Bugged or intended?

[BFT2020]

4 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I'm looking at the xml:s now, it seems the antibiotics are all behind one of the

loot_prob_template="veryLow"

-type odds.. I didn't think those are scaled by levels, loot levels or otherwise? Am I missing something? No hooks this time, just a request for help: @BFT2020

Yes

 

Using the medicine cabinet as an example, each time you loot it, there are 3 loot groups and it is set to count ="all" so chance to grab an item from each group.

 

• Guaranteed to get an item from the common medical group which has a low (0.2) chance of picking honey.
• There is a low chance (0.2) of picking from the uncommon medical group, which has a veryLow (0.05) chance of getting the herbal antibiotics
• There is a veryLow (0.05) chance of picking from the rare medical group, which has a veryLow (0.05) chance of getting the blue/white pill. 

These chances are the same with a player on Day 1 vs a player on Day 100.

 

Note, 0.05 doesn't mean 5% chance based on how probability is calculated in the game.  In the rare group, there are 4 items with the antibiotic the only one with a probability chance listed.  That means the other 3 have a probability of 1 each so the total for that group is 3.05.  That means the probability of the antibiotic is 0.05/3.05 or 1.6% chance.  The rare group itself only has a 5% chance of being picked from.

 

And in case someone is wondering, you only have a 3.2% chance of getting honey based on the number of items inside the common medical group

[theFlu]

2 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

These chances are the same with a player on Day 1 vs a player on Day 100.

Thank you!

[Abusimplea]

9 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

Honey actually has anti-microbial properties.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3609166/

Okay, so it actually can be used to treat wounds right after the infectious bite?

Any microbiologists here who know how to interpret this study?

[theFlu]

20 minutes ago, Abusimplea said:

Okay, so it actually can be used to treat wounds right after the infectious bite?

Any microbiologists here who know how to interpret this study?

Not a microbiologist, but I can read a study to an extent; the one linked seems to be more of a discussion piece than a study of anything in particular, going through the citations would be a bit of an endeavor. I'm not making claims of its correctness, but I've been lead to believe that honey indeed has anti-microbial properties.

 

But even high concentrations of sugar have the same effect:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32357252/

For a simple example, people have made jellies for preservation, not just to add sweetness to the berries. They're pretty shelf-stable when done right.

 

EDIT: geez, typos

Edited July 20, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Abusimplea]

19 minutes ago, theFlu said:

But even high concentrations of sugar have the same effect:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32357252/

For a simple example, people have made jellies for preservation, not just to add sweetness to the berries. They're pretty shelf-stable when done right.

Yeah, sure - but the zombie infection is supposed to be an internal affair - eating lots of sugar will probably not kill it inside a human body.

[theFlu]

3 minutes ago, Abusimplea said:

eating lots of sugar will probably not kill it inside a human body.

Ye, no, the concentrations required would outright kill a human if attempted internally. Applied on a wound it might offer some similar benefits, though. But neither is going to realistically stop a zombie infection, if they did, there'd be no apocalypse ...

[doughphunghus]

42 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Not a microbiologist, but I can read a study to an extent; the one linked seems to be more of a discussion piece than a study of anything in particular, going through the citations would be a bit of an endeavor. I'm not making claims of its correctness, but I've been lead to believe that honey indeed has anti-microbial properties.

 

But even high concentrations of sugar have the same effect:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32357252/

For a simple example, people have made jellies for preservation, not just to add sweetness to the berries. They're pretty shelf-stable when done right.

 

EDIT: geez, typos

Also not a Microbiologist, but have science background, took several microbiology courses years ago, and got out with a biochem degree (unused)...so i skimmed the paper. My interpretation may not be perfect/correct!

Yeah, this looks like a discussion piece, citing other sources, basically saying "this honey to treat infections thing looks promising to study"

 

 Everything after the "Mechanism of antibacterial activity" is a good (long) summary. Basically yeah: its the high sugar content, but also breakdown of honey into hydrogen peroxide (which not all honey does). And actually other things are brought up (enzymes, etc) that either "have been studied" or "maybe theres more unknowns here to study". They make a point to indicate that "medicinal" honey and other types of hones vs "bought off the shelf" honey have wildly varying degrees of bacterial fighting "power".  Moat of the "usage" is claimed ti be for "surface infections" (skin or deeper cuts/surgical) but there is some discussion about claims/papers written about internal infections of the GI tract being treatable (or seems to speed up healing).

 

so: yeah, a bite is a surface wound (though it may be deep and maybe honeys effects could not get to the deep part) and honey applied to the bite/surface could either help treat *some* infectious agents just by being concentrated sugar, but also via other things like hydrogen peroxide generation (if the proper honey is used) or also "other compounds/things we don't know exactly what they are or how they work yet". In game the honey is drunk...but that may still offer some protection though it seems thats still up for some debate as to how effective it is or "what all in the body is targeted or is affected" by drinking honey.

 

also: it also seems to be a "hey, lets argue its worth studying what is specifically in honey (different honeys) more as this might lead to finding a new and cheap non-antibiotic (non classic known/used antibiotics) way to treat infections that may help keep down needing to use antibiotics and therefore, not generating antibiotic resistant bacteria risks when we use it"

Edited July 20, 2023 by doughphunghus (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, Abusimplea said:

Okay, so it actually can be used to treat wounds right after the infectious bite?

Any microbiologists here who know how to interpret this study?

To be fair, that was just the first link, I didn't really read it, just skimmed a bit.  I kind of thought it was common knowledge that honey has anti-microbial properties.

 

Anyway, sure, the way that honey is used in the game makes little or no sense, but it's just an abstraction as far as I'm concerned.

[Abusimplea]

47 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

To be fair, that was just the first link, I didn't really read it, just skimmed a bit.  I kind of thought it was common knowledge that honey has anti-microbial properties.

 

Anyway, sure, the way that honey is used in the game makes little or no sense, but it's just an abstraction as far as I'm concerned.

It indeed is common knowledge that sugar is a preservative. But it is also common knowledge that you can't cure an infection by just eating sugar.

 

While using honey internally still looks pretty absurd to me, applying it generously on a fresh zombie wound seems to not be as far off as i thought. I would now argue for lowering the healing percentage to around 1% though - still enough when applied right after the hit but definitely not feasible for curing an infection after some hours.

[theFlu]

12 minutes ago, Abusimplea said:

I would now argue for lowering the healing percentage to around 1% though

I'd be fine with that, wouldn't really change the practicality that much. If you have it, you have it, if not, pills will be required. Might also remove the +5 Food.

 

Then again, it's a game, I'm also fine having it as is ... it's not the least realistic aspect of the game

 

1 hour ago, doughphunghus said:

so i skimmed the paper.

Thanks for bothering to spell it out

[Riamus]

My guess is they choose to use it based on honey being considered a cure all in the past and still is known to have curative properties, just not a cure all.  And I'm referring to ingestion in that.  Still, it isn't realistic to cure a zombie bite infection but it is a game so I don't mind.  But I do agree that there ways to cure it is odd.  I like the free option of honey for early game and a better version for later that is hard to find but easy to craft one you have to recipe.  No real need for herbals.

[doughphunghus]

40 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Thanks for bothering to spell it out

Ha  yeah i wrote a lot more than i thought i did once i finished. it was kinda interesting topic though. I thought honey was basically just a preservative (sugar) with "pollen and bee crap in it" that gave it nutrition and flavor. I didnt know it actually had more "antibiotic powers" in it.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Abusimplea said:

I don't think, the early, mid and late game distinction makes sense for infection treatments as you normally treat infections as soon as you can anyways - and later on, you can treat them faster as you have medicine stockpiled in your base. Later in the game you also got good armor and stockpiles of vitamins - so the risk of infection goes down significantly too.

 

This game doesn't need a whopping three items that can cure infections. We don't have three versions of concussion threatment either (we have one - the painkiller).

Just let noobs find herbal antibiotics in medicine cabinets early on. And the 10% cure amount is actually fine. 5% just isn't enough when you start hunting for the cure after being infected. Dealing with early infections shouldn't be a matter of having absurdly good luck or committing suicide. There should be a good chance that you can fully treat it with the first or second treatment you find. Harvesting twenty stumps to treat an infection just isn't fun (been there, done that).

 

Honey should be what it actually is for everyone who never played 7D2D before: A high-calories ingredient for the perfect breakfast or sweet dishes and beverages. Also, how about finding honey in the most unexpected place imaginable: Kitchen cabinets.

 

I agree there really is no use for antibiotics. The 5% of honey mixed with the probability to find them seems to be a good balance though for making it a race against time. A single honey often doesn't cure you, it just gives you the necessary delay to (maybe, probably) find another honey. And that might cure you or you didn't get it in time and it is again delaying it and the race continues.

 

The big problem with this is that the race itself is frightfully boring (you hit the nail with that), you have to run around empty forests and hit tree stumps. I think it would be a lot more fun (besides being more logical) if you needed to find medical POIs and loot them for the chance to find whatever gives you the 5% of either cure or delay.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Abusimplea]

20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I agree there really is no use for antibiotics. The 5% of honey mixed with the probability to find them seems to be a good balance though for making it a race against time. A single honey often doesn't cure you, it just gives you the necessary delay to (maybe, probably) find another honey. And that might cure you or you didn't get it in time and it is again delaying it and the race continues.

 

The big problem with this is that the race itself is frightfully boring (you hit the nail with that), you have to run around empty forests and hit tree stumps. I think it would be a lot more fun (besides being more logical) if you needed to find medical POIs and loot them for the chance to find whatever gives you the 5% of either cure or delay.

Yeah, looting POIs is definitely orders of magnitude better than farming tree stumps.

As i wrote, kitchens would be where i would expect honey to be. And i am almost absolutely certain that your honey (if you have any) is in your kitchen. I know persons storing honey in the kitchen (some are of them are stupid and store it in the fridge). I know no person who would even think about storing honey in a medicine cabinet. It makes no sense and isn't even a common trope like the toilet gun.

 

Limiting honey to immidiate treatment of fresh wounds (because it only treats a miniscule amount of infection percentage) would make antibiotics a useful thing to have. And for them being only to be found in medical POIs or medicine cabinets makes a lot of sense.

And if honey is special because it is useless for curing advanced infections, having a prepocalypse drug that can only belooted and a herbal version that is weaker and can only be crafted would make sense. But the art for the herbal one is just a @%$# painkiller - so maybe, just dropping it and keeping the full version craftable makes even more sense.

 

In any case, the current state of the randomness in this game means that you can indeed farm stumps for multiple days without finding any honey. It is a pretty unlikely thing to happen - but it happened to me, so i know for sure that it is possible.

So maybe, they should tame that (definitely not unfair but also definitely feeling like it is pretty damn unfair at times) randomness to avoid overly punishing streaks of bad (or good) luck.

[Riamus]

I don't really have a problem with them being in tree stumps.  You can find honey in bee hives on tree stumps and in trees, so it isn't even unrealistic.  Yes, it might not be the most fun thing to look for them in stumps but at the same time, you have a good chance of finding one quickly.  If you have it only in kitchens, the time to go around abd loot houses, even if you just loot kitchens and leave is going to be longer.  You could compensate by making honey drop more often but I don't think we want to see people with dozens of stacks of honey just because the loot chance is raised and they loot kitchens (or any cabinets)  regularly.  Even leaving the drop rate as it is and then putting it in cabinets will cause a huge increase in looted honey.  That doesn't mean it can't be balanced, though.

[Abusimplea]

18 hours ago, Riamus said:

You could compensate by making honey drop more often but I don't think we want to see people with dozens of stacks of honey just because the loot chance is raised and they loot kitchens (or any cabinets)  regularly.

Honey already is a food item. People won't just bunker it - they would eat the excess.

And currently the cakes and pies don't have sugar as ingredient - honey would fit perfectly.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Abusimplea said:

Honey already is a food item. People won't just bunker it - they would eat the excess.

And currently the cakes and pies don't have sugar as ingredient - honey would fit perfectly.

If used as an ingredient in cooked food, that would work well. Though it would probably be better to have it as an ingredient in better food than just called and pies.  At least for me, I'm past those so quickly that I almost never even bother making them unless I'm trying to get rid of pumpkins or blueberries.  Even so, it would help.

 

But as just food to eat without also being an ingredient... I think it would stack up in storage.  I don't many people are eating pears and such after they are able to keep up with cooking good food.  So it would be the same for honey.

[Abusimplea]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

If used as an ingredient in cooked food, that would work well. Though it would probably be better to have it as an ingredient in better food than just called and pies.  At least for me, I'm past those so quickly that I almost never even bother making them unless I'm trying to get rid of pumpkins or blueberries.  Even so, it would help.

 

But as just food to eat without also being an ingredient... I think it would stack up in storage.  I don't many people are eating pears and such after they are able to keep up with cooking good food.  So it would be the same for honey.

Cakes and pies are the natural choice because they are already in the game and currently lack the main sugar ingredient for unknown reasons. But there are more recipes with honey - you can even improve your BBQ with it or make a dessert from eggs and honey.

The existing recipes could also get a boost when the honey ingredient is added to them. It is sad that there is a "best" food item in this game. There really shouldn't be. I wish, that they bring a modernized version of wellness back (no punishment spiral, humble bonuses only).

I am not a chef and never cook myself in the meatspace. But you can do tons of dishes with basically any ingredient. There definitely is no lack of potential here and we might see mods turning 7D2D into a cooking simulator after it finally released.

 

Yes, i do eat lesser foods even when having a pile of spaghetti. If i loot some grilled meat, i just eat it instead of throwing it away. Or i put it for very cheap into my shop (i play solo on PvE servers), so noobs can eat it. After i got my farm going there just is no point in hoarding lesser foods in a box as i will never need it.

[Rotor]

On 6/21/2023 at 3:41 PM, Jay_K said:

Me and my partner are testing out the new Alpha 21 update (which is amazing btw) but we have come across an issue. We are now half way thru day 4 so 4 hours in and got infected. We have now looted multiple pop n pills and med cabinets but not found a single Antibiotic and not enough honey to cure infection. Crafting antibiotics takes 60 med books so its not like you can do that early game.
Is this intended, a bug or are we getting just very very unlucky?

 

RnGeezus be with you!

 

Let us pray.

 

Or go find a wilderness PoI, like the hunt camps.  The stumps around it and guaranteed honey for the most part.

[Riamus]

5 hours ago, Rotor said:

Or go find a wilderness PoI, like the hunt camps.  The stumps around it and guaranteed honey for the most part.

In case you aren't yet aware, A21 no longer gives you bonus to honey in stumps when the stumps are on a POI.  It's the same chance no matter where the stump is located.  The only benefit from POI stumps is that there are often multiple stumps in a small area.  Honey Bee has something like 6 of them on the POI, though that was is in town.  Journeys End is in the wilderness and has a bunch as well.

[Rotor]

No, not really aware, but In my first play through blew by one on the way to town on the second day, and BAM!

 

RnGeezus be with me, on that one, I guess.