Is Stealth play viable in late game?

[Apocalyptical Survivor]

I see all these attractive stealthing abilities, but given the nature of this game and how you're so often up close and personal with groups of tough zombies, I don't see many opportunities for playing this game in stealth mode. My current build is all Steel armor, T6 Steel Auto Shotgun and T6 Steel bat, I'm around L140 and I club things to death or blow their heads off. I can't imagine stealth being very effective, but I'm intrigued enough that I'd like to hear from others who play stealth and be told credibly otherwise. What armor and weapons do use, how do  you fare in T5 quest finales and the bazillion radiated ferals that gang up on you at that point?

 

[Javabean867]

My experience may be different.  and i do play on default difficulty.  Stealth is op.  Yeah late game you get powerful enough with your weapons that you can charge through a poi and murder everything, but if you stealth build properly you 1 shot everything.

[theFlu]

24 minutes ago, Apocalyptical Survivor said:

What armor and weapons do use, how do  you fare in T5 quest finales

A crossbow with steel bolts. Sneak around, shoot the fish in the barrel, loot up and leave. Mostly the zeds will not even know they died. Again. If you wake anything up, a good pistol is plenty and an SMG does wonders. Armor? Nah, or, anything, as long as it doesn't make sound.

[Melange]

Stealth is good up to about mid game, imho. Up until then one can sneak and take out one or more zeds with a bow or silenced firearm. After that, may as well stand up and give them all the lead you can give, because you've managed to cross a trigger that sends the others to you.  And be ready for those nearby that sense the commotion , either its the sound you make or merely tripping the 'actuator' that wakes them up. And the zeds become more resilent as we progress. Too busy trying to eliminate them to realise they ain't dead yet. Damn, the many times I forget to stand up before some entity whaps me upside the head (or breaks my leg to infect me) reminding me to get on my feet and just defend! Stealth is fun, but it tends to get me hurt or killed after a while. I for one, prefer brute force over sneak tactics after a while.   Do you experience the same? What's your tactic?

[Apocalyptical Survivor]

Well I haven't tried stealth yet so I don't have a tactic for it, I'm very interested in giving it a try, but not if it's useless at my gamestage. I'm waiting for A21 before I build a new world, I'd prefer to keep playing my existing world, and it's easy enough to use a forgetting elixir and respec into a stealth build, so I would do that and give it a try, but I know nothing about the mechanics or the armor considerations, etc., so I'm starting my research now and I thought this would be a good place to ask those who play stealth. I see a lot of videos about how to start a new game in stealth, but I'm in mid to late game stage now and my main question is if stealth is still viable at this stage.

 

Thanks for any insights or suggestions.

[theFlu]

26 minutes ago, Apocalyptical Survivor said:

use a forgetting elixir and respec into a stealth build

Hmm, well, buy 2 and give it a go ..

 

If you want some "specific" advice:

 

Spoiler

For a build, assuming full Agi of course, From the Shadows > Archery > Pistols, probably in that order for base stealth play.

Secondarily: <whatever the stealth damage perk is named> > run & gun > parkour (takes getting used to, buy 2/4 first to see if you like it)

Knives of course - if you want a melee weapon. You probably do.

 

Armor; either padded, or military; leather armor doesn't really offer enough over padded for the drawbacks. If military, add advanced muffled connectors first.

Weapons.. crossbow is the most reliable one-shot due to highest damage. Pistol/SMG are less noisy than the .44s. Silencers of course.

 

For gameplay;

Never leave crouch when moving forwards. Don't leave crouch even when you wake someone up, just kill it fast; you'll wake a lot less things that way. Basically, only get up from crouch to loot an area you've already cleared.

 

Learn to dig out the zeds from their silly hidy holes. Might need to break a roof here and there. You can also shovel a bag of cobble out of the way without waking the zed behind. Might need to place a ramp block to slide up over a couch. etc etc.

 

Mind the lights, but with a full spec they're not usually critical, especially when ranged. Your stealth meter shows something, but it's not really a good value for anything; but it's useful to see if you are stepping into a light - when it suddenly changes.

Mostly just keep you headlight off. Blinking it isn't any less visible than keeping it on, but if you cross a trigger line with it on, it counts against the trigger value. So, don't move with it on.

 

As you approach an end-fight, build yourself a ramp. Nowadays they seem quite forgiving even without, but it's a good habit not to jump or climb ladders when near a bad spot. Once you have a good idea where everyone is, toss them each a pineapple, and keep the pin from the last one to yourself ...

 

EDIT: Oh, and absolutely: Night is your friend. 5/5 stealth and night time, feral sense zeds can't spot you outdoors.. they'll run after your noises, but they won't really attack you.

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Melange]

8 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Hmm, well, buy 2 and give it a go ..

 

If you want some "specific" advice:

 

  Hide contents

For a build, assuming full Agi of course, From the Shadows > Archery > Pistols, probably in that order for base stealth play.

Secondarily: <whatever the stealth damage perk is named> > run & gun > parkour (takes getting used to, buy 2/4 first to see if you like it)

Knives of course - if you want a melee weapon. You probably do.

 

Armor; either padded, or military; leather armor doesn't really offer enough over padded for the drawbacks. If military, add advanced muffled connectors first.

Weapons.. crossbow is the most reliable one-shot due to highest damage. Pistol/SMG are less noisy than the .44s. Silencers of course.

 

For gameplay;

Never leave crouch when moving forwards. Don't leave crouch even when you wake someone up, just kill it fast; you'll wake a lot less things that way. Basically, only get up from crouch to loot an area you've already cleared.

 

Learn to dig out the zeds from their silly hidy holes. Might need to break a roof here and there. You can also shovel a bag of cobble out of the way without waking the zed behind. Might need to place a ramp block to slide up over a couch. etc etc.

 

Mind the lights, but with a full spec they're not usually critical, especially when ranged. Your stealth meter shows something, but it's not really a good value for anything; but it's useful to see if you are stepping into a light - when it suddenly changes.

Mostly just keep you headlight off. Blinking it isn't any less visible than keeping it on, but if you cross a trigger line with it on, it counts against the trigger value. So, don't move with it on.

 

As you approach an end-fight, build yourself a ramp. Nowadays they seem quite forgiving even without, but it's a good habit not to jump or climb ladders when near a bad spot. Once you have a good idea where everyone is, toss them each a pineapple, and keep the pin from the last one to yourself ...

 

Nice, very nice commentary. I use stealth to get at least part way into a POI, then I inevitably mess it up and just have to use lead. I have always brushed off the crossbow, thinking a long bow would be as effective whilst sneaking. Lesson learned. But I am still hesitant. May update once I give it a try. We all find our tool of demise that we are most comfortable with. I use the entry level spear to bag the trapped rabbit or the slow chicken, and the lone zoned out zombie. Later I give up the spear in favor of the bash em in the cranium wooden club.  None of which make any noise, so we can get by with a lot. But faced with three or more zeds, not confined to a doorway once our cover is broken, I shoot 'em. 

[Syphon583]

I run stealth builds almost exclusively, typically Warrior difficulty. From my experience, stealth has been viable even in late game doing T5 POIs. Now, inevitably, regardless of how stealthy you are, there are some sleeper volumes that wake up when you enter no matter what. If you're running a stealth build, you should easily be able to put points into Gunslinger, which governs not just pistols, but SMG as well. If you're able to get your hands on a high-tier SMG and Desert Vulture, you'd be pretty unstoppable in those moments.

 

As far as armor goes, high-tier military armor is the way to go given how quiet and protective it is (make sure to get mods that reduce noise), especially if you can get your hands on military stealth boots (different from military boots). Military armor does not protect as well as steel armor, but you don't burn as much stamina and you can move around quicker.

 

This is kind of a separate/related issue, but Feral Sense can be tempered a bit by fully spec'd out stealth builds, however I've personally found Feral Sense more annoying than fun, so I usually have it off. To make up the increased difficulty I'd get from Feral Sense, I have a couple different mods that turn up world spawns and wandering horde frequencies. Makes for more exciting gameplay without being constantly (annoyingly) bothered by zombies all the time.

[Uncle Al]

Can't stress 'keep your headlight off' enough.  Carrying a light source doesn't give you a penalty when you cross a trigger, it makes you automatically fail the stealth check!

 

Trigger checks are heavily light dependant even if you're not carrying the light yourself - stepping out on a roof in bright sunlight will often get you spotted.  Night is definitely your friend.

 

You will fail trigger checks occasionally, but the 'automatically know where you are' triggers got removed in A20. Just because a bunch of zombies come bursting out of hiding doesn't mean they know where you are.  They'll usually go and investigate your last position but they haven't seen you.  You'll still get your stealth damage bonus on zombies that are staggering around investigating noises.  Throwing rocks will move them to where you want them if things get a bit dicey as long as you haven't yet been actually spotted.

 

With 5/5 stealth you can regain concealment in 10 seconds even if you get spotted, once you get out of sight.

Edited July 21, 2022 by Uncle Al (see edit history)

[Apocalyptical Survivor]

Great tips, thanks guys. I decided to roll a new character on a new world server, to learn stealth play from the ground up. The journey, after all, is the reward.

[Ray Garraty]

13 hours ago, Apocalyptical Survivor said:

I don't see many opportunities for playing this game in stealth mode

Yeah, you try to clean Higashi without stealth at a high gamestage...

Using stealth, however, I've managed to clean it without any damage.

[ElCabong]

Stealth doesn't really start getting good until you put two points in it. When I start a new game it's the first thing I pick. I spec bow, pistol, armor, and the last two stealth abilities. one is from the shadows and I forget what the other one is. One of them increases your stealthiness the other one increases your damage when you attack out of stealth. 

 

Put no more than two in parkour. It helps

 

When you have three points in stealth you will be able to walk up to them and club them. Well that is fun, I have more fun headshotting them with my 9 mm

 

My pet peeve is silencers can be difficult to come by. But you can use your bow or crossbow until you get one. Scopes are easier to come by.

 

You are just as effective with a bow or a crossbow. I have more fun with a bow but I can't put a scope on a bow. I can put a scope on a crossbow.

 

Later game I will equip my crossbow and go to a city the wasteland and one shot the high end zombies that spawn there. Don't stay too long in one place or you'll get overwhelmed.

 

 

Your bow or crossbow can become a grenade launcher when you find the correct ranger book. Late game I have a couple of exploding bolts ready for when I enter those rooms that are triggered to jump you. I once cleared an entire room with one exploding crossbow bolt. 

 

I put one point in armor so I can make military armor in the late game. I suppose it would be optional if you're content with padded.

 

 

 

[Viktoriusiii]

I am unsure of what to think, since a lot of people here say its great...
but I haven't seen any changes inthe logs since I last played... and it was borderline unplayable.

There were hwole discussions (two of those started by me) around the auto-wake-up.

As a long LONG stealth player (A8) this is the first alpha where I just left stealth behind. If 50% of rooms wake up anyways and even crossbows are triggering wakeups... I just feel better having an actual weapon to fight.

[ElDudorino]

I don't doubt that it's possible to sneak your way through a whole PoI without taking damage but it seems like it would just take 3x as long for no extra reward, and then on horde night every point towards stealth is a wasted point anyway because stealth is invalidated for the horde.

 

I guess I kinda get the appeal because I do get some joy from stealth-killing entire boss rooms without waking a single zombie, but I do it in steel armor without a single point in stealth just by not crossing the sleeper volume's trigger point.  Doesn't work for the volumes where the zombies don't spawn until you pass the wake threshold but I figure that's where stealth is at its worst anyway so meh.

[Ramethzer0]

I just wanna state for someone whom also has had a fairly large number of hours also playing in stealth builds.

 

Stealth IS NOT, absolutely NOT the answer to every single combat situation.

 

You WILL be forced into personal combat at some points.  The question you get to ask yourself is how to change your pitch up if you had to walk into an AUTO-wakeup situation.  You can get pretty far with stealth, and its a fun playstyle, but do not let yourself be deceived that you can just snipe your way through everything.

 

It's also a bit annoying to have to be super patient when you use stealth when you're running very short day/night cycles.   It's wise to be flexible, and it's always good to keep an SMG handy in case the world decides it's had enough of you.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

10 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

You WILL be forced into personal combat at some points.  The question you get to ask yourself is how to change your pitch up if you had to walk into an AUTO-wakeup situation.

This summarizes everything wrong with stealth.
"hey you know that specialization that oyu took, that is absolutely useless in combat?
Yea its only going to work like 70% of the time and otherwise force you into combat. Also good lcuk on hordenights "

[theFlu]

19 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

This summarizes everything wrong with stealth.

Not true. It doesn't even begin to address the other end of it: "Hey, you finally got good at stealth, now practically nothing wakes up and even the rare few that do, pose no actual threat as they can't find you anyway."

 

Yeh, it's kinda broken both ways atm...

[Ramethzer0]

48 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

This summarizes everything wrong with stealth.
"hey you know that specialization that oyu took, that is absolutely useless in combat?
Yea its only going to work like 70% of the time and otherwise force you into combat. Also good lcuk on hordenights "

I don't agree.   I'm not going to say you are wrong, but I also don't think you're right either.  I think it actually is a good thing to be taken out of your comfort zone so you can gird against one-trick pony weaknesses.

 

As you had mentioned 'specializations' are, to me, (I play the same map for months going for level 140+ at times) are illusory at best.  I think while it pads a comfortable skillset that you might choose for a large portion of your gameplay, I don't feel its powerful enough to be so defining.   Just looking at the stat boost increases, they are small and only when you have maxed out perks and mods does it even start to feel like it.  Maybe it's me, but I also don't feel that hyper 'specialization' into a single attribute tree is singularly a worthwhile experience either.  Hybridization and challenging myself to express different strategies has always been my strongest asset.  These strategies are not always represented accurately with numbers.  Your environment plays a huge factor into how strategies pan out.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Viktoriusiii]

30 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

I don't agree.   I'm not going to say you are wrong, but I also don't think you're right either.  I think it actually is a good thing to be taken out of your comfort zone so you can gird against one-trick pony weaknesses.

I'd agree if there wasn't a single factor

I always say:
Don't punish the player for doing the right thing.

Stealth NEEDS to be able to work perfectly.
It is a mechanic. A mechanic can not be random (if its not a specific feature of said mechanic).

Imagine if in celest or meatboy the jump is in 10% of cases half or double as high as normal.
No matter how good you are, there is no way around this. It would be frustrating, because there is no way to "solve" this.

If however there is lets say an item that you can activate, then it is in the players control, and everythign is fine.

You want to know why I became a RL 'pro' after switching from fifa (shame upon me :D)?
Because the mechanic is ALWAYS the same.
If I hit the ball a certain way, it will go there 100% of times.
In fifa, if I press the pass button 100% the same, it sometimes goes up, down middle and all around. Because it is out of players control, this feature is one of the most hated features, beaten only by the P2W ultimate team.

The feature of stealth needs certain clear rules.
Step on a paper -> wakeup
Step in the light (where is light? needs a lightmeter) -> wake up
loot -> wake up
shoot with a nonsilent weapon -> wake up

right now all of these things are weird.
Sometimes they dont wake up if you shoot with a shotgun in front of them, sometimes you just sneak with 0 visibility and all perks and they wake up.
It is not consistent.
Make noise checks harder.
Add more obstacles that could do sounds. Add tripwires and stuff.

But if the player is good enough to avoid ALL of that, he needs to have a 100% sucessrate.

Why did I not like the first iteration of traps? (crane, office fall and so on)
Because there was no indication and no way to avoid it without knowing exactly what will happen.
Now traps are in a much better place. Most are telegraphed or simply don't kill you and just put you in a worse position...

But sneaking is just... the worst right now, because you can't rely on it, but you need to rely on it to survive.

[Apocalyptical Survivor]

Lot of great information in this convo, thanks guys. I went ahead and re-rolled a new map for stealth play for my wife and I and we are having a blast. We're not far yet, barely level 30, but we're learning a lot about the things being said here and the various inconsistencies, etc. We don't intend to be one-trick ponies, we're beefing up our face combat too.

 

I like the efficiency of the Agility tree, getting into Light Armor, pistols, knives and archery for the same 10 pt cap. I want a natural 10 in AGI while looking for some Nerdy glasses for my INT for Advanced Engineering and Trader buffs. Electric fences seem pretty OP for horde nights, so I'm not too worried about the ineffectiveness of stealth then, it's after all only once a week. The rest of the time we seem to be able to clear out most POIs, and the ones that wake up unexpectedly go down with some good coordination between us. Knife power attacks to the head at AGI 10 are fun as hell and very deadly.

 

I don't feel like we need to rely on stealth to survive. That may change at higher game stages, but for now we're having more than enough fun to justify the experiment. We'll probably just keep playing this out as our mains until (and if) things start to go south.

 

Thanks for the many tips and insights.

[Uncle Al]

It's a stated design decision that stealth will not allow you to wander a POI shooting immobile zombies 100% of the time.  That's very unlikely to change and that's not a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.

 

Stealth is 100% reliable IF you count disengaging and restealthing occasionally as still being 'successful'. Your stealth skills are still preventing you taking damage while you get to dish out insane damage stealth shots.

 

I imagine stealth might get another tweak if TFP get wandering sleepers working.  Certainly that would help with some of the 'zombies only spawn once you're inside a very small room' issues but that's actually a problem with level design rather than stealth itself.  Even without wandering sleepers, the level designers are constantly looking for badly implemented spawn volumes and fixing them, so we should see ongoing improvements to the most egregious problem POIs. 

[8_Hussars]

18 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Stealth NEEDS to be able to work perfectly.
It is a mechanic. A mechanic can not be random (if its not a specific feature of said mechanic).

Because the mechanic is ALWAYS the same.
If I hit the ball a certain way, it will go there 100% of times.

In fifa, if I press the pass button 100% the same, it sometimes goes up, down middle and all around. Because it is out of players control, this feature is one of the most hated features, beaten only by the P2W ultimate team.

With all due respect Viktoriusiii,

There is a fundamental difference between a pure twitch skill mechanic which should be consistent and a system mechanic.  Which arguably also should be consistently inconsistent.  By that I mean it follows all the rules of the mechanics and the systems, but has an RNG component (e.g. stealth checks).

I have no doubt that the stealth system follows those rules to the letter and I respectfully disagree that the stealth mechanic should always "work perfectly" (and arguably why FIFA gets it more right).  Stealth cannot and should not be able to be 100% effective in all situations, ever.

P.S. Never try World of Tanks, with +/- 25% RNG on pen and damage rolls, you will not enjoy it.

[Viktoriusiii]

1 hour ago, 8_Hussars said:

Stealth cannot and should not be able to be 100% effective in all situations, ever.

 

It shouldnt. It should work in those situations that it is used for.
Imagine if your gun didn't fire in 20% of cases or your hammerswing did nothing in 20% of cases with no way to reduce or eliminate that.

But stealth is made only for looting buildings. It is completely useless on hordenight. It doesnt give you more loot and is actually slower than normal clearing.
You give time and fightingpower to save ammo and have garantueed safety.
If you don't have that, then the only useful thing is gone.

 

1 hour ago, 8_Hussars said:

P.S. Never try World of Tanks, with +/- 25% RNG on pen and damage rolls, you will not enjoy it.

Tanks are huge unpredicatble machines. If you want realism, then a random check is needed to emulate 10000 factors coming together.
You know that you have to shoot a tanks weakspots.
Imagine if you shot the perfect shot every time, but it only works 80% of the time.

Or in sniper elite, if a headshot doesnt automaticially kill the enemy. Because it doesnt always in reality. But that means you simply have to quickload and do the exact same thing.


These imperfections are only useful in very rare exceptions. Either to emulate complexity (like in the "War of ***" series) or because it is part of the system.

I would love gunquality to make guns inconsistent. So a lvl 1 gun doesn't shoot 10% of times and needs to be reloaded.
A lvl 6 gun only 0.1%. And with all 5 perks, it does not happen at all.
1. it makes sense
2. it gives incentive to explore and upgrade (combines with other systems)
3. it is telegraphed by a value
4. you can counteract it.

But just randomly doing it with no explanation and no way to fight it for artificial drama is just boring and lazy.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)

[8_Hussars]

 Sorry, I think I am covering ground well covered in the other threads.
 

12 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

It shouldnt. It should work in those situations that it is used for.
Imagine if your gun didn't fire in 20% of cases or your hammerswing did nothing in 20% of cases with no way to reduce or eliminate that.

 

But that is my point exactly.  The gun should fire when you click, the hammer should swing.  That is a mechanic, hitting what I am potentially aiming at, needs "a random check", "to emulate 10000 factors coming together" that is the "system".  Those other factors (using RNG as a surrogate) determine if I hit what I am aiming at, miss, or miss and still hit (zombie juking into the path instead of out of it).  We all have our tolerance on what and how much RNG "feels" right.  I think 0 RNG is too generous and a player should never expect 100% success, but that is my tolerance not every-ones. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:

But just randomly doing it with no explanation and no way to fight it for artificial drama is just boring and lazy.

I may be miss-remembering but in a previous thread (probably one of yours), a bunch of stealth check situations were pulled from the XML or code that explained how stealth checks work.  They may not be balanced, or balanced to everyone's liking, but they were there.  The mechanics are not random, however the outcome can be somewhat random within the constraints of the system and the RNG "stealth check roll.

[Viktoriusiii]

52 minutes ago, 8_Hussars said:

The mechanics are not random, however the outcome can be somewhat random within the constraints of the system and the RNG "stealth check roll.

Untelevised factors make it feel random, even if it isnt.

Take light for example.
If you have a 0 stelathmeter and still get caught with no explanation of what happened... what are you supposed to think as the player?
What did you do wrong? What could you do better next time?