Lets help TFP improve PvP

[bloom_meister]

This is already a thing in the game, and actually quite cheap. If you place wood frames or hay bales around all but one side of a piece of tnt, you can create shaped blasts that allow you to break open safes or vault doors much faster than an auger. I always bring a few pieces along with me when looting in case I see a gun safe. It shouldn't be that hard to mod the game so that explosions ignore LCBs.

 

I may be missing sarcasm here although my radar is normally good. How exactly would you place blocks on claimed land..?

[Sinz]

Some interesting ideas Sinz, going to quote one particular bit that I disagree strongly with though:

 

''I think this could have potential because it would encourage prolonged PVP. So often I've seen people get raided and flat out quit. PVP is player vs player, it's about the battle, not the griefing and not destroying competition. With a feature like this players can get back on their feet faster after being raided and the action can begin again sooner without having to start from scratch. Players would be more likely to make adjustments to their build based on each defeat and learn how to combat player raids faster with a feature like this.''

 

People play pvp for a variety of reasons, i know pve players who play pvp just for the added threat even though they dont go looking for pvp and actively avoid it, there are loads of reasons for people to play pvp but one big one is definately to raid and steal someone elses stuff. I get that you dont like that aspect and you're correct that some people cant take it but there are servers out there with settings to suit them (invul claims is the main one). Its good to see the different opinions but lets not fall into the trap of 'this is what everyone thinks because i think it' which I am guilty of myself sometimes.

 

Base raiding, griefing and even in some rare cases making people quit are all parts of the pvp game, I know teams that have a grudge with another team and have killed and raided them specifically to get them off the server, I also know plenty of cases where multiple people have teamed up to kill and raid a team of griefers to remove THEM from the server in revenge! karma at work

 

Different reasons for different people is all I am saying.

 

I think you kinda got the wrong idea about what I was meaning.

When I refer to base greifing I mean completely destroying the entire base.

I love raiding and having people attempt to raid my base too, but I hate logging in to find no base at all.

But the idea that you quoted was my most ambitious and crazy idea and I haven't thought out all the implications of it. One thing is for sure though, as I said, if that idea was to be added, it would defiantly need game settings so people could adjust or disable it to suit there preferences.

[Blazer777]

i agree with you sy tarn the one thing old school pvpers were whining about was they couldnt hear a guy in his base or jumping from 5KM away anymore and you could maybe hear a sniper rifle from 2KM away but thats pushing the limits

[Sinz]

In regards to PvP servers needing to be wiped often to level the playing field because the gap in player progression stops new player traffic and the gap in player progression isn't well suited to PvP:

 

Another thing that people are going to have different opinions to. But I still want to discuss a solution, I don't want to dispute weather or not it should be in the game because, once again, this can be a game setting that people can adjust to suit their preferences.

 

I do think the gap between a new player and a level 200 player with a 100 IG day base is an issue with PvP and I think it would be hard to balance without negatively effecting PvE.

I like the progression and I like the premise of having to work my way up to the level of high level players to compete or being the high level player.

 

But in the situation where high level players actively hunt and try to force rage quit on low level players, I think there needs to be something to balance out fairness just a little, obviously high level players should still have an advantage.

 

Earlier in the thread someone suggested one shot kills as a solution to this, that may be an option and I think it should be made available in game settings as I mentioned before in my other comment but it's not how I would want to play PvP in 7DTD so I think there should be more solutions.

 

One step towards giving newbs a chance against tyrants could be scaling XP earned from player kills. The higher level the player is, the more XP they are worth. And bonus scaling XP for how many days that player has survived.

If a level 20 kills a level 200 that hasn't died in 200 days, they deserve a good payout, they've earned it.

And extra XP for killing players with bounties and bad reputation.

 

I'm sure that some people out there would rather the level progression turned off completely for PvP but I'm against that idea.

 

A crazy idea, not one I'd use but maybe someone might like it, a configurable game setting that increases the level of a first time joining player based on the in game day count. This idea sounds like a balancing nightmare, I don't know if it would play well or not, I think it would be best to play test it.

[Sinz]

Okay, so after reading the few pages on this thread i have come to the conclusion that most everyone is over complicating this.

 

THB everyone knows that PVP needs some love, however most of the things i've seen mentioned wouldn't really help and not mess with PVE or the rest of the game at all. so. i've had a standpoint about this. fixing things that make the game work better and inadvertently fix pvp in the process.

 

I agree with your standpoint Sy Tarn and I agree with the following part of your comment that I haven't quoted.

But I don't think most of the things mentioned here would negatively impact PvE.

There are defiantly some suggestions here that would negatively effect PvE, and I'm against that, but I think there are few of them and that they can safely be ignored because they're not popular with everyone else.

Where as the ideas you expanded on in the rest of your comment have been reposed here multiple times, and I think that's a good thing, kinda like a voting system.

 

I do agree that some people are over complicating their suggestions a bit.

I think we just need to put our ideas forward as simply as possible without going into too much detail about exact values and details.

I trust TFP with the balancing of any ideas from here that they choose to use. Once it's in the game I think we can then talk about specific details and values and suggest re-balancing where it's needed.

 

I think for now we just need to express what ideas everyone agrees on without over complicating how the idea is implemented.

I think that's going to be most useful and constructive to TFP.

[Guppycur]

I like the idea of higher level players being worth more xp... That would have some good repercussions imo...

 

They need a benefit, too... Maybe a hardening or expansion of their claim? I dunno, I'm torn because I dislike lcb's but also see the desire for them.

[Dimpy]

I may be missing sarcasm here although my radar is normally good. How exactly would you place blocks on claimed land..?

 

Yeah, you can't do that. I was pointing out that explosive charges exist, not that it's possible to use them right on claimed land. I can see how that would be confusing since we are talking about PvP.

[SnowDog1942]

I think it needs a balanced & special game mode with objectives, . Right now its a haphazard mess & whoever has more hours on a server is king. Games need to be short and balanced.

[Dimpy]

I think it needs a balanced & special game mode with objectives, . Right now its a haphazard mess & whoever having more hours on a server is king. Games need to be short and balanced.

 

Sounds like a battle royale gamemode.

[Sy Tarn]

In regards to PvP servers needing to be wiped often to level the playing field because the gap in player progression stops new player traffic and the gap in player progression isn't well suited to PvP:

 

agreed my only worry would be the payout would be too high for a low level player essentially making it the only way to speed level at low levels. not saying a bad idea but not something thats too OP

[Sy Tarn]

I agree with your standpoint Sy Tarn and I agree with the following part of your comment that I haven't quoted.

But I don't think most of the things mentioned here would negatively impact PvE.

There are defiantly some suggestions here that would negatively effect PvE, and I'm against that, but I think there are few of them and that they can safely be ignored because they're not popular with everyone else.

Where as the ideas you expanded on in the rest of your comment have been reposed here multiple times, and I think that's a good thing, kinda like a voting system.

 

I do agree that some people are over complicating their suggestions a bit.

I think we just need to put our ideas forward as simply as possible without going into too much detail about exact values and details.

I trust TFP with the balancing of any ideas from here that they choose to use. Once it's in the game I think we can then talk about specific details and values and suggest re-balancing where it's needed.

 

I think for now we just need to express what ideas everyone agrees on without over complicating how the idea is implemented.

I think that's going to be most useful and constructive to TFP.

 

with my standpoint, MM will feel better about working on PVP if he doesn't feel like we only want him to ruin his vision to make it more like fortnite (which is dumb) 7 days is better as it is. and as long as we keep the list short and sweet that doesn't affect the game on a large scale meaning completely CHANGING something about the game completely. and as long as MM doesn't feel like we just want to rip his dreams to shreds he'll be more giving.

 

so thanks for agreeing sinz....

 

remember keep it simple folks and just try to put ideas your getting from other games in the trash and focus what the game 7 days needs

[Sy Tarn]

I think it needs a balanced & special game mode with objectives, . Right now its a haphazard mess & whoever has more hours on a server is king. Games need to be short and balanced.

 

actually that is completely not true. there was a point i would join random servers and dominate people who were over 80 levels higher then me with 60 hours on the server already. even when me and my admin group would wipe i wouldn't play for a couple weeks just so people would get ahead of me just so i had a challenge. anyways like i stated in my previous point if you want short and sweet pvp like your saying go play fortnite. this kinda stuff is what ticked MM off whenever people talked about pvp changes.

 

besides quests are obj. there are quests in the game....which are obj........so basically your asking for a short attention span game of 7 days.......MM is lifting weights cursing your name for that comment rn lol

[SnowDog1942]

Sounds like a battle royale gamemode.

 

That is one of many types of game mode possibiities. It just needs something....anything... not just complete randomness with no purpose.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

actually that is completely not true. there was a point i would join random servers and dominate people who were over 80 levels higher then me with 60 hours on the server already. even when me and my admin group would wipe i wouldn't play for a couple weeks just so people would get ahead of me just so i had a challenge. anyways like i stated in my previous point if you want short and sweet pvp like your saying go play fortnite. this kinda stuff is what ticked MM off whenever people talked about pvp changes.

 

I agree with the go play another game for pvp logic but its not for this thread

[Sy Tarn]

That is one of many types of game mode possibiities. It just needs something....anything... not just complete randomness with no purpose.

 

well you are kinda missing the fact that in a zombie apocalypse. which is what this game is, there really is no obj. there is simply survive. the whole concept of a zombie apocalypse is randomness with no purpose, i mean didn't you watch the walking dead? they went on a quest that didn't go anywhere it was absolutely foolish and got peeps killed. my point is asking for these things is asking to destroy the entire meaning of a zombie apocalypse.

 

anyways we better stop arguing so we don't get in trouble.

[SnowDog1942]

well you are kinda missing the fact that in a zombie apocalypse. which is what this game is, there really is no obj. there is simply survive. the whole concept of a zombie apocalypse is randomness with no purpose, i mean didn't you watch the walking dead? they went on a quest that didn't go anywhere it was absolutely foolish and got peeps killed. my point is asking for these things is asking to destroy the entire meaning of a zombie apocalypse.

 

anyways we better stop arguing so we don't get in trouble.

 

Its okay to disagree on topic. I would like a pvp game mode with purpose. You dont, and thats fine to. Im a battlefield pvp guy, i like objectives and balance.

[Sy Tarn]

Its okay to disagree on topic. I would like a pvp game mode with purpose. You dont, and thats fine to. Im a battlefield pvp guy, i like objectives and balance.

 

i hope you see the irony of what you just said.

[Poojam]

i agree with you sy tarn the one thing old school pvpers were whining about was they couldnt hear a guy in his base or jumping from 5KM away anymore and you could maybe hear a sniper rifle from 2KM away but thats pushing the limits

 

You could hear weapons and a forge tinking from 8km away. Yes I loved it, because I could hunt people down and find bases.

 

The sound distance currently is more like 500 meters for a weapon, and 300 meters for an auger. It's gone too far the other direction and players behave differently now. There's almost no threat to being discovered unless you are within eyesight of someone, and that's the part I don't like. I'm asking it to be increased to more of a middle ground between those values for certain items (weapons/power tools but not footsteps or jumping ofc) so the threat of being discovered is prevalent again.

 

And btw, this could be implemented with essentially no effect on PVE if zombies aren't triggered by sound. I admit, I'm not exactly sure how the aggro works. I was thinking it was based on heat, but not sure if sound is a component that would require tweaking.

[SnowDog1942]

i hope you see the irony of what you just said.

 

Balance? Yea its not perfect every game but atleast there is an attempt.

[Sy Tarn]

You could hear weapons and a forge tinking from 8km away. Yes I loved it, because I could hunt people down and find bases.

 

The sound distance currently is more like 500 meters for a weapon, and 300 meters for an auger. It's gone too far the other direction and players behave differently now. There's almost no threat to being discovered unless you are within eyesight of someone, and that's the part I don't like. I'm asking it to be increased to more of a middle ground between those values for certain items (weapons/power tools but not footsteps or jumping ofc) so the threat of being discovered is prevalent again.

 

ya it was easy. hence the problem. it shouldn't be that easy. using actual tracking skills is fun and challenging. we shouldn't really be able to hear things that far, at all especially forges under ground because it takes away the hiding factor which is unfair for the hider. things and especially people. noise shouldn't completely give you away its immersion breaking.

 

just to prove my point when your tracking an underground base there's a couple of things to look for, dug clay deposits, lack of trees where there should be. recently collected stuff, farms. there are so many things to look for you shouldn't be reliant on sound alone, its kind of immersion breaking.

oh and lets not forget LCB's if you hit the ground and it pings there's a base lol. anyways a player shouoldn't be dammed just because you heard his auger or forges from across the map.

[Poojam]

One shot kills actually levels the playing field a great deal. You used to be able to one-shot an armored player with a well placed crossbow bolt to the dome - even with armor. This was accomplished by stalking them and catching them by surprise, if you could. I used to love being able to hop on a server and catch some well geared guy by surprise and getting a set of armor and high level weapon quickly.

 

As it stands now, you have almost no shot at killing a high level player that is wearing armor if you're low level. You can't find any good guns because your scavenging stinks, and if you attack just about anyone with a low level weapon - it doesn't do enough damage fast enough. The TTK (time to kill) is out of whack, because even a player with slow reaction speed can spin on you, change weapons, and hit you with a couple body shots from their ak and you lose.

[Sy Tarn]

One shot kills actually levels the playing field a great deal. You used to be able to one-shot an armored player with a well placed crossbow bolt to the dome - even with armor. This was accomplished by stalking them and catching them by surprise, if you could. I used to love being able to hop on a server and catch some well geared guy by surprise and getting a set of armor and high level weapon quickly.

 

As it stands now, you have almost no shot at killing a high level player that is wearing armor if you're low level. You can't find any good guns because your scavenging stinks, and if you attack just about anyone with a low level weapon - it doesn't do enough damage fast enough. The TTK (time to kill) is out of whack, because even a player with slow reaction speed can spin on you, change weapons, and hit you with a couple body shots from their ak and you lose.

 

so the moral of the story is kiddos.....if your a low level player......avoid high level players until you get good gear.

 

again this really sounds like a fortnite complaint. everyone wants instant gratification. you don't just go after a well organized group in a zombie apocalypse and expect to survive.

[Poojam]

I get the impression that you don't travel much or are not understanding me.

 

Sound is an actual tracking skill in my toolbag...that is fun and challenging so long as you can actually hear somebody. If you hear someone shoot a gun from a couple k away, you're not guaranteed that you know the distance they are and that they will still be there by the time you get there. It's not a sure thing, as you seem to insinuate.

 

I'm advocating for the sound distance to be adjusted to be able to hear a minibike, power tool, or weapon from approximately 2km away. That is not "across the map", and not as it was originally set (which I admit was too much). 2km is a little over 1 mile, and is quite realistic for a handgun or loud power tool like an auger - maybe even a little low. If you've ever been hunting, you can easily hear a rifle shot from several miles away.

[Poojam]

You also don't get shot in the middle of the head with any sort of gun or crossbow and survive in a zombie apocalypse.

 

Even worse logic is that the shot from my 250 quality gun does significantly less damage than the other guy's 250 quality gun, because he has points in pistol skill.

 

I simply can't comprehend your arguments here.

[Sy Tarn]

I get the impression that you don't travel much or are not understanding me.

 

Sound is an actual tracking skill in my toolbag...that is fun and challenging so long as you can actually hear somebody. If you hear someone shoot a gun from a couple k away, you're not guaranteed that you know the distance they are and that they will still be there by the time you get there. It's not a sure thing, as you seem to insinuate.

 

I'm advocating for the sound distance to be adjusted to be able to hear a minibike, power tool, or weapon from approximately 2km away. That is not "across the map", and not as it was originally set (which I admit was too much). 2km is a little over 1 mile, and is quite realistic for a handgun or loud power tool like an auger - maybe even a little low. If you've ever been hunting, you can easily hear a rifle shot from several miles away.

 

those specific things aren't my problem. my problem is hearing forges inside forts or under ground etc. and gun shots in forests reverberate so you can never know what direction it came from. during the day sound is dampened sounds at night go further. i mean sure certain sounds are good to keep. however the scaling is important here. the whole map is going to be 8k. sounds traveling 2k is 1/4 of the map which for the sake of scaling for a video game is way too much. believe me i know how to track, and hunt. really well. however i'm not saying sound shouldn't be a tracking factor but it is too much currently and 2k is too much for the game this isn't real life its a video game.

 

and my argument is...ITS A VIDEO GAME! progression in real life isn't the same as progression IRL naturally in any video game a newbie isn't going to be as good as an older player. this isn't wow you can't pay to be an instant lvl 100 so you can be on the same level as everyone else.

[Poojam]

..... however i'm not saying sound shouldn't be a tracking factor but it is too much currently and 2k is too much for the game this isn't real life its a video game.

 

and my argument is...ITS A VIDEO GAME! progression in real life isn't the same as progression IRL naturally in any video game as newbie isn't going to be as good as an older player. this isn't wow you can't pay to be an instant lvl 100 so you can be on the same level as everyone else.

 

Too much currently? You almost can't hear a gunshot from someone as it stands now unless you can just about see them - effectively greatly reducing the risk of getting surprised and making it very difficult to find people to encounter in the world. This thread was ways to make PVP better. How does making it harder to find people encourage more PVP interaction?

 

The reverse is true regarding progression. The problem with PVP today is that a high level player with gear has an effective force multiplier of somewhere around 2-3. So long as you put in the hours, you're at a great advantage to lower level players. It's designed this way because of how they wanted to reward progression and offer additional resistance to zombies. They didn't much consider the aspect of low level players going up against high level players and what effect that might have by disincentivizing new players from playing on PVP servers. It's quite discouraging to hop on a server, find a medicore pistol, and blast someone not paying attention twice in the head and they jump, spin around, switch weapons, take a smoke, and then hit you twice in the torso with an ak and kill you. That's not good PVP. That's gimping FPS skill in favor of hours played. The sum of the damage resistance and force applied from perks/skills and quality of the weapon should not result in an effective force multiplier of more than 1.5 or so. And well placed critical head shots should be extremely potent or completely lethal depending on the weapon used.