"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Alpha anymore."

[Guest]

Or: like a lot of "early access" titles, this game has stretched the limits of what "alpha" means way beyond any useful definition. So many games out there seem to be stuck in some kind of permanent testing phase, with the actual finished, fleshed out product always a little beyond the horizon.

 

I don't mind early access in general, since I like the interaction between consumers and developers, but I think both of them need to be honest and practical about this new reality. Ironically, the developers of the game that kicked off the whole early access trend seem to understand this better than most. Mojang isn't working under the assumption that Minecraft will ever be finished. They did have a 1.0 release a few years back, but rather than being an end point, it signaled a shift in development focus: instead of adding features and worrying about balance and bugs later, they've moved towards adding more or less coherent sets of features and optimizing them (both bug- and balance-wise) straight away, before starting work on the next update.

 

In my humble opinion, the Pimps come across as unfocused and unsure of the future of their own game. I understand their reluctance to communicate clear goals and road maps up to a point, what with the general sense of entitlement among gaming audiences, but I think it's a bit naive to just say "it's done when it's done", when for so many games out there, that basically turned out to mean "it'll never be done".

With A16 on the horizon, I think it's time for the Pimps to start thinking about optimizing/polishing what they have, before coming up with new features to be added while a lot of the basic systems aren't working properly yet. Personally, I could do without bandits and electricity for a while, if it means trying to hit zombies spinning in one place or weather being pointless coat-on/off-micromanagement will finally be dealt with. Just to name a few examples of stuff that's hampering my enjoyment of the game.

 

And just in case people feel the need to point it out: yes, I have enjoyed a great many hours of this game already and in terms of fun per € it has already been a good investment. But it was always under the assumption that the many problems in the game would be dealt with in the foreseeable future, and after a few years of hearing "we're in alpha", I'm starting to doubt that will actually happen before everyone just quietly moves on to other titles out there. And that would be a huge waste for a game that has so much potential. And in time it would be bad for the Fun Pimps too, since working on 7DtD infinitely isn't going to work, and people won't be as enthusiastic about new projects when the old ones are so obviously not finished.

 

Anyhow, that was a bit more text than I intended, but in short I hope that the Pimps are working on this and that people will stop using "we're in alpha" to explain away obvious shortcomings of a title that has the player base and commercial succes of a lot of actually finished titles out there.

[Kurogo]

Player base and commercial success are irrelevant to a title being alpha or not. It's more of an indication of a successful presentation and implementation of said title. Just as threads about alpha taking too long are an indication of impatience or naivetè.

 

TFP have a clear road map, and it's been available for anyone to see long before 7DTD was released on Steam. They've stated that it won't be out of Alpha until the features on that roadmap have been implemented, and each update we get brings one more feature from that list into the game. Plenty of people who'll post after me will point out why bug fixing and optimization before being feature complete is a poor choice, so I'll skip all that and jump straight to what really matters: they promised those of us that bought the game early certain features. You may not care about some of those features, but you're easily outnumbered, especially in regards to NPCs.

 

If the bugs and poor optimizations are keeping you from enjoying the game right now, play a different [finished] game and come back when they're done. If you expect them to cut the features short just for optimization though, you're going to be outvoted.

[Dordanov]

Personally I don't care whether or not they call it early access, Alpha X, version 1.X, free patches, free DLC or whatever.

 

For all I care the pimps can keep doing what they are doing currently for many years to come. 7D2D is by far my favourite game currently, and seeing a motivated and enthousiastic development team at work putting in more and more features that make the game better with every update is great.

 

Sure beats some of those games that get officially released as a final product, riddled with bugs and lacking some substantial content and getting harldy any love after release.

 

Sometimes early access is a bad thing, but in this case I love being able to be part of the development process by testing out the new features, providing feedback and suggestions and slowly see the game become better and better because of it.

 

Ofcourse that's just my personal opinion

[Bimbie]

I'm not sure I understand.

You want the game to be out of Alpha,

but you want them to not stop working on stuff you find not ready for release?

 

Its a Work In Progress clearly labeled Alpha.

They have problems that need to be fixed before release. They need to deal with UndergroundBases before release. They need to add Bandits & Electricity before release. They need to optimize a ton of code before release. They need player feedback on the crazy 5min Jacket Minigame.

Yeah, they are working on it.

They will keep working on the stuff they need to get done before release... before they release retail v1.0 .

 

Unlike "No Mans Sky",

FunPimps aint charging $60 for an unfinished release- 7d2d a reasonable price playable Alpha test... not even Beta yet.

I for one am glad they are working to have teh game be complete,

rather than release it and charge another $10 for Electricity DLC later

 

I just hope the electric system they use is RF compatible so modders can port over parts of Direwolf20 modpack

... BC Quarry & TinkerTools in the Navezgane!

[Roland]

Thanks for the feedback.

[Gas]

EA and Alpha are words thrown around so much they don't really have any meaning to me anymore. Call it EA/Alpha/Beta/Release/In development, whatever, it's a game in my library that I play.

 

When I'm having fun with the game, I can chalk up bugs, goofy AI or whatever flaw I'm experiencing to "It's in Alpha! I'm sure it will be fixed eventually!"

 

Conversely, when I'm not having fun with the game I pretty regularly say "♥♥♥♥ this Alpha bull♥♥♥♥! Fix the damn game!!"

 

Lately, I'm not really having much fun with the game in vanilla. So I cheat. I level myself up to 200 and max out the skills I want, give myself a bunch of TNT and proceed to crash me and my co-op buddy's computer by tunneling under a three story building and blowing it up from bedrock to the surface. No, I'm not playing the game as intended, but I'm having a blast and not being bummed out by "Alpha" and all the trappings that go with that.

 

The variable is me. Not the game. Yeah there's frustrating aspects to EA/Alpha, but either I can accept it and play/don't play or not accept it and be frustrated. Don't get me wrong, I get tired of hearing it too, but it is what it is and it will be done when it's done.

[Guest]

Player base and commercial success are irrelevant to a title being alpha or not. It's more of an indication of a successful presentation and implementation of said title. Just as threads about alpha taking too long are an indication of impatience or naivetè.

 

You just had to work in that personal jab there, huh? But okay. I'm not just saying "alpha takes too long", I'm trying to explain why I think "alpha" has lost its meaning, or at least changed from "small group of people testing early game systems" to "semi-permanent public testing of the whole game". And I'm trying to explain how I think this new reality should be approached.

 

TFP have a clear road map, and it's been available for anyone to see long before 7DTD was released on Steam. They've stated that it won't be out of Alpha until the features on that roadmap have been implemented, and each update we get brings one more feature from that list into the game. Plenty of people who'll post after me will point out why bug fixing and optimization before being feature complete is a poor choice, so I'll skip all that and jump straight to what really matters: they promised those of us that bought the game early certain features. You may not care about some of those features, but you're easily outnumbered, especially in regards to NPCs.

 

I never said I don't care about certain features, and I'm not arguing against any feature either, so I don't see why I should be "outnumbered" on anything. My point is that I think there's merit to putting more effort into optimizing and making sure game systems are working in harmony before moving on and adding more. I also gave an example of a developer that successfully does this. I know not everyone has to work like Mojang, but their enduring success isn't something that came out of thin air, and it might be worthwhile to take note of it.

 

As far as the roadmap is concerned, if you're talking about the (stretch) goals of the original kickstarter, it's obvious that reality has overtaken the map for some time now. Features that were to be implemented "after release" are already in, while stuff that should've been in has been postponed seemingly indefinitely.

Or is there a roadmap I'm not aware of? By the way, I'm not trying to scold the Pimps for veering off the path, I'm just asking them to consider the current course and to wonder whether it's a good idea to continue it.

 

If the bugs and poor optimizations are keeping you from enjoying the game right now, play a different [finished] game and come back when they're done.

 

I already do this. At least, I come back for new updates. But each time I'm more disappointed that so much of the base mechanics just aren't working well, and I'm starting to fear that they'll never be addressed in favor of new features. Little has been done to assuage that fear.

 

If you expect them to cut the features short just for optimization though, you're going to be outvoted.

 

Again, I never asked for specific features to be put in or left out, so no need for fictional voting contests. I'm just arguing that I think 7DtD runs the risk of being in permanent alpha state until the Pimps realize there's just too much to fix and lose interest in, and/or control over the project. It's happened to other titles, it would be a shame if it happened to 7 Days to Die.

One way I think this could be avoided is to have a development "pause" where new features are pushed back and the team focuses on working out and optimizing the current systems. When that is done, there will be a solid foundation on which to add new functionality, provided the Pimps are still interested in working on the project by then and new cash keeps flowing in to support them doing so.

[DoucheVader]

Or: like a lot of "early access" titles, this game has stretched the limits of what "alpha" means way beyond any useful definition. So many games out there seem to be stuck in some kind of permanent testing phase, with the actual finished, fleshed out product always a little beyond the horizon.

 

Well it follows the definition of Alpha to a T.

 

Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss. Alpha software may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version. In general, external availability of alpha software is uncommon in proprietary software, while open source software often has publicly available alpha versions. The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete.

[Guest]

And to generally respond to a few other: I realize people have different strategies for dealing with the state of the game, which is fine of course. Mine is to use the tools given to me (this forum) to voice my opinion, and yes, also frustration. I care, sue me

 

So let's focus on the point I'm trying to make and not resort to variations on the "deal with it" response, okay? I'm an adult, I'll be fine whether or not the Pimps listen to me. I just hope that they have a more coherent strategy than "let's keep adding stuff until the game is somehow finished, even though we have no idea of what that actually means". Maybe they do, but then it would be nice to have that communicated a little better.

[Guest]

Well it follows the definition of Alpha to a T.

 

Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss. Alpha software may not contain all of the features that are planned for the final version. In general, external availability of alpha software is uncommon in proprietary software, while open source software often has publicly available alpha versions. The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software. At this time, the software is said to be feature complete.

 

I think the external availability of 7DtD actually means that it doesn't follow the definition. Hence my mention of the large player base earlier. Also, part of my point is that alpha status is kind of pointless if there's no solid idea of when the software will be feature complete (edit: I mean what constitutes feature complete, not asking for specific timelines). "When it's done" is kind of a circular argument, no?

[DoucheVader]

In my humble opinion, the Pimps come across as unfocused and unsure of the future of their own game. I understand their reluctance to communicate clear goals and road maps up to a point, what with the general sense of entitlement among gaming audiences, but I think it's a bit naive to just say "it's done when it's done", when for so many games out there, that basically turned out to mean "it'll never be done".

With A16 on the horizon, I think it's time for the Pimps to start thinking about optimizing/polishing what they have, before coming up with new features to be added while a lot of the basic systems aren't working properly yet. Personally, I could do without bandits and electricity for a while, if it means trying to hit zombies spinning in one place or weather being pointless coat-on/off-micromanagement will finally be dealt with. Just to name a few examples of stuff that's hampering my enjoyment of the game.

 

I don't have that feeling from TFP at all. To be honest if they did come across that way I wouldn't be all that surprised because we are talking about a very small team this isn't Rock Star developers being whipped around by the Housers brothers. Would you believe they have been known to add new features into a game a few months before release?

 

I don't really much care how Mahjong and MineCraft do things. I never had any interest in their game and good for them on how they carve out their success. I do believe the popularity of MineCraft was likely one of the factors in how they moved forward.

 

You definitely hit the nail on the head about the software roadmap. In this post No Man's Sky world you have to be careful what you say. Sean Murray to his credit mentioned on occasion not all features would be available at launch and many of the fans ignored that. Much of the media ignored that tid bit too because the controversy was good for page views.

 

I must be one of the only people who have limited issues with temperature in this game. I wear a T-Shirt, Jeans, Bandana, Shades, Miners cap and the Iron Armor over that (except for the head). I put on my jacket when it gets cold I take it off when it gets warm. My base is in the burnt forrest too which has odd temperature swings.

[Trebor1503]

I would agree that there might need to be a different term coined to describe both what we experience and what we should expect. I will leave it to others to discuss but I will just state the following things I KNOW:

 

1. In every Axx of the game since I bought it I have played, enjoyed, and found challenge. I got my moneys worth out of the first Axx and so each version after that has (to me) been free gaming.

 

2. I like the fact that every Axx is different enough that I experience it like a sequel to a game I love more than just a patch.

 

3. I look forward to the next Axx and continue to play the current version until it comes out.

 

4. I would not have enjoyed this game nearly as much if I had bought it at GOLD stage and played through just that version. I would have missed out on so much. ( I know this based on the time I spent playing games like Fallout, etc)

 

5. I know that I will not love everything about the game and that the game may never be my version of "complete" (bring back one hitting stone without modding... hello) but nothing in life is perfect and if I only am happy by perfect I will never find joy.

 

I wish you all a happy holidays and happy gaming.

[Trebor1503]

I must be one of the only people who have limited issues with temperature in this game. I wear a T-Shirt, Jeans, Bandana, Shades, Miners cap and the Iron Armor over that (except for the head). I put on my jacket when it gets cold I take it off when it gets warm. My base is in the burnt forrest too which has odd temperature swings.

 

I agree, I have lived 30 days with my base clothing, a hide poncho, and a leather overcoat. I wear one, the other, or neither to make it through every day. One spot in my inventory (for the coat I am not wearing) doesn't seem overkill to deal with this issue.

[Guest]

I agree, I have lived 30 days with my base clothing, a hide poncho, and a leather overcoat. I wear one, the other, or neither to make it through every day. One spot in my inventory (for the coat I am not wearing) doesn't seem overkill to deal with this issue.

 

Please, no discussion of the temperature system, there's plenty of threads on it. Same with other specific features I mention: I just mean it as an example of features that are ostensibly unfinished.

[Tin]

With 3+million copies sold (and growing).. Why should they change what they are doing because you want them to?

[Guest]

With 3+million copies sold (and growing).. Why should they change what they are doing because you want them to?

 

Well if selling a lot of units was the end goal, they might as well stop right now. Mission success, go home everyone! I'm guessing that's not what you want, right?

 

I mean, what's the point of replies like these? Do I come across as throwing a tantrum or threatening the Pimps with anything if they don't listen to me? Like I said, I'm just using the tools provided here to voice my opinion, which is part of what makes early access potentially great. If you don't agree with my arguments, feel free to address them. If you just want me to shut up for some reason, I don't think I can help you.

[Tin]

Relax! You can be offended all you want.. but I really wanna know! Why should TFP change everything they are doing because you say so?

Everything they are doing is working well for them so why change it?

[Gazz]

Do I come across as throwing a tantrum or threatening the Pimps with anything if they don't listen to me?

More like you want the game to be done.

 

Won't happen this year but I have a feeling it will happen before next christmas. =P

[Guest]

Relax! You can be offended all you want.. but I really wanna know! Why should TFP change everything they are doing because you say so?

Everything they are doing is working well for them so why change it?

 

I'm pretty relaxed right now, thanks for your concern. To answer your question (and ignoring the silly "because you say so" part, since that turns it into rhetoric and I'm not here for that): because, as I tried to argue, it might be better for the game in the long run. I mean, financial success isn't the only motivation in what could be described as an artistic endeavor, right? I'm sure the Pimps themselves would like their game to see lasting success, considering it's their intellectual property. But maybe I'm wrong. I guess you'd have to ask the Pimps themselves for your answer.

 

I'm here because I think I have an opinion worth hearing. If you think it's ♥♥♥♥, fine, explain why. But this is my last response to posts that imply I'm trying to force the Pimps to do anything, or trying to impose my views in any other ways. I'm not doing that.

[LuckyStar]

In my humble opinion...

 

There's nothing that comes across as humble in your WALL of text. Sorry

 

Just want to remind you that Diablo III took 10 years to develop and that was Blizzard!

They have a massive budget and a very large development team.

 

Try to keep things in perspective.

 

Just offering my humble opinion.

[Guest]

More like you want the game to be done.

 

Won't happen this year but I have a feeling it will happen before next christmas. =P

 

That would be a nice surprise. And I hope "done" will mean that all things that weren't addressed "because alpha" will be fixed.

[Gazz]

Try to keep things in perspective.

 

Just offering my humble opinion.

Ah, I stopped having a humble opinion years ago. It's been IMO since then. =P

 

 

That would be a nice surprise. And I hope "done" will mean that all things that weren't addressed "because alpha" will be fixed.

A lot of the "polish" issues are just plain pointless to go over on every change.

First the game has to be feature complete.

Until then, at best you'll see some jury-rigging to keep things playable. =)

 

Good? Bad?

It's reality. Invent your own if you don't like it. =P

[Tin]

They are successful in doing what they are currently doing. I don't know why you are hung up on just the financial side of what 3mil+ (and growing) copies sold means. The money came with their success in how they are doing it.

I just have a hard time believing TFP (or any company for that matter) would listen to anyone that wants them to change 'While' they are successful.

 

If they were unsuccessful and the company was barely treading water, then maybe your opinion may have more merit and be something to look into and seriously considered.

[LuckyStar]

First the game has to be feature complete.

 

That is the ONE point that needs to be put forth for those impatient with Alpha.

 

If there was only one, that would be it.

 

Alpha is not finished until the features are in.

 

It's just that simple.

 

Not so simple getting that point across, at times.

[Guest]

That is the ONE point that needs to be put forth for those impatient with Alpha.

 

If there was only one, that would be it.

 

Alpha is not finished until the features are in.

 

It's just that simple.

 

Not so simple getting that point across, at times.

 

But we don't know what "feature complete" entails and at the same time, plenty of other games have fallen into the trap of feature creep. Adding game systems is cool, and yes, you need to have an actual game to optimize, but at some point you have to make sure that your ideas can work as intended, beyond the placeholders that are acceptable in testing stages. For example: bandits and other NPCs would be nice to have, but only if they have decent AI. And decent AI is simply not in the game right now, not even for the animals and zombies, which should be much less complex than actual people AI. Furthermore, the Pimps have tried putting in new stuff on occasion, only to realize that the engine can't handle it (UMA zombies for example). Sleeper zombies have been postponed multiple times now. What I'm trying to say is that typically (afaik), software developers know beforehand what features they want to implement, and thus what constitutes "feature complete". They also tend to know the limits of their platform/engine/coding experience/etc. beforehand, and I see signs that the Fun Pimps have bitten off more than they can chew in that regard. To stick with that figure of speech, I think they should just chew and swallow what's in their mouth right now instead of trying to add more bites.

 

And maybe it's not simple to get your point about alphas across because it's a theoretical oversimplification of the actual situation? :| (see, I can also do passive-aggressive!)