Frank comments about Alpha 21 (mainly empty bottles and water)

[IAMtraveler]

(I apologize if my English is not good enough for you, and I apologize if my language is rude)

 

Hello, I am new to the game and have been playing for about 3-4 days. I spend my days killing zombies and getting killed. I started watching the play videos and thought it looked fun. I am getting a very interesting experience as expected. Thank you very much.

However, there is one thing that feels strange to me as I play Alpha 21. It is that the main character is in between life and death and does not use (throw away?) an empty bottle that could be used to drink water. It is an action. Isn't that unrealistic? I think so.

The only way to get water in the current environment is to collect water with a dew purifier or filter the waste water available from the toilet. (I'll spare you the other drinks in this article.) I felt it was unrealistic for me to have a protagonist who desperately searches for sewage water from the toilet when a natural water source is right in front of him. Also, it seems strange to me that in such an established social civilization, there are no empty bottles, which are essential for life. (In addition, the protagonist does not even think of utilizing them.)

I understand that the game has to be fun, challenging, and interesting, and that this increased difficulty level is necessary to make it so. However, it would be a bit unfortunate if, as a result of changing the system for the sake of difficulty and fun, the protagonist, who craves to live, has to search for sewage in the toilet.

 

I know this is an alternative that has already been considered, but could the following method be used to create empty bottles while adding more difficulty to the game? (Sorry for the layman's opinion.)

⑴     The main character will be more thirsty. (It seems that the average adult male drinks about 2.5 liters of water per day. That would be about 5 empty bottles or more?)

⑵     Depending on the biome (and temperature), there will be a difference in thirst. (apologies if this is already in place in your system)

⑶     The empty bottles will break with a certain probability. (Would it be interesting if skills could make them last longer?)

If these are difficult to introduce, "a clear reason why natural water sources cannot be utilized and why atmospheric moisture or toilet waste water can be utilized" would be more convincing.

 

I am just starting out and may seem like a baby to those of you who have been playing this game for years. I sincerely look forward to seeing how you reach something more interesting, more exciting, and more realistic in a game that I found very interesting, even though I am not a fan of zombies or gunfire. Good luck!

 

From a dear new citizen of White River

[meganoth]

The main character does not throw away jars. He simply has always enough jars and containers so that he always can store water he finds.

Just like he always has access to containers for gasoline. Just like he always can store food somewhere where it doesn't simply get smashed.

 

But those containers are not simulated or shown. Just like it isn't shown when you use the bathroom, or crafting isn't shown except as a timer that ticks down.

 

The water from lakes is viewed as so toxic that the character won't take any of it. Except he might drink it in an emergency. This part is surely not realistic and can't really be explained fully, just like the existence of zombies. You just have to accept it. The game is not a simulation, fun trumps realism.

 

[Riamus]

The problem with jars is that no matter what you do with them, they make is far too easy to get water.  You can basically have an unlimited supply of water on day 1 with even just a few jars and a nearby water source.  Getting rid of jars is a good thing, imo.  However, the lack of being able to transport water from a water source does feel wrong.  But if you don't dwell on that, it really isn't a big deal.  Getting rid of jars was a big part of the change.  It wasn't just to make water more scarce.  They wanted to get rid of the jars.  So there is really no chance that any suggestion involving adding jars back will be considered.  They may consider suggestions to improve water that does not include jars, though.

[RhinoW]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

The main character does not throw away jars. He simply has always enough jars and containers so that he always can store water he finds.

Just like he always has access to containers for gasoline. Just like he always can store food somewhere where it doesn't simply get smashed.

 

But those containers are not simulated or shown. Just like it isn't shown when you use the bathroom, or crafting isn't shown except as a timer that ticks down.

 

The water from lakes is viewed as so toxic that the character won't take any of it. Except he might drink it in an emergency. This part is surely not realistic and can't really be explained fully, just like the existence of zombies. You just have to accept it. The game is not a simulation, fun trumps realism.

 

Well, before it was more fun than it is now, as I actually used jars to get water rather than have it wait for me at base. The new system only made water an issue the first 2 days, and now it's back to what it was previously, minus the duct tape spam.

 

I think people are completely forgetting what made water broken in the first place.

 

1 - You could have stacks beyond 100 for murky water and empty jars, when it should've been way way lower

2 - You could right click a SINGLE water block with the 100s of empty jar, and get 100s of murky water, when it should've been 1:1 not 1:current held amount.

 

To fix water abundance, and keep the game realistic AND fun, all TFP had to do was:

 

1. Make the stacks of murky water and empty jars 10.

2. Make each right click on a water source fill only 1-2 jars

3. Remove loot from toilets and turn them into possible refill stations (flush toilet container has a chance of containing water)

4. Make jars, empty or filled, rare.

5. Bring back something similar to the cans, where you could only have stacks of 1, but they are easy to craft until you have a forge to make your own glass jars.

 

 

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, RhinoW said:

Well, before it was more fun than it is now, as I actually used jars to get water rather than have it wait for me at base. The new system only made water an issue the first 2 days, and now it's back to what it was previously, minus the duct tape spam.

 

You are not thinking about the many ways this game is played. In our co-op game water was and is an issue, at the local trader we could only buy 3 filters. Enough to make sure, we never needed to drink from a lake, but not enough for our glue production at the same time. So we still bought water from the trader and finally went to a second trader to buy more collectors.

 

In my SP game I just started a new base somewhere else and since I haven't found time to go back I actually bought new filters. At the moment I am short on glue again.

 

4 hours ago, RhinoW said:

 

I think people are completely forgetting what made water broken in the first place.

 

1 - You could have stacks beyond 100 for murky water and empty jars, when it should've been way way lower

2 - You could right click a SINGLE water block with the 100s of empty jar, and get 100s of murky water, when it should've been 1:1 not 1:current held amount.

 

I you think THAT would be fun, then we have very different opinions about fun. Making stacks small so everyone has to do click-marathons in their inventory is a game mechanic for masochists.

 

4 hours ago, RhinoW said:

 

To fix water abundance, and keep the game realistic AND fun, all TFP had to do was:

 

1. Make the stacks of murky water and empty jars 10.

2. Make each right click on a water source fill only 1-2 jars

4 hours ago, RhinoW said:

3. Remove loot from toilets and turn them into possible refill stations (flush toilet container has a chance of containing water)

4. Make jars, empty or filled, rare.

5. Bring back something similar to the cans, where you could only have stacks of 1, but they are easy to craft until you have a forge to make your own glass jars.

 

 

 

And you probably would disallow filling the jars from open water like lakes, right? If not, all that would be easily circumvented.

 

But without getting water from lakes it probably would work. Though TFP also wanted to remove jars. So they went with a different solution

 

[AtomicUs5000]

19 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I you think THAT would be fun, then we have very different opinions about fun. Making stacks small so everyone has to do click-marathons in their inventory is a game mechanic for masochists.

 
The fun comes from having to do this initially until you progress and come up with a better solution (like most things in games with a character that progresses)

[Evil_Geoff]

Never used cans for water, always collected them for smelting down later.

If players aren't crafting them or collecting them, where do the jars that show up in the dew collectors come from?  Do they just magically appear?

If lake water is so toxic that it can't be collected and purified, it should be a "very-short-time-to-death" if consumed unfiltered, no saving or at least a VERY rare/expensive cure.  Otherwise?  You build a freaking STILL and make DISTILLED water. 

Oh, and while I'm thinking about stills... Those at least would have a logical explanation for generating heat, unlike the dew collectors that have no moving parts, don't use fire, don't use electricity...

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Evil_Geoff
Spelling/grammar edits (see edit history)

[RhinoW]

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

You are not thinking about the many ways this game is played. In our co-op game water was and is an issue, at the local trader we could only buy 3 filters. Enough to make sure, we never needed to drink from a lake, but not enough for our glue production at the same time. So we still bought water from the trader and finally went to a second trader to buy more collectors.

 

In my SP game I just started a new base somewhere else and since I haven't found time to go back I actually bought new filters. At the moment I am short on glue again.

 

 

 

I do think about the different ways the game is played, and all of them require you to buy water filters from the trader, to create a machine that will give you small amounts of water overtime, requiring you to get more filters to have a sustainable income.

 

And yes, like I said, the only problem now, is glue, not really grasping for water to survive. This new system simply delays the water abundance and decreases it to relatively "normal" levels. But it's nothing that the older system couldn't do with tweaks.

 

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

I you think THAT would be fun, then we have very different opinions about fun. Making stacks small so everyone has to do click-marathons in their inventory is a game mechanic for masochists.

I don't see how it would be any different than what it is now. You rarely find more than 10 murky water on your expeditions, at least I rarely do. And why would a stack of 10 be a click marathon? So I guess making yucca juice or coffee is a click marathon because water is made in stacks of 10? It doesn't add up.

 

And yes it would be more fun, because before I actually had a reason to make a bucket (multiple actually) and collect water.

 

Previously:

- Recycle jars

- 1. Find refillable stations or snow

- 2. Create refillable stations next to your base by crafting a bucket and getting water

- Refill jars

- Boil water

 

Now:

- Do quests to get dukes, as you would anyways

- Spend those dukes asap to get a water filter

- Make dew collector

- Wait

- Ocasionally boil the murky water you find during your expeditions

 

6 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

And you probably would disallow filling the jars from open water like lakes, right? If not, all that would be easily circumvented.

 

But without getting water from lakes it probably would work. Though TFP also wanted to remove jars. So they went with a different solution

 

I wouldn't, that's the main reason why finding a lake was a godsent before. That's the whole point of finding a lake. 

 

And it's not "easily circumvented", you have to find a lake first, and either craft buckets and bring some water blocks with you, or use up gas to do water refill trips.

 

If you think lakes would be an issue, simply add another tier of contamination to the water, that would require more than boiling. Remember the water purification tablets? I member. Or straight up make that a requirement to purify water, making it harder, but still a possibility.

 

There are soo many ways to get the best out of both worlds, so many ways to balance the water, instead of adding what's essentially a city simulator wait-to-get-resource mechanic.

 

All in all, I'm not displeased with this update, I'm completely neutral about it, but you can't deny it's a dumbed down version of a survival mechanic. The issue should be getting drinkable water, not getting murky water. And right now, they're equally as easy to get, by how simple it is to boil it. Murky water is the equivalent to a seed atm, but way faster to get the intended resource.

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, RhinoW said:

 

I do think about the different ways the game is played, and all of them require you to buy water filters from the trader, to create a machine that will give you small amounts of water overtime, requiring you to get more filters to have a sustainable income.

 

I just was going by your statement that the water problem is gone in 2 days. And since glue AND food production all need water they are part of the problem in my opinion and that means the water problem is not gone in 2 days.

 

7 hours ago, RhinoW said:

 

And yes, like I said, the only problem now, is glue, not really grasping for water to survive. This new system simply delays the water abundance and decreases it to relatively "normal" levels. But it's nothing that the older system couldn't do with tweaks.

 

I don't see how it would be any different than what it is now. You rarely find more than 10 murky water on your expeditions, at least I rarely do. And why would a stack of 10 be a click marathon? So I guess making yucca juice or coffee is a click marathon because water is made in stacks of 10? It doesn't add up.

 

And yes it would be more fun, because before I actually had a reason to make a bucket (multiple actually) and collect water.

 

Previously:

- Recycle jars

- 1. Find refillable stations or snow

- 2. Create refillable stations next to your base by crafting a bucket and getting water

- Refill jars

- Boil water

 

Now:

- Do quests to get dukes, as you would anyways

- Spend those dukes asap to get a water filter

- Make dew collector

- Wait

- Ocasionally boil the murky water you find during your expeditions

 

I wouldn't, that's the main reason why finding a lake was a godsent before. That's the whole point of finding a lake. 

 

And it's not "easily circumvented", you have to find a lake first, and either craft buckets and bring some water blocks with you, or use up gas to do water refill trips.

 

It is. There are small water sources in cities, not big lakes, but pools or canals. Just put your POI near one close to the trader, set up the fireplace directly beside it and no matter how few jars you have you have endless water to craft drinking water and glue.

 

Whether that would be the solution many players would take? I don't know. And maybe water sources in towns and cities could also be removed again, not sure how many there are.  Just saying that with the current game setup players could easily have as much water as they want, but with inventory grind as the solution.

 

7 hours ago, RhinoW said:

 

If you think lakes would be an issue, simply add another tier of contamination to the water, that would require more than boiling. Remember the water purification tablets? I member. Or straight up make that a requirement to purify water, making it harder, but still a possibility.

 

There are soo many ways to get the best out of both worlds, so many ways to balance the water, instead of adding what's essentially a city simulator wait-to-get-resource mechanic.

 

I agree that the trader is not a beautiful method for creating a slowly increasing and reliable water production (I assume reliable and slowly increasing were reasons for choosing the trader)

 

But on solutions in general: On the wall of my room hangs a quote from H.L. Mencken: "For every complex problem, there is a simple, easy-to-understand wrong answer."

 

There have been so many "easy" solutions for water been proposed, without any test play with an implementation I don't take it at face value that they work. Especially when some solve imagined problems instead of what TFP wanted to fix. Or were obviously not accomplishing what they set out to do. 

 

Your proposed solution has a problem as well. We have to ignore the requirement to remove water jars from the game. Yes, it probably would be better in a few categories, like inernal consistency. But they wanted a solution without water jars.

 

7 hours ago, RhinoW said:

 

All in all, I'm not displeased with this update, I'm completely neutral about it, but you can't deny it's a dumbed down version of a survival mechanic. The issue should be getting drinkable water, not getting murky water. And right now, they're equally as easy to get, by how simple it is to boil it. Murky water is the equivalent to a seed atm, but way faster to get the intended resource.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)