Some of these changes may make for a bad experience for new players.

[Kiern]

I have been playing the game for a while, so I can deal with all of the changes (Most of which I really like), but they do make the early game much more difficult, and mention of the Steam summer sale made me think about new players. 

 

New players already have a lot to figure out, without all the additional things that can frustrate and kill them.  Not only is water harder to come by, but you can't boil it until you find a cooking pot.  You also need to find a grill to make some of the basic food items.  Then there are the ridiculously easy to get status effects.  In that early game you are going to get them often, especially as a newer player still trying to get used to the mechanics.  Stamina has always been an early game issue, but now it is compounded by all of these other issues.  New players should be eased into the game, but they are now being thrown immediately into the deep end.  Can you imagine what a new player would think when the left side of their screen is full of status effects, they can't run, they can jump, they get stunned easily, they bleed out, they get infected, they're starving and dehydrated, etc, and they have no way to fix it, even if they knew how.  Yes, in time these things will be much less of an issue, but they won't know that.  That is their first, possibly only, impression of the game.  Many will assume that is just how the whole game is and give up.  It may not be the best idea to design the game specifically around players who have been playing for years.  

 

Just some food for thought.  No need to reply.  I'm good with the new challenges, and I know it gets better once I get some items and skills under my belt.  Unfortunately, new players won't have that knowledge to motivate them to push through.

 

EDIT:  Some people have misunderstood what I am suggesting.  The main issue is how status effects are being applied so easily.  With how stamina is in the early game, new players are going to get hit a lot, and get these status effects a lot and possibly die a lot.  I'm not suggesting there is a problem with stamina, only that because the early game stamina drain, the status effects are even more brutal for inexperienced players.  I am not suggesting that the game be made easier, in general.  Mostly I would like to see the status effects changed.  I did not see this on the known issue list, so i didn't know if this was working as intended.  If it is, then it is going to be a bad experience for new players.  Some have said that one of the devs said that it was being worked on.  I did not see this, but if that is the case then most of my concerns will be addressed.  Other than that, maybe an extra water, a better food item, and something added to the game to let players know they need to find a cooking pot and grill.  It could be in the pop-up note from the guy that saved us.  If the status effects are working as intended, which i hope is not the case, then I would suggest starting with a few more bandages, a honey, some painkillers, and a splint.  I am not suggesting that the game be made easier.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Kiern (see edit history)

[theFlu]

I dunno man, I wouldn't disagree if you were talking about a care-bear mode, but we have quite a few settings already to reduce the difficulty.

 

But for the base game, the things you mention seem rather on the weak side. Debuffs are actually kinda fine atm, but I think they're just way more common than they're meant to be - something feels broken in the "getting hit" -part, if that gets sorted the debuffs will be weak. I'd make them rarer but more of a headache.. I mean, a concussion cured with an aspirin? Just make it last the 2 hours, and remove its temporary effects with pills - makes you possibly have to manage your stack of pain pills all smart-like.

 

Tic Tac Toe, Checkers, Chess, Go ... all have their places, but none of them are "made" with the beginner in mind. Except maybe the basic tic tac toe ..

 

I'm not against making the game beginner-friendly, just not as an end point. Give me a Go of survival games and give it a good tutorial ..

[pApA^LeGBa]

Critical injuries are a bit on the harsh side atm. Nothing a experienced player can´t handle. I remember my first zombie hit in A21. Instant concussion, i kill him and the next one, move on to the next room and the next zombie hits me and gives me bleeding. Overall i had 4 critical injuries and 3 times bleeding on day one. A bit too much for new players, i have to agree here and difficulty settings can´t really change that.

Edited July 8, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Kiern]

15 hours ago, theFlu said:

I dunno man, I wouldn't disagree if you were talking about a care-bear mode, but we have quite a few settings already to reduce the difficulty.

 

But for the base game, the things you mention seem rather on the weak side. Debuffs are actually kinda fine atm, but I think they're just way more common than they're meant to be - something feels broken in the "getting hit" -part, if that gets sorted the debuffs will be weak. I'd make them rarer but more of a headache.. I mean, a concussion cured with an aspirin? Just make it last the 2 hours, and remove its temporary effects with pills - makes you possibly have to manage your stack of pain pills all smart-like.

 

Tic Tac Toe, Checkers, Chess, Go ... all have their places, but none of them are "made" with the beginner in mind. Except maybe the basic tic tac toe ..

 

I'm not against making the game beginner-friendly, just not as an end point. Give me a Go of survival games and give it a good tutorial ..

Well, that's the thing.  They are status effects are way over the top atm, and can be applied in one hit. Lets face it, new players are going to get hit a lot.   Stamina is horrible in the beginning, and that will be frustrating enough. 

 

And, I'm talking new players just starting out.  They won't have a stack of pain pills to use, or any other meds.  They have nothing but a can of pasta sauce, one bandage, and one water. They will have to find a cooking pan to boil more water and a grill to cook with.  Even as an experienced player, the RNG in finding these things can be very generous or extremely stingy.  I just started a new game and it took me days of searching kitchens to find both.  In my previous game I found both in the same place, very early on.  New players, however, won't even know they need these items.  I can foresee new players dying a lot in frustrating ways that they have no control over, and just giving up on the game.

 

I'm not talking about making the game easier, just not as punishing in the early game.  New players should have some time to figure things out.  Your comparisons to Checkers, Chess and Go are not accurate of the situation I am talking about.  It would be more like you losing on the first move of the game, over and over.  How long would a new player keep playing if that were the case? 

[Rince]

Can't be worse that the ARK first experience.

 

Getting eaten by a raptor.

Killed a Dodo! Getting eaten by a raptor.

I'm dying of hunger! A dodo!! Nvm, got eaten by a raptor.

 

But, what I think that will be bad for new players is the delay to be able to drink water from sources. How they are supposed to know that? Needs to be a step in the tutorial quests.

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, Kiern said:

Well, that's the thing.  They are status effects are way over the top atm, and can be applied in one hit. Lets face it, new players are going to get hit a lot.   Stamina is horrible in the beginning, and that will be frustrating enough. 

 

And, I'm talking new players just starting out.  They won't have a stack of pain pills to use, or any other meds.  They have nothing but a can of pasta sauce, one bandage, and one water. They will have to find a cooking pan to boil more water and a grill to cook with.  Even as an experienced player, the RNG in finding these things can be very generous or extremely stingy.  I just started a new game and it took me days of searching kitchens to find both.  In my previous game I found both in the same place, very early on.  New players, however, won't even know they need these items.  I can foresee new players dying a lot in frustrating ways that they have no control over, and just giving up on the game.

 

I'm not talking about making the game easier, just not as punishing in the early game.  New players should have some time to figure things out.  Your comparisons to Checkers, Chess and Go are not accurate of the situation I am talking about.  It would be more like you losing on the first move of the game, over and over.  How long would a new player keep playing if that were the case? 

I think this is a confusion of new player and casual player.  When I was a new player, I was able to pick it up quickly and even though I died of hunger or thirst (I forget which) and then had problems with infection, bringing it up to somewhere in the 70% range, and plenty of deaths, it didn't turn me away from the game.  Someone who isn't a gamer or is a very casual gamer would likely have far more trouble and decide the game isn't for them.  And, you know... it probably isn't.  You may lose some players who would have enjoyed the game just because of the difficulty at the beginning but I think this will be a lower number than you're suggesting.  You should give new players credit.  They aren't stupid and most can figure out how to play the game.  There are much harder games out there to play and they do just fine.

 

Now, I do want to be clear.  When the game is giving you multiple debuffs from a single hit, that's not okay.  I stopped playing for a while in b313 because I was getting so many debuffs from every hit and was bleeding from about 1/3 of all hits.  That isn't acceptable.  But I haven't had the same experience since in other saves.  They have said the multiple debuffs is a bug so they should be fixing that eventually (I'd have expected it before stable but they rushed stable).  The multiple debuffs and extremely frequent debuffs are definitely something that will turn away players who would normally enjoy the game, so that's definitely something that needs to be fixed.

 

But the other things - stamina, being able to cook, etc. - these don't need to be made easier.  They are fine as they are.  It won't take someone long to figure out how to deal with stamina.  It's not really that hard once you see how it works and especially if you've played any other game that has stamina as something you have to manage.  Being able to cook isn't a big deal as you can get pots and grills from the trader and most players will understand that traders sell things and if they need something, that's a good place to look.  Infection can be a pain until they learn to harvest honey from stumps and then it's a minor issue.  That's simply a learning curve and I don't see a problem with it.  It takes a long time to die from infection and if you can't figure out how to deal with infection before that happens, well... this isn't the right game for you to be playing, imo.

 

Excessive bleeding fits in with the bug fix for multiple debuffs and super frequent debuffs.  It needs to be toned down if it's still a problem.  I haven't had an issue with it since that first game so maybe it's fixed already or I've just been lucky.  But if it's not fixed and RNG allows it to happen very frequently, then it does need fixed as that is something that will push away players.

[pottervogel]

3 hours ago, Rince said:

But, what I think that will be bad for new players is the delay to be able to drink water from sources. How they are supposed to know that? Needs to be a step in the tutorial quests.

I think thats more an issue for old players, since almost every survival game has water issues when you start. actually you can drink murky water, but it's not healthy. 

[Skaarphy]

Not sure if this is really such a huge issue. The very first zombies you meet are simple, slow and isolated ones, ideal for practice. Plus you have this death protection buff where you don't lose anything except your stuff, which you can then go pick up. If people are not able to figure things out after a few attempts and get so frustrated from that that they stop playing the game, I don't know, that seems to be on them.

 

Food and water is a bit of a different issue but still managable. You are hungry and thirsty? When you ask yourself where to find water and food the obvious answer is people's homes. And when you go into people's homes you easily find some. Not much but usually easily accessible. You might get into trouble if you go deeper than the kitchen but that's how you learn, isn't it? So you just do kitchens if the risk of the upper floors seems too high for you.   

 

I don't know, it seems to me that just asking yourself what you need and how to get it - and being sensible about it - gets you through the first days without much frustration, even as a complete noob in these types of games. 

Edited July 9, 2023 by Skaarphy (see edit history)

[theFlu]

8 hours ago, Kiern said:

I'm not talking about making the game easier, just not as punishing in the early game. 

All right; I don't how that would work, so lets hear some practical ideas. What would you change to make the game harder and less punishing?

 

Or more interestingly, what do you actually want to change? The debuff overload is likely a bug, it will be fixed to a more reasonable amount. Other than that you've mentioned all kinds of things, but not if there's anything you'd like to change about them.

[doughphunghus]

1 hour ago, Skaarphy said:

Plus you have this death protection buff where you don't lose anything except your stuff, which you can then go pick up.

I feel a possible solution (and not just nerfing the zombie giving you many status debuff issues, which i like but i do understand can be a 0-> helpless very fast issue) would be:

 

1. buff the "Newbie Coat" that you start out with (it lasts 5? Game days?) to do more, like protect against the status debuff issue. I think the newbie coat already "slowly wears off" each day offering less protection (i haven't looked at the xml to validate).

Additionally: maybe show the status debuffs you would have gotten (like in green?) while wearing the newbie coat, so noobs can go "huh?" And click on them and read they were protected from "x" for the next few days.

 

2. the tutorial has gotten much better, but i feel maybe a secondary "long set of goals" tutorial (or something, maybe just a nice journal tip) would tell new players something like "hey, it would be a good idea to start finding ways to get food and water. Start hunting with bows and arrows and scavenge a cooking pot for the campfire to boil water". I could see these not being "goals" to work for that are at the too right, like the tutorial, but just a few journal entries unlocked after getting to the trader to help guide you to the next few "obvious" baby steps. Like once you cook some water/food, it mentions the forge and vehicles. Or maybe even mentions the blood moon and "preparing". A nice mini progression.

 

3. if the noobie tutorial is "a lot" it would be nice to have a config to enable/disable it, as people have made mods to make it "a single step" just to get past it.

 

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

I feel a possible solution (and not just nerfing the zombie giving you many status debuff issues, which i like but i do understand can be a 0-> helpless very fast issue) would be:

 

1. buff the "Newbie Coat" that you start out with (it lasts 5? Game days?) to do more, like protect against the status debuff issue. I think the newbie coat already "slowly wears off" each day offering less protection (i haven't looked at the xml to validate).

Additionally: maybe show the status debuffs you would have gotten (like in green?) while wearing the newbie coat, so noobs can go "huh?" And click on them and read they were protected from "x" for the next few days.

 

2. the tutorial has gotten much better, but i feel maybe a secondary "long set of goals" tutorial (or something, maybe just a nice journal tip) would tell new players something like "hey, it would be a good idea to start finding ways to get food and water. Start hunting with bows and arrows and scavenge a cooking pot for the campfire to boil water". I could see these not being "goals" to work for that are at the too right, like the tutorial, but just a few journal entries unlocked after getting to the trader to help guide you to the next few "obvious" baby steps. Like once you cook some water/food, it mentions the forge and vehicles. Or maybe even mentions the blood moon and "preparing". A nice mini progression.

 

3. if the noobie tutorial is "a lot" it would be nice to have a config to enable/disable it, as people have made mods to make it "a single step" just to get past it.

 

The tutorial definitely needs improvements.  It gives you multiple steps about crafting weapons, tools and armor even though a single step would teach people how to craft and a note on completion or just in the active quest text on the side of the screen that suggests they should craft clothing and weapons and tools should be enough.  Then they can add in other things like cooking and such to help the player learn these things.  The tutorial should also be optional and allow you to still get the perk points even if you don't do the tutorial.  There is zero reason to make players complete the tutorial every single game (without modding it) just to get the perk points.  Those points are too valuable to just skip the tutorial for most people.  A tutorial is for new players, not experienced players.

 

As far as the journal entries, I think that needs to be reworked.  I've never read them and always forget about them.  They are so out of your notice that I think few people actually read them.  If there was some notice on the side of the screen that stated you had unread journal entries, that might help, though I think that should also be optional as journal entries are again only useful for new players.  The current toast message that disappears in a second or two isn't enough to get people to look at the journal.

 

Having info on later aspects of the game is a bit challenging to make fit in well.  Unless you get such a tutorial quest from the trader after completing a quest tier, there's no good way to offer up such a quest.  You can offer up journal entries but, as I mentioned, those are so easy to not think about that I doubt many people read them.

[PoppaSmirk]

Hmm, this Topic is intriguing as I have had some players that I suggested to give 7DtD a try since Alpha21 dropped ( coupled with the insanely low price during the Summer Sale ).  To My knowledge two people purchased the game based on my recent recommendation and one of those two came to me via STEAM messages saying they "got their @$$ kicked" and unsure if the game was for them".  That Person was invited to join us in a MP session on my current rwg.  Of course we shared multiple tips and precautions, along with a few items.  (This particular gamer preferred overall to earn their own items, which I can totally respect).  We played together for roughly two hours and now that Gamer is saying they are eager to play more. 

 

So, possibly after reading the previous ideas and critiques shared by others;  could it be possible to have an "optional leaflet" that would become available when the player reaches that first Trader.  Experienced players could deny the leaflet but newer players could decide to accept it if they wished??   The leaflet could be written in a lore friendly dialogue,  possibly in the tone of a grizzled Veteran Survivor  (Maybe invent a name for the 'Founder' of White River Traders and use that fictional person as the Author of the Leaflet).   The Leaflet would give some additional 'tips' to survival in the early stages of the game.   Just an idea !

[Riamus]

5 minutes ago, PoppaSmirk said:

Hmm, this Topic is intriguing as I have had some players that I suggested to give 7DtD a try since Alpha21 dropped ( coupled with the insanely low price during the Summer Sale ).  To My knowledge two people purchased the game based on my recent recommendation and one of those two came to me via STEAM messages saying they "got their @$$ kicked" and unsure if the game was for them".  That Person was invited to join us in a MP session on my current rwg.  Of course we shared multiple tips and precautions, along with a few items.  (This particular gamer preferred overall to earn their own items, which I can totally respect).  We played together for roughly two hours and now that Gamer is saying they are eager to play more. 

 

So, possibly after reading the previous ideas and critiques shared by others;  could it be possible to have an "optional leaflet" that would become available when the player reaches that first Trader.  Experienced players could deny the leaflet but newer players could decide to accept it if they wished??   The leaflet could be written in a lore friendly dialogue,  possibly in the tone of a grizzled Veteran Survivor  (Maybe invent a name for the 'Founder' of White River Traders and use that fictional person as the Author of the Leaflet).   The Leaflet would give some additional 'tips' to survival in the early stages of the game.   Just an idea !

That's not a bad idea, though it might be somewhat lengthy.  Maybe just a reminder to read the Journal entries off and on as new ones are added to get more helpful hints.  Granted, I've never read them, so I don't know if they really are at all helpful.

[7daysOfFun]

On 7/8/2023 at 6:44 AM, Kiern said:

I have been playing the game for a while, so I can deal with all of the changes (Most of which I really like), but they do make the early game much more difficult, and mention of the Steam summer sale made me think about new players. 

 

New players already have a lot to figure out, without all the additional things that can frustrate and kill them.  Not only is water harder to come by, but you can't boil it until you find a cooking pot.  You also need to find a grill to make some of the basic food items.  Then there are the ridiculously easy to get status effects.  In that early game you are going to get them often, especially as a newer player still trying to get used to the mechanics.  Stamina has always been an early game issue, but now it is compounded by all of these other issues.  New players should be eased into the game, but they are now being thrown immediately into the deep end.  Can you imagine what a new player would think when the left side of their screen is full of status effects, they can't run, they can jump, they get stunned easily, they bleed out, they get infected, they're starving and dehydrated, etc, and they have no way to fix it, even if they knew how.  Yes, in time these things will be much less of an issue, but they won't know that.  That is their first, possibly only, impression of the game.  Many will assume that is just how the whole game is and give up.  It may not be the best idea to design the game specifically around players who have been playing for years.  

 

Just some food for thought.  No need to reply.  I'm good with the new challenges, and I know it gets better once I get some items and skills under my belt.  Unfortunately, new players won't have that knowledge to motivate them to push through.

sorry no...

the mixing of the new difficult is good... the FIRST LEVEL POINTS are VERY IMPORTANT 1.heal factor,2.carring 3.hammer powerful 4.chief cook

-a cooking pod u find in 70% of kitchens, it takes 5 buildings and you have one

-the magazine have MORE from food and health magazine, when u make 5 lvl quest, u can cook, u can heal

the key is: make the trader missions lvl1

weapons for start are: stone sledgehammer and bow... a chicken and rabbit u can kill with stone axt while running

easiest point for new player is the WOOD or desert... no start on ice or destroyed

the water yes..thats a point, BUT u must loot at the start the dirty water or GET the collector (than u can build the water station, but the requieres 100plastics)

i had a trick.. u buy a bucket, then u collect water from a source (open map, where it is blue > near house, u can collect)

then u make a hole 2x2 and let the water in...u can drink dirty water, its hasnt a big difference..

with 1 bucket u can drink ~30/40times

food u can find in kitchens or all whats like a house with cooking station in it, the cheapest way is chickens/rabbit catching in the city

[Kiern]

3 minutes ago, 7daysOfFun said:

sorry no...

the mixing of the new difficult is good... the FIRST LEVEL POINTS are VERY IMPORTANT 1.heal factor,2.carring 3.hammer powerful 4.chief cook

-a cooking pod u find in 70% of kitchens, it takes 5 buildings and you have one

-the magazine have MORE from food and health magazine, when u make 5 lvl quest, u can cook, u can heal

the key is: make the trader missions lvl1

weapons for start are: stone sledgehammer and bow... a chicken and rabbit u can kill with stone axt while running

easiest point for new player is the WOOD or desert... no start on ice or destroyed

the water yes..thats a point, BUT u must loot at the start the dirty water or GET the collector (than u can build the water station, but the requieres 100plastics)

i had a trick.. u buy a bucket, then u collect water from a source (open map, where it is blue > near house, u can collect)

then u make a hole 2x2 and let the water in...u can drink dirty water, its hasnt a big difference..

with 1 bucket u can drink ~30/40times

food u can find in kitchens or all whats like a house with cooking station in it, the cheapest way is chickens/rabbit catching in the city

You are looking at it from an experienced player's point of view, not from the perspective of a player that knows nothing about the game.  Sorry, but new players are not going to be able to easily chase down chickens and rabbits.  They won't even know that they can get meat from them.  Cooking pots are definitely not in 70% of kitchens.  Maybe 20% tops, and it is heavily RNG dependent. Not to mention, new players don't even know they need them, so aren't going to be looking for them right away.   Status effects are brutal now. Stamina sucks in the early game and new players are going to constantly be in situations where they can't run, jump, or use their weapon and get hit and have a bunch of status effects applied.  They wouldn't know anything about a dew collector, and wouldn't be able to build one even if they did.  It's not the plastics that is the issue, it's the filters.

 

All the stuff you mention is stuff you only know because you have been playing the game a while and know what you need to do and how to do it.  Which you learned when the start of the game was easier.  New players won't have that knowledge or skill.  Not sure what your issue is with making a better starting experience for new players.  The Fun Pimps, however, need to concern themselves with making a good first impression with new players, whether you like it or not.  I posted feedback for them.  They can make the decision for themselves.      

[Kiern]

11 hours ago, theFlu said:

All right; I don't how that would work, so lets hear some practical ideas. What would you change to make the game harder and less punishing?

 

Or more interestingly, what do you actually want to change? The debuff overload is likely a bug, it will be fixed to a more reasonable amount. Other than that you've mentioned all kinds of things, but not if there's anything you'd like to change about them.

Part of it would depend on whether the debuff overload is actually a bug or working as intended.  It was not on their list of known issues despite a lot of people complaining about it.  

 

They could start players with a little more food, water, bandages, meds, etc.  They could expand the tutorial, and explain that they will need to find a pot to boil water, and a grill and where to look for them. They could make sure they always spawn closer to a trader rather than 1-2k away.  They could explain how to improve their stamina, and other basics.  New players may assume that their stamina will always suck.  

 

None of that is going to make the game easier, overall.  It will just make the early game a little less unforgiving to new players, and provide them with a bit more information on what they need to do.  

[doughphunghus]

51 minutes ago, Kiern said:

They wouldn't know anything about a dew collector

Yeah, if i remember correctly "knowing i could and had to craft a forge" was the killer in my early games. Knowing about a campfire is 1 thing, but knowing "workstations are super important to really progress at all" may seem silly and obvious, but it wasn't to me because i was not used to crafting games and the "large amount of buttons and items" so i just figured as i played the "next important thing to do" would present itself in an obvious way. Reading all the stuff just doesn't feel normal, especially when (as an early player) you just run around and try to survive/hide during the night as you don't know what attracts zombies, how bad they will be, etc.

[theFlu]

29 minutes ago, Kiern said:

They could start players with a little more food, water, bandages, meds, etc.  They could expand the tutorial, and explain that they will need to find a pot to boil water, and a grill and where to look for them. They could make sure they always spawn closer to a trader rather than 1-2k away.  They could explain how to improve their stamina, and other basics.  New players may assume that their stamina will always suck.

Tutorial will likely get updates before gold; I'd be surprised if not. But it covers most basics already. No point in re-writing it for every intermediate alpha, but it is pretty up to date from a quick check. At least the Water section mentions Dew Collector and the drinking from lakes mechanic (although with a hard-coded keybind).

 

More supplies.. I wouldn't vote against giving every Adventurer (default difficulty) their very own Dora-bag, with all the nutrients a growing adventurer needs for a few days or weeks. I don't want one for the proper game though, surviving with the current stuff isn't exactly difficult. Giving me two days worth of supplies from the get go takes away me ever seeing the thirst icon in a game.

 

Spawn points, yeah, those will likely get an improvement as well; althou they seem to have opted for "an easy wilderness POI to loot at start", so it might be partly a map gen issue.

[Kiern]

31 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Tutorial will likely get updates before gold; I'd be surprised if not. But it covers most basics already. No point in re-writing it for every intermediate alpha, but it is pretty up to date from a quick check. At least the Water section mentions Dew Collector and the drinking from lakes mechanic (although with a hard-coded keybind).

 

More supplies.. I wouldn't vote against giving every Adventurer (default difficulty) their very own Dora-bag, with all the nutrients a growing adventurer needs for a few days or weeks. I don't want one for the proper game though, surviving with the current stuff isn't exactly difficult. Giving me two days worth of supplies from the get go takes away me ever seeing the thirst icon in a game.

 

Spawn points, yeah, those will likely get an improvement as well; althou they seem to have opted for "an easy wilderness POI to loot at start", so it might be partly a map gen issue.

Well, they haven't mentioned updating the tutorial or spawn points, so I wouldn't assume it. The tutorial doesn't cover the water situation, the journal does, and most people won't know, or think to read that.  They could just add something in that pop-up from the guy that rescued us, telling them that they will need to find those things. That would be pretty easy to add in. If they are already working on some of these things, they can read my suggestions and know they are already working on it.  If not, it may give them something to think about.  

 

You are being even more generous than I was thinking, with the supplies.  Maybe just one or two extra of each, or at least a better food item than a can of pasta.  Other things will depend on whether the current status situation is intended or a bug. More bandages, and maybe a painkiller and honey, if it is working as intended.  If they make it like it was, they can probably do without those.    

[theFlu]

15 minutes ago, Kiern said:

Well, they haven't mentioned updating the tutorial or spawn points, so I wouldn't assume it.

They've launched pretty much every alpha with RWG issues at start, then improved them over time. Spawn points specifically have been wild as well. It's pretty much a X.0 feature by now..

They haven't mentioned .. in the scale of the game dev, anything, really. They're still building the structure of the game, everything will be overhauled once they reach some kind of a final vision. Some snarky people might suspect that everything will get overhauled half a dozen times still, at least...

[Rince]

15 hours ago, pottervogel said:

I think thats more an issue for old players, since almost every survival game has water issues when you start. actually you can drink murky water, but it's not healthy. 

I mean that you must unequip any tool/weapon and stare the water for two seconds.

I saw people trying to get the correct angle, or trying to figure why the prompt to drink water doesn't appear.

 

And speaking of new people, probably starting with a trader in the middle of nowhere maybe would not be very fun for a new player.

[Kiern]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

They've launched pretty much every alpha with RWG issues at start, then improved them over time. Spawn points specifically have been wild as well. It's pretty much a X.0 feature by now..

They haven't mentioned .. in the scale of the game dev, anything, really. They're still building the structure of the game, everything will be overhauled once they reach some kind of a final vision. Some snarky people might suspect that everything will get overhauled half a dozen times still, at least...

Yeah, I mean, they haven't mentioned it in the roadmap or on their known issues list, so we have no idea if they are planning to change those things.  It's better to mention it.  If they are already planning on doing it they will ignore the post, if not they may add it to the list.  I'm just providing feedback.   They can do what they want with it.  

 

I don't think there will be any major overhauls after A22.  Last I heard they expected the Gold release to come after A22.  Not a commitment, of course. They also mentioned that they may have an early release version for console in A22.  That may be even less firm, and more of a guess, because another company is developing that.  Once it goes to console they can't do those major overhauls that require you to start a new game.  Sony and Microsoft frown on that, apparently.  

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, Rince said:

I mean that you must unequip any tool/weapon and stare the water for two seconds.

I saw people trying to get the correct angle, or trying to figure why the prompt to drink water doesn't appear.

 

And speaking of new people, probably starting with a trader in the middle of nowhere maybe would not be very fun for a new player.

This is the one thing that would definitely cause problems for new players.  It is a poorly designed mechanic.  You should be able to drink with something in your hands and without standing still for a couple of seconds.  It should be far easier to do.

 

And I've also mentioned before that the starting trader shouldn't be a wilderness trader.  That is a pain even for many veteran players.

 

4 hours ago, Kiern said:

You are looking at it from an experienced player's point of view, not from the perspective of a player that knows nothing about the game.  Sorry, but new players are not going to be able to easily chase down chickens and rabbits.  They won't even know that they can get meat from them.  Cooking pots are definitely not in 70% of kitchens.  Maybe 20% tops, and it is heavily RNG dependent. Not to mention, new players don't even know they need them, so aren't going to be looking for them right away.   Status effects are brutal now. Stamina sucks in the early game and new players are going to constantly be in situations where they can't run, jump, or use their weapon and get hit and have a bunch of status effects applied.  They wouldn't know anything about a dew collector, and wouldn't be able to build one even if they did.  It's not the plastics that is the issue, it's the filters.

 

All the stuff you mention is stuff you only know because you have been playing the game a while and know what you need to do and how to do it.  Which you learned when the start of the game was easier.  New players won't have that knowledge or skill.  Not sure what your issue is with making a better starting experience for new players.  The Fun Pimps, however, need to concern themselves with making a good first impression with new players, whether you like it or not.  I posted feedback for them.  They can make the decision for themselves.      

You don't think players can figure out that they can get meat from animals?  The game starts you with a ranged weapon in the tutorial and it's not hard to hit an animal with one.  Running up to club it takes some skill to manage but if a new player has the bow, they shouldn't have any trouble figuring out how to use it.  I've pointed out that pots and grills are at traders and I doubt many players will be unable to figure out how to buy something from a trader once they have some money.  The recipes that need those will tell you that you need them if you try to cook it, so that's not an issue.  I've also already pointed out that the many debuffs have been stated to be a known issue that they are working on (per Laz Man).  That doesn't mean you won't get debuffs if you let yourself be hit multiple times but that's not something that is a problem.  New players have to learn to not get hit.  I've also pointed out that stamina really isn't a big deal to figure out (you can see my previous comments on these things in my first reply to this thread).  Figuring out a dew collector might take a little work for someone but if they are paying attention at all to what they unlock with magazines, they'll see they unlocked the dew collector and should then go see what that is and if they need it.  Crafting stuff and learning what needs to be crafted is hardly unusual for games and there doesn't have to be a lot of handholding.  New players really are stupid.  (I suppose some could be but most aren't.)

 

The fact that the game has record numbers of daily players and that number is staying up there shows that they aren't losing many players due to a difficult start to the game.  A tutorial doesn't have to explain everything in the game.  It should give you a few basics to get you started and let you learn the rest on your own.  The Journal offers additional information.  As I said earlier, the Journal should be made a bit more noticeable for new players such as having that be part of the tutorial - Press J to view your Journal.  That way players know to look there for help if needed.  But the tutorial doesn't need to handhold you and there isn't anything wrong with the game being challenging for a new player.  Games don't have to all be designed for casual gamers.

[Kiern]

5 minutes ago, Riamus said:

This is the one thing that would definitely cause problems for new players.  It is a poorly designed mechanic.  You should be able to drink with something in your hands and without standing still for a couple of seconds.  It should be far easier to do.

 

And I've also mentioned before that the starting trader shouldn't be a wilderness trader.  That is a pain even for many veteran players.

 

You don't think players can figure out that they can get meat from animals?  The game starts you with a ranged weapon in the tutorial and it's not hard to hit an animal with one.  Running up to club it takes some skill to manage but if a new player has the bow, they shouldn't have any trouble figuring out how to use it.  I've pointed out that pots and grills are at traders and I doubt many players will be unable to figure out how to buy something from a trader once they have some money.  The recipes that need those will tell you that you need them if you try to cook it, so that's not an issue.  I've also already pointed out that the many debuffs have been stated to be a known issue that they are working on (per Laz Man).  That doesn't mean you won't get debuffs if you let yourself be hit multiple times but that's not something that is a problem.  New players have to learn to not get hit.  I've also pointed out that stamina really isn't a big deal to figure out (you can see my previous comments on these things in my first reply to this thread).  Figuring out a dew collector might take a little work for someone but if they are paying attention at all to what they unlock with magazines, they'll see they unlocked the dew collector and should then go see what that is and if they need it.  Crafting stuff and learning what needs to be crafted is hardly unusual for games and there doesn't have to be a lot of handholding.  New players really are stupid.  (I suppose some could be but most aren't.)

 

The fact that the game has record numbers of daily players and that number is staying up there shows that they aren't losing many players due to a difficult start to the game.  A tutorial doesn't have to explain everything in the game.  It should give you a few basics to get you started and let you learn the rest on your own.  The Journal offers additional information.  As I said earlier, the Journal should be made a bit more noticeable for new players such as having that be part of the tutorial - Press J to view your Journal.  That way players know to look there for help if needed.  But the tutorial doesn't need to handhold you and there isn't anything wrong with the game being challenging for a new player.  Games don't have to all be designed for casual gamers.

Again, you are talking from the view point of an experienced player. And, you got to learn when the game gave you plenty of time to do that, but you think new players should have a harder time doing that.  Players "figuring stuff out" takes time.  No, I don't think that players will immediately know they can get meat from chickens and rabbits, just like I don't think they will immediately know they can use a shovel on bundles and sacks.   And it is definitely hard to hit them.  They dart away very quickly and run erratically, and the starting bow is terrible and takes a lot of practice.   

 

Look at all of the things you say they can "figure out" or "Learn".  That takes time, and much of it is not as obvious as you try to make it out.  You know it now, so it seems obvious because of that.  You can no longer see things from the perspective of a new player.  Now, much of the problems I was mentioning were directly related to the status effect issues.  You say they are fixing it.  if that is true, then a large part of the problem will be resolved. I just don't see it on the known issues list.  I mentioned that that was the biggest problem.  I only mentioned stamina as an issue because of how easily the status effects are getting applied.  If they can't move or fight back and keep getting those status effects, it is going to be extremely frustrating, and they will likely die over and over.  When you started playing, this was not an issue.    If it is fixed, then stamina is fine.

 

I'm guessing you didn't see what I was suggesting, outside of doing something about the status overload.  An extra bandage, or two, an extra water, and maybe a better food item, and maybe some meds, if the status effects were working as intended.  I can't believe you think that is a big deal.  Btw, the number of daily players is not "staying up there".  It was steadily losing players until A21 came out and people came back for it, and then the boost from the summer sale.  However, if things stay as they are, they could lose those new players they gained, and maybe get bad reviews that prevent further sales. As I pointed out in my original post, that is why I made it in the first place. The influx of new players and their first impressions based on the current state of the game.  You may be OK with them losing players, but I would guess that TFP would want the game to appeal to as many people as possible.  

 

If the status effects get fixed, that takes care of about 90% of the issue, and the rest would be minor.  I just hope they can resolve it soon.  

 

 

[Riamus]

30 minutes ago, Kiern said:

Again, you are talking from the view point of an experienced player. And, you got to learn when the game gave you plenty of time to do that, but you think new players should have a harder time doing that.  Players "figuring stuff out" takes time.  No, I don't think that players will immediately know they can get meat from chickens and rabbits, just like I don't think they will immediately know they can use a shovel on bundles and sacks.   And it is definitely hard to hit them.  They dart away very quickly and run erratically, and the starting bow is terrible and takes a lot of practice.   

 

Look at all of the things you say they can "figure out" or "Learn".  That takes time, and much of it is not as obvious as you try to make it out.  You know it now, so it seems obvious because of that.  You can no longer see things from the perspective of a new player.  Now, much of the problems I was mentioning were directly related to the status effect issues.  You say they are fixing it.  if that is true, then a large part of the problem will be resolved. I just don't see it on the known issues list.  I mentioned that that was the biggest problem.  I only mentioned stamina as an issue because of how easily the status effects are getting applied.  If they can't move or fight back and keep getting those status effects, it is going to be extremely frustrating, and they will likely die over and over.  When you started playing, this was not an issue.    If it is fixed, then stamina is fine.

 

I'm guessing you didn't see what I was suggesting, outside of doing something about the status overload.  An extra bandage, or two, an extra water, and maybe a better food item, and maybe some meds, if the status effects were working as intended.  I can't believe you think that is a big deal.  Btw, the number of daily players is not "staying up there".  It was steadily losing players until A21 came out and people came back for it, and then the boost from the summer sale.  However, if things stay as they are, they could lose those new players they gained, and maybe get bad reviews that prevent further sales. As I pointed out in my original post, that is why I made it in the first place. The influx of new players and their first impressions based on the current state of the game.  You may be OK with them losing players, but I would guess that TFP would want the game to appeal to as many people as possible.  

 

If the status effects get fixed, that takes care of about 90% of the issue, and the rest would be minor.  I just hope they can resolve it soon.  

 

 

First, being someone who develops software (even if not games), I have experience with developing things in a way that works for new users.  I have experience in understanding the difficulties new users will face with any software project because I have to design software with that in mind.  It doesn't matter what my knowledge or skill level is.  I can still see it from their point of view.  And I know that most new players are not going to be stupid and unable to get the hang of this game.  The game is hardly a difficult game on default settings.  Far more difficult games are out there and they do just fine without trying to ease new players into the game.

 

Any player who has played any game with archery or even any ranged weapons and sees something running around will know they can kill it (or at least they'll know it can probably be killed and will try to do so).  Anyone with experience with such games will have only a slight challenge figuring out the bow.  If they aren't used to using a bow, then sure, it'll take practice.  But it's not a requirement to go after chickens and rabbits anyhow.  I almost never kill those even from the first game I played.  There is plenty of meat available without killing them.  And with the increase in deer, it's not hard to do in the forest.  Deer are slow until you spook them.

 

For pallets of resources, yes, once again the new player may not know the best tool immediately.  So what?  If they use the stone axe to get the resources for a while until figuring out the shovel works better for certain palettes, it doesn't hurt anything.  And since they don't know any better, they won't even notice that it is taking too long.  It'll be a nice surprise when they figure out the faster way to get those resources.

 

As far as debuffs not being on the known issues list, that list is not a great source for what is known.  I'm going off what the devs posted on the forums that there was a problem with the debuffs that they needed to fix.  That being said, it was mentioned during experimental and I don't know if it's been fixed yet (based on what they consider fixed).  I know that I don't get an issue with debuffs anymore but I've seen people who say it's still happening, so I don't know if it's still a bug that just doesn't affect everyone.

 

I did see your suggestions for the starter items.  I have no problem with changes there as long as it's not too much.  I was referencing the idea that new players can't figure out the game and need to be walked through how to do stuff.  I've admitted that a casual gamer with little or no experience in games like this (such as people who only play games like Candy Crush) would find this game hard to learn.  But those types of players are not very likely to choose to play this game anyhow.  Anyone who has even a little experience with this type of game (or any genres with similar themes - FPS, RPG, etc.) can figure it out without having someone explain to kill an animal for food or to buy a pot to cook with if the recipe says you need a pot and you haven't found one or similar things.

 

As far as player numbers before A21, this is normal.  Once they are nearing a new alpha, players numbers drop significantly.  Many people don't want to play when a new alpha is coming and so stop playing until then.  The fact that we have record numbers now and those numbers didn't take a steep nosedive in the first few days that would suggest a lot of players trying the game and finding it too hard to play is a good indication that it's not too hard to play.  And have you looked at the reviews since A21?  Very positive.  And the ones that aren't positive aren't saying it is too hard.  They are saying they don't like the changes.  It is the veteran players complaining.  I really don't think they have anything to worry about for players.  They'll lose some, sure.  That's normal and nothing to worry about.  There will be people who try the game and decide it's not the kind of game they enjoy.  There will even be some who think the game is too hard (even if there wasn't a debuff bug) because they are not used to playing this kind of game.  Again, not anything to worry about.  In the end, these numbers will rise more for every alpha until gold.  Active numbers will always spike with each alpha and then slowly drop off as most people don't play the same game non-stop and will set it aside for other games and come back off any on to play it.  Nothing to worry about there.

 

I'd also point out that I've only been playing this game for about a year.  I remember quite well what it was like as a new player and I didn't have any trouble learning the game.  The issue for new players is the debuff bug.  Everything else is pretty clear, though as I've said, having something to make the Journal more noticeable for new players would be useful - assuming it has useful information in there as I've never read it.  They chose to do a tutorial that had to craft a bunch of stuff instead of one that tells you how to access the various important menus like many other games do in their tutorials.  I don't think it's a good way to do a tutorial and I said that many months ago but it isn't horrible.  I'd be fine with the tutorial being a more standard type of tutorial, telling the user important information and keys rather than just saying to craft a bunch of stuff.  That would be better, imo.  It should also be optional without losing the starting perk points.

 

Think back to when you started.  Did you need someone to explain how to use your perk points?  The game doesn't tell you (unless it's in the Journal, which I doubt many people ever look at).  But it's so common to gaming that it doesn't take much effort to figure it out.  Maybe you don't know the "best" perks to choose but that's entirely different from not being able to figure out the game.

 

I stand by the belief that games do not need to treat players like they are 5 years old.  Get them enough info to get started and then let them loose and let them figure out the rest by themselves.  There isn't any need to explain everything to them.  A Journal entry is enough and they just need to make it clear that the new player can read their Journal for help.  That should be part of the tutorial.  Do that and the rest is not a big deal beyond the debuff bug.