A21 is great, but did not fix some important issues like solo vs. multiplayer. Give your suggestions.

[tdevine]

I will edit this post as I find or think of more important issues that may make the game better.  Hopefully some of you will join in with some great ideas.

 

 

1.  There has always been a bad balancing factor between playing solo or multiplayer.   This game's crafting is completely balanced for a solo player, but are not adjusted for multiplayer.  This means that if 3-4 players organize their crafting points, they could be getting and making end game items in less than the first week.  It may be worse now, as you can give away your magazines for the right teammate to read.  I suggest making it an OPTION so that ONLY the player that looted the magazine can read or use it.  This way, the crafting progression can remain balanced for everyone and the team in question, so the game keeps its challenge.  And I said OPTION, so players that do not want this don't have to use it.

 

2.  PLEASE, for the love of god, remove the main loot off the roofs, especially tier 4s and 5s.  I will use the T5 shotgun factory and hospital as an example.  TFP have spent countless hours making these grand buildings with many zombies, rooms, furnishings, atmosphere, etc....   Why would you at TFP think it is reasonable to put the main loot on the roof of these POIs?  You can skip 95% of each POI and go right to the main loot.  Not "cheesing" is not an excuse for bad choices or design.  Put the loot either together, or broken up, IN the POIs, making the player search for and fight for it.  A much, much, more interesting visit to the large POIs.

Edited June 13, 2023 by tdevine (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

I don’t see how having loot on the roof is any different than having a loot room. Once you’ve done a POI enough, you know the most efficient route to the loot room. Ultimately, it’s up to the players to police themselves. Besides, there’s a substantial difference between looting early game and looting end game.  Early game, I’m happy to go through entire buildings because I need everything.  Late game, I’m on a targeted hunt and not interested in clearing out entire buildings. 
 

If everyone in a group takes the magazine quest reward for every quest and then  doles the books out efficiently, I guess it might be possible to get to a high crafting level in the first week. Again, I think it’s up to the group. If a group wants to rush progression they are going to find a way to do no matter what TFP does.

[Scyris]

I'd argue against the skills being balanced for single player. We went from 1 level gate in a16.4 to 5 level gates in a17+ in the form of stats, so tfp just made the problem worse. Its even worse in A21 now as sex t-rex is no longer in str, so now if you want stam cost reductions you have to waste perk points in stats you do not want. I'd rather it be put back into str. but also part of the weapon lines themselves, so you can either take the general sex t-rex perk that covers all or use the specific one for your weapon type. So annoying using a wrench now because it just drains stamina so fast without sex t-rex and I hate it.

 

TFP I been noticing keeps removing more and more choice from the player with each update.

[Exxodous]

8 minutes ago, Scyris said:

I'd argue against the skills being balanced for single player. We went from 1 level gate in a16.4 to 5 level gates in a17+ in the form of stats, so tfp just made the problem worse. Its even worse in A21 now as sex t-rex is no longer in str, so now if you want stam cost reductions you have to waste perk points in stats you do not want. I'd rather it be put back into str. but also part of the weapon lines themselves, so you can either take the general sex t-rex perk that covers all or use the specific one for your weapon type. So annoying using a wrench now because it just drains stamina so fast without sex t-rex and I hate it.

 

TFP I been noticing keeps removing more and more choice from the player with each update.

I think your confused how "T-Rex" works now.  If you put points in clubs or spears or miner 69 it's basically built in already.  I'd argue it takes fewer skill points than before, because if I wasn't doing a str build I still had to level up T rex.

[BFT2020]

yeah, as an agility player, I don't have to spec into strength now to max out stamina reduction for knives.

[Scyris]

27 minutes ago, Exxodous said:

I think your confused how "T-Rex" works now.  If you put points in clubs or spears or miner 69 it's basically built in already.  I'd argue it takes fewer skill points than before, because if I wasn't doing a str build I still had to level up T rex.

 

naw it takes more skill points not less. when Sex t-rex was in str, it affected ALL melee weapons and tools. In a21, its in the weapon/tool line, so you wanna get max stam reduction with wrenches? too bad you gotta take int to 10 now to get 5/5 salvage ops. Wanna reduce stamina of knives for butchering kills? welp you now need 10 agility and 5/5 knife perk. They made the problem worse not better. 5 str was all you needed to max Sex t-rex 8-10 skill points total, compared to now where getting max stam reduction even in one line is over 15 skill points, and thats just for ONE, want more than one in more than one stat? going to cost you another 15+ skill points.. See why this is a bad change now? It especially hurts single player, well the stat system as a whole kinda screws single player entirely tbh. It just costs more period even with a single weapon/tool line to get max stam use reduction with the system in a21 than it did in a20, now multiply that by 5 stats. it now costs well over 5-10 times the perk point to maximize stam use reduction than it used to in a20. Now do you see why this is a bad system?

 

NOW, if the weapon/tool lines had a learn by doing skill that denoted the level of the perks you could get for those weapons/tools, and it ignored stat requirements Then this would be less painful. I personally feel all weapons and tools should be learn by doing skills, and perks like pummel pete, can be leveled based on your skill in that weapon type in this case clubs for pummel pete.

 

These silly decisions are why I never reccomend 7dtd to anyone anymore unless they are willing to play modded, as the vanilla game is just a ugh experience due to the stat system and other such poorly thought out systems. When they ask me I basically say: Its a good game if you mod it, if you don't the vanilla experience is kinda crap. Once a player mods 7dtd they usually NEVER go back to vanilla again ever, as vanilla is just lacking in so many aspects.

21 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

yeah, as an agility player, I don't have to spec into strength now to max out stamina reduction for knives.

 

Yeah, but now you need to max out any other weapon or tool line you use to get stam reduction instead of just spending a few points into str and having 1 perk that covers everything. Even if your just going ONE weapon/tool line its still a bigger perk point cost than just getting 5 str and sex t-rex maxxed. As you now have to take any stat with the weapon/tool line to 10, and then get 5/5 in that weapon/tool's perk The stat alone getting to 10 costs more than 5 str and sex t-rex did combined. You gotta look at the bigger picture, if you do the math, your spending more skill points for the same effect than if it was like a20. Now it'd be nice if they'd put sex t-rex back into str AND also keep it in the other stats weapon/tool lines. They do not stack (sex t-rex overrides the weapon/tool ones) but at least this way you have a choice, me? I'd always just go 5 str and sex t-rex as it covers every melee weapon and every tool for less perk point cost than taking 1 stat to 10 and the perk to 5/5 to do it for one.

 

Your not saving any perk points with how A21 does it, if anything it's costing you far more perk points to get the same effect only for one weapon instead of one perk that works on everything. Play single player a bit, you'll quickly see the problem with A21's system when you don't have other people that can do the mining, or wrenching for you. Again it costs more perk points to get 5/5 in a single weapon line and the stat to 10 then you would have spent in str and sex t-rex that works on everything, besides Str also has cooking and mining in it, so it was always worth it to get some.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Scyris (see edit history)

[Exxodous]

18 minutes ago, Scyris said:

 

naw it takes more skill points not less. when Sex t-rex was in str, it affected ALL melee weapons and tools. In a21, its in the weapon/tool line, so you wanna get max stam reduction with wrenches? too bad you gotta take int to 10 now to get 5/5 salvage ops. Wanna reduce stamina of knives for butchering kills? welp you now need 10 agility and 5/5 knife perk. They made the problem worse not better. 5 str was all you needed to max Sex t-rex 8-10 skill points total, compared to now where getting max stam reduction even in one line is over 15 skill points, and thats just for ONE, want more than one in more than one stat? going to cost you another 15+ skill points.. See why this is a bad change now? It especially hurts single player, well the stat system as a whole kinda screws single player entirely tbh. It just costs more period even with a single weapon/tool line to get max stam use reduction with the system in a21 than it did in a20, now multiply that by 5 stats. it now costs well over 5-10 times the perk point to maximize stam use reduction 

But if you wanted to use wrenches wouldn't you be taking 5/5 salvage ops requiring int 10  (15 points) anyway?  I've never even considered needing a stamina reduction for butchering an animal that takes 5 or 6 swings lol. 

 

But anyway the way I see it, if I'm playing batons I'll already take 10 int and 5 in batons....so with the new t rex I don't need to take 5 str and 5 t rex saving 10 points.  If I also want to spears for example I'll still want 10 in it's parent skill and 5 in spears, still saving the 10 points in the str tree.  It just seemed in the past that I always had to have points in the str tree no matter what skill I chose, now I do not and I think it's great.

[Riamus]

38 minutes ago, Exxodous said:

But if you wanted to use wrenches wouldn't you be taking 5/5 salvage ops requiring int 10  (15 points) anyway?  I've never even considered needing a stamina reduction for butchering an animal that takes 5 or 6 swings lol. 

 

But anyway the way I see it, if I'm playing batons I'll already take 10 int and 5 in batons....so with the new t rex I don't need to take 5 str and 5 t rex saving 10 points.  If I also want to spears for example I'll still want 10 in it's parent skill and 5 in spears, still saving the 10 points in the str tree.  It just seemed in the past that I always had to have points in the str tree no matter what skill I chose, now I do not and I think it's great.

Exactly.  If you are going to use a specific weapon or set of tools, you should already be putting points into those and that means those points do not count as extra points spent because you would have spent then regardless of the change.

 

Honestly, I rarely used sex rex in A20, or at most only put a point in it.  I never really had issues with stamina even using a spear for the first part of the game rather than ranged.

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, Scyris said:

Yeah, but now you need to max out any other weapon or tool line you use to get stam reduction instead of just spending a few points into str and having 1 perk that covers everything. Even if your just going ONE weapon/tool line its still a bigger perk point cost than just getting 5 str and sex t-rex maxxed. As you now have to take any stat with the weapon/tool line to 10, and then get 5/5 in that weapon/tool's perk The stat alone getting to 10 costs more than 5 str and sex t-rex did combined. You gotta look at the bigger picture, if you do the math, your spending more skill points for the same effect than if it was like a20. Now it'd be nice if they'd put sex t-rex back into str AND also keep it in the other stats weapon/tool lines. They do not stack (sex t-rex overrides the weapon/tool ones) but at least this way you have a choice, me? I'd always just go 5 str and sex t-rex as it covers every melee weapon and every tool for less perk point cost than taking 1 stat to 10 and the perk to 5/5 to do it for one.

 

No, I don't have to max out every other tool or weapon.   Nobody is forcing you to max out stamina for every weapon and every tool in this game, that is a personal choice, and with choices comes drawbacks.  This is max - min play right here.  Maxing the gains out of every equipment in the game at minimum cost.  I prefer I have choices, but have to adjust how I play with the choices I make and the ones I don't have to make.

 

And I was already maxing out knives to Perk level 5 when it was my main weapon, the same as pistols and bows.

[Riamus]

The change shouldn't cost any extra as has been mentioned.  There is of course a potential for a longer time before reaching max stamina reduction on everything you use.  But I don't really see this being a problem.  There's no reason why you need to get better at everything so quickly in the game.  The game suffers from maxing out too quickly because then there isn't all that much to do, so anything that slows this progression down is a good thing.

[Vaeliorin]

The thing is, outside of combat, stamina is kinda a trash mechanic.  Making the player stand around and wait is not good game design.  And yes, without putting points in Salvage Operations, you can't salvage an entire car without stopping for stamina.

 

I'm making do, but as someone who always puts at least 7 points into Strength (I always max out Miner 69'er/Mother Lode first) I don't really love the change.  I'd say it's tolerable, but not a positive for me.

[Riamus]

44 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

The thing is, outside of combat, stamina is kinda a trash mechanic.  Making the player stand around and wait is not good game design.  And yes, without putting points in Salvage Operations, you can't salvage an entire car without stopping for stamina.

 

I'm making do, but as someone who always puts at least 7 points into Strength (I always max out Miner 69'er/Mother Lode first) I don't really love the change.  I'd say it's tolerable, but not a positive for me.

If I was going to take time to start scrapping cars, I'd put at least one point in Salvage Operations anyhow.  Still, you are correct in that anyone who was a strength-focused build will most likely not like the change as it makes they were already putting a lot of points into strength and so the points into sex rex wasn't an issue.  But for anyone focusing on any other tree, this is going to mostly be a help to them.  It's not great that it hurts those who focus on strength but with the improvements for everyone else, it kind of is still worth it since it will benefit more people than it hurts.  Unfortunately, they can't make it perfect for everyone because everyone plays differently and focuses on different things.  For me, I'm more of a Jack of All Trades player.  I have specific perks that I want and I'll get them regardless of where they are located, so I have stuff spread out into multiple areas.  But I usually didn't put anything into strength until mid game once I had everything else I wanted and really wanted to get into mining, so not having points in strength to get stamina reduction is a good thing for me.  Of course, I rarely put more than one or two points into sex rex anyhow, so it is actually a greater benefit to me because I'm now getting more stamina reduction than I would normally have gotten at no additional cost.  But that's just because of how I play and what perks I consider best for me and isn't going to be the same for others.

[Survior]

17 hours ago, tdevine said:

 I suggest making it an OPTION so that ONLY the player that looted the magazine can read or use it.  This way, the crafting progression can remain balanced for everyone and the team in question, so the game keeps its challenge.  And I said OPTION, so players that do not want this don't have to use it.

 

The game doesn't need no-drop magical-MMO-like items. The whole game is already going way too far into only_one_path_to_play, the problem that your experiencing is at a much deeper and higher level, that is the entire magazine system is quite silly as it is. Hopefully they will figure out a better way eventually.