Twitch Integration now requiring Extension & Overlay - Please reconsider

[warmer]

22 hours ago, Krougal said:

However, you seem to discount that it's free advertising, and advertising is what is driving the whole thing.

You are echoing what every music venue tells a band when they don't get paid. 

 

"You guys are getting paid in free exposure."

 

Exposure doesn't equal revenue ever. I have seen 1000 McDonalds commercials in the last year and that hasn't gotten me to spend a penny on them. That aside. Quite a few people watching already own the game, so you can't assume 1000 eyes balls on a stream = 1000 potential new buyers.

[Krougal]

48 minutes ago, warmer said:

You are echoing what every music venue tells a band when they don't get paid. 

 

"You guys are getting paid in free exposure."

 

Exposure doesn't equal revenue ever. I have seen 1000 McDonalds commercials in the last year and that hasn't gotten me to spend a penny on them. That aside. Quite a few people watching already own the game, so you can't assume 1000 eyes balls on a stream = 1000 potential new buyers.

Not exactly the same thing. I mean for some "no-name" band that hasn't made it, playing in some @%$#hole dive bar, yeah sure.

Obviously you aren't going to get anybody big to go for that and certainly not in some big venue. Music on the radio would be a better example though.

 

You or I maybe won't, but other people will or McDs wouldn't spend the money for you to see 1000 commercials. I might be showing my age but back before cable, when all we had was broadcast TV, it was completely free to the end user (well you had to buy a TV obviously :P) because it was all paid for by advertising.

 

Now back to the Twitch and Youtube, because really you are just deflecting and doing "whataboutism" at this point. Where does the revenue from Twitch and Youtube come from? Advertising. So don't tell me it doesn't have a tangible cash value and that free advertising doesn't either. There are plenty of games I have tried because I went to look at say a base design tutorial, and that streamer does a lot of other games and one catches my eye and I watch and it looks fun.

 

We've already paid for a game. If you buy a saw and hammer and you use them to make furniture and sell them, should you have to pay the manufacturer a cut because you use their tools to provide some other goods or services?

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)

[warmer]

3 hours ago, Krougal said:

"Not exactly the same thing. I mean for some "no-name" band that hasn't made it, playing in some @%$#hole dive bar, yeah sure.

Obviously you aren't going to get anybody big to go for that and certainly not in some big venue. Music on the radio would be a better example though."

I've been that band for dozens of gigs, playing original music, and the venue collected entrance fees and sold drinks.

Music on the radio is a horrible example, no listener is actively making money from the listening while the song is playing. Twitch people dropping bit donations is exactly like buying a drink. Good venues pay the band a portion of drink sales because the reason the person showed up was because of the band. When you are a cover band playing someone elses songs, YOU also pay the band who wrote the songs. If you don't own intellectual property rights to the product you are using to generate income without any true transformative work being done on your end (sorry playing a game isn't transformative. it's doing exactly what it is intended to do) then you haven't added anything to it that is unavailable to anyone else who buys it. You are effectively playing a cover song in a bar and expecting to keep all the money for using someone elses work.

 

3 hours ago, Krougal said:

Now back to the Twitch and Youtube, because really you are just deflecting and doing "whataboutism" at this point. Where does the revenue from Twitch and Youtube come from? Advertising. So don't tell me it doesn't have a tangible cash value and that free advertising doesn't either. There are plenty of games I have tried because I went to look at say a base design tutorial, and that streamer does a lot of other games and one catches my eye and I watch and it looks fun.

 

We've already paid for a game. If you buy a saw and hammer and you use them to make furniture and sell them, should you have to pay the manufacturer a cut because you use their tools to provide some other goods or services?

 

The majority of People show up because of the game you are playing. NOT simply because of who you are. If you are interested in a game you search for it and watch. They showed up for the game. Did they show up for you? Maybe a little, but really it's the game. As a streamer you should be paying royalties to the creator of the reason they showed up in the first place.

I've been on both side of this, as a band getting paid in exposure and as someone who lived with a full time streamer for years. They always picked what game was hot, because the wrong game doesn't get you eyeballs, and no eyeballs means no twitch partner, and that equals no revenue. The revenue comes from advertising yes, but the majority comes from subs and bit donations. That equals WAY more than advertising. Advertising is a small amount in comparison. You watch 1 add at when you launch a stream. I saw my old roomate make $100's in subs and bit donations in 4-5 hours all the time. You also have to think about all that traffic cost. That is a ton of internet traffic and someone has to pay for it. The advertising doesn't even begin to.

 

If you actually modded something, that the devs added, I think you should absolutely get paid, but playing a game, which anyone can do doesn't hold any value like a skilled trade of a laborer does. Anyone can play 7 days to die with a PC and $20. VERY few people can walk into home depot and buy a few tools, build a piece of furniture of ACTUAL quality and convince someone to buy it from them. I'd say the ratio is likely 100 7d2d players to 1 furniture maker and that's being generous. 

Edited August 19, 2023 by warmer (see edit history)

[Crashtian]

12 minutes ago, warmer said:

"The majority of People show up because of the game you are playing. NOT simply because of who you are."
Citation needed
 

 

[warmer]

16 minutes ago, Crashtian said:

"The majority of People show up because of the game you are playing. NOT simply because of who you are."
Citation needed

apparently you haven't noticed how streamers tend to stick to a few games and rarely deviate long before they come back. It's pretty obvious. If they didn't the average views on random games would be the same, but it 100% isn't. Why did everyone stream Baldur's Gate 3 when it got released? Because they knew that is what people wanted to see. Streaming is a business.

If these points aren't obvious to anyone, all I can say is I have watched it first hand and know a handful of streamers that make their living this way. They ALL pick what gets the clicks. There isn't one exception to this. You find your niche and your core audience and you play Resident Evil 2 for the 100th time because the last 10x you did you made a $250 in 6hrs. lol

That's how it works folks.

Edited August 19, 2023 by warmer (see edit history)

[theFlu]

37 minutes ago, warmer said:

apparently you haven't noticed how streamers tend to stick to a few games and rarely deviate long before they come back.

It's a combination at the very least; if I were to make a 7dtd vid, I wouldn't pull in the numbers JaWoodle is getting. I don't have an audience. People are pretty devoted to the specific random streamers, not just because it's convenient, but because they like the guy. If the main attraction was just the game, there would be plenty people playing it without mics or face-cams, but that's really rare.

[warmer]

23 hours ago, theFlu said:

It's a combination at the very least; if I were to make a 7dtd vid, I wouldn't pull in the numbers JaWoodle is getting. I don't have an audience. People are pretty devoted to the specific random streamers, not just because it's convenient, but because they like the guy. 

You forgot how the search results work. The highest subs/views show at the top of the list.

 

Who ever looks at the second page of the results?

 

I agree on devotion. However, that only applies to when they are playing what you are looking for.

 

If you are looking for a specific game you choose someone playing, that someone is almost always the highest sub/viewer count.

[Crashtian]

4 hours ago, warmer said:

You forgot how the search results work. The highest subs/views show at the top of the list.

 

Who ever looks at the second page of the results?

 

I agree on devotion. However, that only applies to when they are playing what you are looking for.

 

If you are looking for a specific game you choose someone playing, that someone is almost always the highest sub/viewer count.

You live on a very small section of twitch and not even the most popular section of it. Just chatting blows the gaming community out of the window because most people are after the streamer, not the game.

Single game streamers have an easier time maintaining a fan base, but variety streamers with wicked personalities blow past most single game streamers.

[theFlu]

10 hours ago, warmer said:

You forgot how the search results work. The highest subs/views show at the top of the list.

Honestly, I couldn't forget it, I've never used it - on twitch at least; I've never gone in to search for something. I've ran into some streamers on youtube and such, and ended up looking for their specific channel; from there I've watched a some algorithm suggestions. I can't remember seeing anyone streaming just the game, without adding their own comms and thus personality on it. It's a whole lot easier too without mics and cams, there would be at least one guy with a huge audience like that for every game if it wasn't about the streamer. "just chatting" is a thing, is "just playing"?

 

"If you're looking for a specific game", yeah, I don't think I ever have.. I've punched "7dtd" into youtube search a couple times lately, to easier find the people I've followed after a browser reset. That's probably a bit of a problem caused by the search; it can't really be used to find "things you might like", so you'll have to use game titles you know of for the search. I can't remember exactly how I got to following the people I do, but early on it was a lot about learning the mechanics of the game, looking for adv tutorials and such, and then "streamer weekend" -stuff got me into following couple guys more regularly. And the YT front page, of course.

[Krougal]

9 hours ago, Crashtian said:

You live on a very small section of twitch and not even the most popular section of it. Just chatting blows the gaming community out of the window because most people are after the streamer, not the game.

Single game streamers have an easier time maintaining a fan base, but variety streamers with wicked personalities blow past most single game streamers.

Because face it, many people like games, but we all love tits!

Except the drone (she is jealous of Jen's tits)

[zztong]

14 hours ago, warmer said:

You forgot how the search results work. The highest subs/views show at the top of the list.

Who ever looks at the second page of the results?

 

Me, actually. I like streams with few people. It's easier to chat with the streamer.

 

I'm finding I don't really want to watch them play. I know the game. I want to be social within the context of the game. Twitch integration was neat for a while, but I can take or leave it now. That too seems better if there's just a couple of people and if it costs nothing. I'm not paying real money for it. The ability to occasionally interject a little content is neat. Rampant sessions of clobbering the streamer is kind of dull, almost as bad as watching somebody manage their base's inventory all game night.