Game needs a rebalance with weapons and ammo to make everything a good choice.

There's always the option of reducing the basic ammo damage by half. Atm we have the powers of the ammo types quite close to one another, but one does multiple targets and armor reduction, becoming the easy "winner". The basic type is given everywhere, so it's "always available". A third type would need its own niche to be actually employed.

I can't come up with a good niche for HP, that would solve the issue and fit the game. Might give AP rounds a damage reduction "due to overpenetration", make it something like 30% weaker than the regulars on soft targets (as in just reduce the actual damage of the round on all targets). It would still do more on two softies, and slightly more on a single 50% armored one. Then you might use two types simultaneously, AP, and one of normal or HP. But I don't think it would feel that great, people would still just opt for one or the other, begrudgingly accepting the loss involved. A decently organized group could mix and match between players, but that's about it.

Agent039 · July 22, 2023

I found a solution for the problem wich makes HP ammo less efficient against armor. TFP commented a function for HP out but it still works. Seems like they didn't figured out how they can reverse the AP effect. The items.xml file needs to be adjusted + ui_display.xml file needs a change to display the new value. Maybe send that to "The Fun Pimps"... i fixed their not working function by using a currently working one

Orange-Text = commented out.

Yellow-Text = the important line.

(items.xml file)

HP - default:

AP - default:

   <effect_group name="perkPenetrator" tiered="false">
       <passive_effect name="TargetArmor" operation="perc_add" value="-.1" tags="perkGunslinger,9mmGun">
           <requirement name="ProgressionLevel" progression_name="perkPenetrator" operation="Equals" value="1"/></passive_effect>
       <passive_effect name="TargetArmor" operation="perc_add" value="-.15" tags="perkGunslinger,9mmGun">
           <requirement name="ProgressionLevel" progression_name="perkPenetrator" operation="Equals" value="2"/></passive_effect>
       <passive_effect name="TargetArmor" operation="perc_add" value="-.2" tags="perkGunslinger,9mmGun">
           <requirement name="ProgressionLevel" progression_name="perkPenetrator" operation="Equals" value="3"/></passive_effect>
       <passive_effect name="TargetArmor" operation="perc_add" value="-.3" tags="perkGunslinger,9mmGun">
           <requirement name="ProgressionLevel" progression_name="perkPenetrator" operation="Equals" value="4"/></passive_effect>
   </effect_group>
</item>

HP - modified:

<passive_effect name="TargetArmor" operation="perc_add" value=".5" tags="perkGunslinger"/><display_value name="dTargetArmor" value=".5"/>
       
       <passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" value="-.8" tags="earth"/>
       <passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" value="2" tags="wood"/>
   </effect_group>
</item>

(ui_display.xml file)

default:

<item_display_info display_type="ammoBulletHP" display_group="groupAmmo">
           <display_entry name="EntityDamage" display_type="Decimal1" title_key="statEntityDamageRanged" tags="perkGunslinger,perkBoomstick,perkDeadEye,perkMachineGunner,perkBookAutoWeapons,perkTurrets,perkArchery,admin"/>
           
           <display_entry name="BlockDamage" display_type="Decimal1" title_key="statBlockDamage" tags="perkGunslinger,perkBoomstick,perkDeadEye,perkMachineGunner,perkBookAutoWeapons,perkTurrets,perkArchery,admin"/>
       </item_display_info>

modified:

        <item_display_info display_type="ammoBulletHP" display_group="groupAmmo">
           <display_entry name="EntityDamage" display_type="Decimal1" title_key="statEntityDamageRanged" tags="perkGunslinger,perkBoomstick,perkDeadEye,perkMachineGunner,perkBookAutoWeapons,perkTurrets,perkArchery,admin"/>
            <display_entry name="dTargetArmor" title_key="statTargetArmor" display_type="Percent" display_leading_plus="true" negative_preferred="true" tags="perkGunslinger,perkBoomstick,perkDeadEye,perkMachineGunner,perkBookAutoWeapons,perkTurrets,perkArchery,admin"/>
           <display_entry name="BlockDamage" display_type="Decimal1" title_key="statBlockDamage" tags="perkGunslinger,perkBoomstick,perkDeadEye,perkMachineGunner,perkBookAutoWeapons,perkTurrets,perkArchery,admin"/>
       </item_display_info>

I just pasted the line from the AP rounds in the HP Ammo and changed the - (deleted it) to not make a 50% penetration for armor but its now a reduction for armor. Tested the dmg against a Demo-Zomb multiple times and the HP now does less damage then the normal ammo but it shreads through unarmored zombs I also increased the damage for HP by 100% by doubling the damage.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Agent039 (see edit history)

Agent039 · July 22, 2023

I dont know how the calculation of the damage works, but i got what i wanted.

I doubled the damage and the damage recieved is less than the normal one. Maybe someone could bring up a calculation how the damage is caculated because 77x2= 154 (on the deagle) then the damage reduction for armor should make it 77 again. And the damage recieved on a demo was 68 or 63 idk exactly. but the normal did something with 100+ damage.

Agent039 · July 24, 2023

I tested it multiple times and for me it looks like it's working how I wanted it to be. (tested on demo and soldier)

Still I don't know how the damage calculation works in the game.

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