Rebalancing A17?

[The Batman]

Hello,

 

Did some testing and this was what I came up with.

 

I was wondering how you plan or have balanced turrets // blade traps // dart traps // electric fences.

And zombie damage vs blocks for Alpha 17.

 

>Dart traps were tested in a corridor with | W | X | W | W= wall X = empty space

>One dart trap at 1 block high and one at 2 blocks high.

>base blocks were reinforced concrete.

 

Has anything been done to improve on trap --> zombie collision?

 

Dart trap kill most regular zombies within 10-20 hits. Because most shots are misses, even in a confined corridor because the zombies hug the wall and their hitbox hides in the said wall for half of it. Special / radiated or feral zombies however take 50+ hits and I think radiated ferals never die because their regen > dart damage. Is this intended?

 

Radiated feral wight hits for 250 hp each hit. With reinforced concrete having a total of 9000hp They break it within 30-40 seconds. Are these numbers getting tweaked or are you content with them?

 

During endgame waves of radiated ferals + Cops + explosion from said cops. The block damage is way too high. They obliterate anything lower than steel within seconds.

 

It would really help if the zombie --> Block attack speed would be a lot lower than how fast zombies hit players. Alas, no one replied to my questions about attack speed so far. If you play on the harder difficulties with 16+ zombies on horde night, they wreck through concrete+ blocks too fast imo.

 

- Thoughts on giving electric fences a damage over time (small) along with the stun?

- Dart traps to shoot slower but more damage?

- Reducing zombie attack speed vs blocks?

 

 

EDIT: Plans to reduce the number of repair hits it takes to repair reinforced concrete // steel ?

Batman,

[eidobunny]

I think the dart traps should consume 1 dart and shoot 5 darts, one in the center and four in the corners. Either that or consume 5 darts but increase the dart recipe yield x5.

 

I found that darts were worth jack ♥♥♥♥ and you'll do better damage just using electric fences tbh. So yeah the dart traps definitely could use a buff.

[krytek]

You can literally survive any feral horde with a Sledge hammer and a Sniper rifle on a 3x3x3 concrete block structure. I dont think we need to nerf zombies.

[The Batman]

I think the dart traps should consume 1 dart and shoot 5 darts, one in the center and four in the corners. Either that or consume 5 darts but increase the dart recipe yield x5.

 

I found that darts were worth jack ♥♥♥♥ and you'll do better damage just using electric fences tbh. So yeah the dart traps definitely could use a buff.

 

Yeah I'm testing atm, and will probably only use electric fences + shotgun turret for entire base defence. Dart and blade traps require too much repairs.

[Reth]

Radiated feral wight hits for 250 hp each hit. With reinforced concrete having a total of 9000hp They break it within 30-40 seconds. Are these numbers getting tweaked or are you content with them?

 

During endgame waves of radiated ferals + Cops + explosion from said cops. The block damage is way too high. They obliterate anything lower than steel within seconds.

 

It would really help if the zombie --> Block attack speed would be a lot lower than how fast zombies hit players. Alas, no one replied to my questions about attack speed so far. If you play on the harder difficulties with 16+ zombies on horde night, they wreck through concrete+ blocks too fast imo.

 

IMHO, zombie damage vs concrete and steel makes no sense - it is unreasonably high. I cringe every time I see them go through end game reinforced walls like they do. But I accept that there is no easy way to reduce the damage and still keep the game challenging at the same time.

 

My personal preference would be to have something like World War Z - wall climbing scene. But I am not holding my breath.

[The Batman]

 

My personal preference would be to have something like World War Z - wall climbing scene. But I am not holding my breath.

 

Actually.... they used to do that some alphas ago.. They would climb on top of the gore blocks...

 

Alpha.... something, but yeah there's no easy way to overcome this problem : /

[eidobunny]

Yeah I'm testing atm, and will probably only use electric fences + shotgun turret for entire base defence. Dart and blade traps require too much repairs.

 

Blade traps are way better than darts. I did some creative mode testing when A16 dropped and a wall of dart traps did nothing to a 7th night horde. Electric fences combined with blade traps worked really well, and of course turrets are the best (but expensive)

 

I'd rather use electric fences and blade traps for most of my defenses

 

It doesn't make any sense to me that defenses that do non-consumable damage (electric fences in particular since the posts can be hidden behind walls) are vastly superior to dart traps which deal consumable damage and have to be constantly refilled. If it worked on Factorio rules where you could automatically smelt darts into the trap then they would be kind of okay.

[Whorhay]

Electric fences do have a small damage over time debuff, it works on both players and zombies.

[GODif]

Actually.... they used to do that some alphas ago.. They would climb on top of the gore blocks...

 

Alpha.... something, but yeah there's no easy way to overcome this problem : /

 

They were doing this back in alpha 1

[Vomkat]

- Reducing zombie attack speed vs blocks?

,

Just dig down a couple blocks and you never have to worry about it.

[Roland]

Just dig down a couple blocks and you never have to worry about it.

 

This strategy has about another month’s worth of life to it.

[The Batman]

They were doing this back in alpha 1

 

Flying bloodmoon horde? Yikes!

[Vomkat]

I accept that there is no easy way to reduce the damage and still keep the game challenging at the same time.

I don't think you need to be especially creative to resolve this. The game should make steel walls into steel walls, zombies shouldn't be able to get through. They should make it much harder to craft steel, but ultimately anyone should be able to make a steel box which is invulnerable. However, food and water should be more of an issue.

 

The game needs to move away from 'tower defense' and focus on 'survival'. Yes, you can create a safe place to hide, but the challenge should be generated by the fact you will need to leave your base.

 

This game has the same issue as Minecraft. You have an infinite world to explore, and absolutely no reason to do so, outside of your own curiosity. The search for food and water needs to become the focus.

[Hazeree]

Hello,

 

Did some testing and this was what I came up with.

 

I was wondering how you plan or have balanced turrets // blade traps // dart traps // electric fences.

And zombie damage vs blocks for Alpha 17.

 

>Dart traps were tested in a corridor with | W | X | W | W= wall X = empty space

>One dart trap at 1 block high and one at 2 blocks high.

>base blocks were reinforced concrete.

 

Has anything been done to improve on trap --> zombie collision?

 

Dart trap kill most regular zombies within 10-20 hits. Because most shots are misses, even in a confined corridor because the zombies hug the wall and their hitbox hides in the said wall for half of it. Special / radiated or feral zombies however take 50+ hits and I think radiated ferals never die because their regen > dart damage. Is this intended?

 

Radiated feral wight hits for 250 hp each hit. With reinforced concrete having a total of 9000hp They break it within 30-40 seconds. Are these numbers getting tweaked or are you content with them?

 

During endgame waves of radiated ferals + Cops + explosion from said cops. The block damage is way too high. They obliterate anything lower than steel within seconds.

 

It would really help if the zombie --> Block attack speed would be a lot lower than how fast zombies hit players. Alas, no one replied to my questions about attack speed so far. If you play on the harder difficulties with 16+ zombies on horde night, they wreck through concrete+ blocks too fast imo.

 

- Thoughts on giving electric fences a damage over time (small) along with the stun?

- Dart traps to shoot slower but more damage?

- Reducing zombie attack speed vs blocks?

 

 

EDIT: Plans to reduce the number of repair hits it takes to repair reinforced concrete // steel ?

Batman,

 

My suggestion is to make sure your horde defense does not allow zombies to simply beat on your walls with impunity. I will give you my take on the current A16.4 'end-game' defense:

 

I always make a 7th night defense base that is not where I do business throughout the week. Its only for horde night. This base is small enough and shaped (through many trial and error) to funnel the zombies such that the defenses are as efficient as possible. These defenses are not passive. From vanilla to mods, I have come to use the most reliable combination of electric fences across blade traps, shotgun turrets around the outer edges, with a 4-block deep wall of wood spikes. Blade traps are actually consumable since they take a small amount of damage for the damage they dish out. Those consumables are mechanical and electrical parts. DIY perk is a must. Shotgun turrets are a must to soften the cops before they reach the blades. And shotgun shells are so much easier since they do not depend on the hard to get brass. Just farm lead, nitrate, and coal. And the wood spikes are simply there, well reasons. I like having that extra amount of loot outside the active defenses. Its like a little buffer at the start. And of course, you should be actively killing non-stop with explosive crossbow bolts. Cops are weak to explosive bolts.

 

This is gamestage 3000+ strategy.

 

When we go to A17, I will have a blast finding new methods to try. For me, its about experimenting, creating goals and solutions to them. When they change alphas, they change the rules and hence keep the challenge going.

 

I am not try to tell you how you should play, just my solutions to what you posted. It would not be much of a game if there was any wall the zeds could not eventually break through, so the solution should be to actively protect your walls (long enough) before they penetrate. And dart traps are inefficient. My guess is that the cost (in iron) for the amount of darts you could go through in a horde night to effectively repel the horde would cost more than the iron/elec/mech parts to keep repairing the blade traps. You just need a good design where you can keep repairing.

[The Batman]

If you place enough shotgun turrets you can take down 5000 zombies at once ^^

 

But still balance is needed, no matter what base design you have.

 

But since A17 hasn't dropped yet. I can only hope that some of the balance issues have improved.

[Vedui]

I've found dart traps extremely useful if set up properly. A couple of dart traps firing in front of a wall, with electric fences to stun ,can take out even radiated zombies very fast.

 

With a damage of 67/2, firing twice a second, over say 10 seconds that's a nice 670 damage, or enough to take out a few normal zombies. Put 2, or 4, and you're putting out thousands of damage over the same period. Greater rad regen is just 80/3secs, which is far less than the 67x3 the dart traps put out, so even 1 dart trap would take a radiated zombie out.

 

Did a horde base, and tested it out at max GS with 8 concurrent zombies (default) and fence+dual dart traps pretty much took care of everything.

 

-->

 

Overall I wish:

 

1) Dart traps had an upgrade path, say anti-rad zombie darts that prevent healing.

2) Blade traps have a steel upgrade path to push the blade hp from 2k to maybe 6-8k. Right now esp with cop explosions they just get wasted really fast.

 

Block damage from explosions need to be fixed though. Often things like plates, wedges etc do not stop blasts, destroying things behind. This even more so if the zombie has glitched "into" the block, and damage is being dealt within the next ones behind it.

 

[Scyris]

I don't think you need to be especially creative to resolve this. The game should make steel walls into steel walls, zombies shouldn't be able to get through. They should make it much harder to craft steel, but ultimately anyone should be able to make a steel box which is invulnerable. However, food and water should be more of an issue.

 

The game needs to move away from 'tower defense' and focus on 'survival'. Yes, you can create a safe place to hide, but the challenge should be generated by the fact you will need to leave your base.

 

This game has the same issue as Minecraft. You have an infinite world to explore, and absolutely no reason to do so, outside of your own curiosity. The search for food and water needs to become the focus.

 

Yeah, I kinda find it funny seeing zombies punch thru concrete and steel, I mean you ever try to punch them? you'd destroy your hand on the first punch. I agree with it switching from tower defense to survival myself, as the food/water issue is pretty much a non-issue before day 2 even hits in a16.4. I understand its a balance thing though as it is supposed to be a tower defense survival game. If the zombies couldn't break in, the whole tower defense part would be pointless.

 

Mind you, I bascally never die to the 7 day hordes, as its very easy to plan for them when you know its coming. What has killed me though has been wandering hordes that I didn't pay enough attention to, and got stunned by the first zombie due to bad luck. They can be silent like ninja's at times.

 

Which reminds me, I wish zombies wouldn't screech and such unless they actually see you, its annoying having zombies making a ton of noise screaming and such when they are 1-2 floors above you. Sure, let them bust blocks, but don't start the screeching till they actually see you.