Nothing says open world survival crafting like being forced to run quests.....

[VALL]

Really not a fan of the last several iterations of trying to "fix" the crafting/looting/skills systems. What is going on? Why are we being forced to play an open world survival game a certain type of way?, it makes no sense. I don't want to have to grind POI quests all day. It just feels cumbersome and a constant grind instead of any sort of natural progression. All of the graphical improvements, Random gen, everything you guys have done has been awesome. But what the hell is the deal with finding and looting a million books. Is this really because you put a ton of work into POI's so you feel you have to force everyone to run them all the time? And what is the deal with setting up all POI's now with every single zombie being hidden or bursting out of a wall, or dropping from the ceiling. Is just randomly being ambushed with almost no control what you think is fun? The progression just feels so bad, and isn't fun or entertaining trying to track down millions of books. Why did someone think this would be fun? I am very confused. Any way we can get a classic mode or something and revert back to the original systems. I recommend taking a look at undeadlegacy or some of the mods that are at least trying to sort of do interesting things without making it just feel ugh....

[meganoth]

You don't need to do quests. You can just loot buildings, craft and build.

 

[Maxwar]

7 minutes ago, meganoth said:

You don't need to do quests. You can just loot buildings, craft and build.

 

 But they don't want to loot buildings. They want to stay as far away as as possible from any signs of civilization.  They want to chop wood, quarry rocks, harvest leather. Then Invent and build rocket launchers from scratch.   /s

[pApA^LeGBa]

Don´t do quests. It´s not like you need them to be able to survive just fine. You don´t even need the trader at all. For SP you find enough water in loot so you actually don´t need a dew collector to stay hydrated and eventually you will find waterfilters in destroyed collectors so you can make glue.

 

If you simply do no quests, the only thing that happens is that you level slower and have less money. Both things don´t really make it harder. Just slower. Wich doesn´t matter at all as the game treats you according to your gamestage wich is defined by level and days alive. 

 

And yes, the skill magazines are acutally to force people to go looting. But you can find a ton of them outside of POI´s aswell. Newstands and Mailboxes do give you a lot of those and airdrops have them also.

 

Also what makes you think Undead Legacy won´t use those magazines aswell in A21? Maybe subquake likes the system and keeps it in UL.

Edited June 12, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Frekton]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

You don't need to do quests. You can just loot buildings, craft and build.

 

One sentence to ignore 90% of the op's comments.... Not helpful at all.

[VALL]

You don't need to do quests. You can just loot buildings, craft and build.

 

Right...So the only way to survive is to run through poi's constantly. Thats limiting the game to only 1 type of playstyle. Why? All I was saying.

 

Also what makes you think Undead Legacy won´t use those magazines aswell in A21? Maybe subquake likes the system and keeps it in UL.

 

Fingers crossed. Hopefully he has better taste.

[VALL]

But they don't want to loot buildings. They want to stay as far away as as possible from any signs of civilization.  They want to chop wood, quarry rocks, harvest leather. Then Invent and build rocket launchers from scratch.   /s

 

Yes, its an open world survival game. Should be able to play it however you enjoy playing it. Shrug.

[Survior]

The current state of 7days2die is "looter shooter" not "crafting survival"

 

The change to water and magazines, however unimportant to some player changes the nature of the game, for me it's awful.

 

There is nothing to be said that can convince me that long working mechanics of getting water from a water source like a river and boiling the water should be removed for a loot only, or weird expensive and not to scale water collector, it would have been a good addition but not a replacement. Not in a crafting/survival game.

I mean maybe if it was on Mars a water machine would be required lol.

 

Also, finding books magically that you have skill points in? I mean.. it's a total vibe killer, it's awful. Being a post apocalypse survivor shouldn't come with loot guarantees.

[Maxwar]

2 hours ago, VALL said:

But they don't want to loot buildings. They want to stay as far away as as possible from any signs of civilization.  They want to chop wood, quarry rocks, harvest leather. Then Invent and build rocket launchers from scratch.   /s

 

Yes, its an open world survival game. Should be able to play it however you enjoy playing it. Shrug.

Hmm sounds like challenge !!  Play out there in the woods and never go to a trader or cities. I like that. The new map generation tools of A21 should help with that. Make a wilderness friendly map. Maybe you are only allowed to loot POI outside of towns because the towns are contaminated and literally everyone else is dead. You could tweak some other settings to compensate, maybe boost loot abundance or make the blood moons more frequent and/or have more zombies to have a chance at looting more backpacks. 

 

 

[Survior]

59 minutes ago, Maxwar said:

Hmm sounds like challenge !!  Play out there in the woods and never go to a trader or cities. I like that. The new map generation tools of A21 should help with that. Make a wilderness friendly map. Maybe you are only allowed to loot POI outside of towns because the towns are contaminated and literally everyone else is dead. You could tweak some other settings to compensate, maybe boost loot abundance or make the blood moons more frequent and/or have more zombies to have a chance at looting more backpacks. 

 

 

 

This has been a viable play style for years until now, because somehow you will now die of thirst next to a lake/river instead of looting toilets like a good boy.

 

 

[Riamus]

5 minutes ago, Survior said:

This has been a viable play style for years until now, because somehow you will now die of thirst next to a lake/river instead of looting toilets like a good boy.

Why would you die of thirst?  You might have to deal with dysentery but not thirst.  Just drink from the lake or river.  With the helmet mod, dysentery isn't even an issue.  I found it on day 3 in one game.  Not using it but I did find it.    Granted, if you are avoiding towns, finding that mod might be very difficult.

[pApA^LeGBa]

I mean we have a ton of different POI´s with loot and ressources to harvest since forever in this game now. Did you really think they are just there to be pretty?

 

If they wouldn´t serve any purpose they would have done a game in the wilderness with no cities and wouldn´t have put a lot of effort in making POI´s for years now. The direction the game was going was pretty obvious for quite a while now tbh.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Survior]

28 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

I mean we have a ton of different POI´s with loot and ressources to harvest since forever in this game now. Did you really think they are just there to be pretty?

 

If they wouldn´t serve any purpose they would have done a game in the wilderness with no cities and wouldn´t have put a lot of effort in making POI´s for years now. The direction the game was going was pretty obvious for quite a while now tbh.

 

 

With this argument we could say "Hey, we made batons for years" Did you think we weren't going to make you use them?" and other ridiculous nonsense.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Survior Nope. That´s apples and oranges. Not even that, it´s apples and the moon. That´s how bad that comparison is. One weapon that is quite easy to implement in the game and didn´t take years of work  versus all the POI´s we have in game constantly beeing developed further since they started to make the game. 

 

Also the baton got a buff. Need to test it still, but it should be better.

Edited June 13, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Lokeus]

5 hours ago, Survior said:

There is nothing to be said that can convince me that long working mechanics of getting water from a water source like a river and boiling the water should be removed for a loot only, or weird expensive and not to scale water collector, it would have been a good addition but not a replacement.

 

Also, finding books magically that you have skill points in? I mean.. it's a total vibe killer, it's awful. Being a post apocalypse survivor shouldn't come with loot guarantees.

 

Agree completely in both points. Though i wrote in another thread that the water filter mod for helmet now is quite useful and so you don`t need a water collector, but to be honest, just its existance bothers me as this does not really fits well into the game as - correct - its a looter shooter and not crafting survival. If its crafting survival i want also a smoker grill, animal traps and all kind of stuff like this.

[VALL]

Even running only wilderness poi's is still just running around and looting which you have to do or you can't advance in the game. It's just very limiting for no particular reason. Every single point is now just a little mini quest regardless of if you pick it up from the trader or not. They make all zombies hidden in walls or closets so you can't avoid them. You can't get creative and try to cut through walls cause they built poi's around not being able to do that now. You literally have to trudge through each point like a mini dungeon. I just don't get why. The game has so many options that could all be viable and fun and different playstyles but they are hellbent on making you play the game a certain way. It's baffling to me.

[Lokeus]

Regarding Mini Dungeon Mechanic: I wouldn`t agree too much. Yes they are all build the same way but sometimes i just want to break rules and kill and wake up every zed from outside. Sometimes i like to play sneaky, sometimes i want to be the macho who runs through the house, opening all doors and pulling them all outside just to bomb they away with some funny explosions

But yes, i also enjoyed it when there was an open POI with no dungeon mechanic, just to explore and decide where to go first. It was a better mix. I am wondering if they concipated dungeons with more than one way. Of course you could often shorten the way, but i guess you know what i mean, just 2 "official" ways without cheating their path.

But to be honest, dungeon exploration often is the most joyful way to explore a new POI for the first time. When visiting the same POI again, i like it to vary, and yes, sometimes i also skip a lot of crap just to get in benefit of the main loot. This is also something they should change. No main loot, better spread it randomly in the location. But atm loot locations are fixed i think.

[boban]

9 minutes ago, VALL said:

It's just very limiting for no particular reason

 

They put all the efforts into POIs and you just want to avoid them or cut through the walls? 😛 /s

 

Seriously, it's the overall direction that they are taking the game since around A17. It's their game and I for sure got my money's worth already. Now modded is the way to go for me.

[Lokeus]

4 minutes ago, boban said:

 

They put all the efforts into POIs and you just want to avoid them or cut through the walls? 😛 /s

 

Seriously, it's the overall direction that they are taking the game since around A17. It's their game and I for sure got my money's worth already. Now modded is the way to go for me.

 

I think you are right but it is definitely a bit annoying to mind of some adjustments for the other player base which is playing outside of the cities. I don`t think it would take much efforts to make the game playable with slower progression outside the cities. Wilderness got better by time, but it is still away from "exciting" to play there. Neverthless exploring mines, camps and some lonely cabins is really cool indeed, but i missing some natural sweet spots which would also give you the possibility to live there and build your base like high spotted caves or waterfalls as natural safe spots for example. Exploration in the city is very enjoyable but in the wilderness it is limited.

[minisith]

10 minutes ago, Lokeus said:

 

I think you are right but it is definitely a bit annoying to mind of some adjustments for the other player base which is playing outside of the cities. I don`t think it would take much efforts to make the game playable with slower progression outside the cities. Wilderness got better by time, but it is still away from "exciting" to play there. Neverthless exploring mines, camps and some lonely cabins is really cool indeed, but i missing some natural sweet spots which would also give you the possibility to live there and build your base like high spotted caves or waterfalls as natural safe spots for example. Exploration in the city is very enjoyable but in the wilderness it is limited.

This game never had waterfalls.... 

[Kosmic Kerman]

40 minutes ago, VALL said:

Even running only wilderness poi's is still just running around and looting which you have to do or you can't advance in the game. It's just very limiting for no particular reason. Every single point is now just a little mini quest regardless of if you pick it up from the trader or not. They make all zombies hidden in walls or closets so you can't avoid them. You can't get creative and try to cut through walls cause they built poi's around not being able to do that now. You literally have to trudge through each point like a mini dungeon. I just don't get why. The game has so many options that could all be viable and fun and different playstyles but they are hellbent on making you play the game a certain way. It's baffling to me.

The answer is simple. TFP are designing the game they have fun playing. They are not creating the game to your, or my, specifications. There are  plenty of open world/sandbox/survival games out there. The problem is a lot of them are incredibly boring, to me at least, because there is no game loop. In 7d2d part of the game loop is looting houses and doing quests. It just is what it is. 

[VALL]

I get that they are making the game. It's just a weird direction to take after 10 years of development. They also sold it as an open world survival horde crafting game. Now it's more like diablo. Go loot a bunch of stuff. Get slightly better gear. Repeat. Huge lack of depth there. The crafting and survival have become second fiddle to just looting. The old systems at least offered some variety of gameplay. 

Edited June 13, 2023 by VALL (see edit history)

[Maxwar]

15 minutes ago, boban said:

 

They put all the efforts into POIs and you just want to avoid them or cut through the walls? 😛 /s

 

Seriously, it's the overall direction that they are taking the game since around A17. It's their game and I for sure got my money's worth already. Now modded is the way to go for me.

 That is close to my take on it. They made the game highly customizable and moddable. A large portion of the active players use mods.  I see vanilla as a base platform that players can tweak and if all the settings are not enough, then mod. The game was designed to be like this and I think it the reason it is so good. TFP continually improve the hard coded aspects of the game that cannot be modded easily, making the platform better with each new release. The game comes with a default flavor (vanilla) that if you don't like or get tired of you can just mod. I play Vanilla a bit with each new release and appreciate it for what it is, I always felt that Vanilla was fun and well balanced but it only has so much content. So after I am done exploring the latest vanilla I will typically play overhaul mods until the next alpha. Currently I have not gotten into A21 more than superficially as I want to finish a A20 Undead legacy playthrough first. 

[Kosmic Kerman]

9 minutes ago, VALL said:

I get that they are making the game. It's just a weird direction to take after 10 years of development. They also sold it as an open world survival horde crafting game. Now it's more like diablo. Go loot a bunch of stuff. Get slightly better gear. Repeat. Huge lack of depth there. The crafting and survival have become second fiddle to just looting. The old systems at least offered some variety of gameplay. 

The game has been about looting for a long time now. Even when you primarily crafted your tools and weapons, you still had to loot the parts. The difference was you were looting mostly empty buildings. That’s not what TFP wanted so they changed that and made buildings more challenging and more rewarding.  What you are looking for is a fundamentally different game than what 7d2d is.  The core game loop is quest and build a horde base. You can obviously not play this way but it’s going to be much more challenging. And of course you can no longer just mine for XP to improve your crafting skills. 

[Survior]

40 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

The answer is simple. TFP are designing the game they have fun playing. They are not creating the game to your, or my, specifications. There are  plenty of open world/sandbox/survival games out there. The problem is a lot of them are incredibly boring, to me at least, because there is no game loop. In 7d2d part of the game loop is looting houses and doing quests. It just is what it is. 

This gives absolutely no explanation (*as there is none*) as why you would kill game loops for crafting/farming as they have done, you literally don't have to do those things if you don't want to but, they want to force you play the game in a specific way, that's not a sandbox, it's more linear looter shooter. Why kill the fun of a certain group of people? A lot of people would never touch farming or make their crafting base beyond basic survival needs. Why kill it for others?

 

TLDR: Making the game fun for one group didn't require killing the fun for another group.