5 maps and a few hundred game days later, what bugs me about A21.2 Permadeath (spoiler warning if you haven't touched it)

[RStarphoenix]

This isn't really permadeath, it's more "next contestant please".

To me, permadeath would be like how some people have been streaming it - if you die, reset game, lose everything, no base or death backpack to regain lost stuff.

Now I do like the fact we can continue playing the same map (ala project zomboid) and time keeps ticking, but the rest just doesn't feel right.

1 -- You die, it's a simple race to get back to your backpack and get everything again. Permadeath should force a "delete everything on drop". No questions asked.

2 -- You die, your LCB still works and your pre-existing base can be taken back. This is ok I suppose, but can we at least nuke the previous LCB so it locks down all the workstations into wherever they were built? I mean technically we're a new life so none of this stuff is ours anymore....

3 -- Vehicles are fine (again, using PZ for context comparison here) since we don't have a key/hotwire system. Would be kinda fun at least if we had to replace the engine & battery on a previous life's vehicle at least to get it running again (even though it's the same day, the new life could be finding this as a disabled vehicle). In the case of the bicycle, maybe some iron and a new wheel (iron for the chain since it lacks an engine).

4 -- You die, you spawn at the exact same spawn point every time. This lends to super predicatble tracking thus making it easier to track down your death location. This needs to force you to spawn in a different spot on the map (I think PZ does this) so recovering your death backpack is much harder.

 

For the most part though I do like the challenge of trying to stay alive and not losing quest progress & perk progress. Once I figured out that my base persisted in ownership though, I just stored a bunch of books in boxes instead of selling them so my next life (if/when it came about) could read up and get perks faster and actually start out stronger than my previous life (see point 2 above).

 

I guess I just want to see TFP take a different route than PZ does with how they handle death in the game on a hardcore/permadeath option. Give it more impact or at least make it harder to get your stuff back so quickly.

[schwanz9000]

Most of the issues you're talking about need to take PVP and/or general multiplayer scenarios into consideration since we don't have a true single player game mode (setting Max Players to 1 is the only way).

1. Backpack left in the world: PVP Permadeath (as brutal as that sounds) would be a lot less rewarding if players couldn't loot their kills.
2. LCB and bases in general: I think we can do something about the LCB, but we are not nuking the whole base for those multiplayer folks that are sharing bases. It would really suck if Bob got eaten by a zombie only to leave Frank standing in a crater where the base used to be if Bob owned the LCB that was placed.
3. Vehicles left in the world: Nuking the vehicles on death has the same issue as bases in multiplayer. Bob gets mauled by a Dire Wolf and all of Frank's loot left in Bob's 4x4 goes poof. As of now, we have no plans for "fixer upper" vehicles. 
4. Spawn point: This sounds like a bug or a RWG map that only gave you one spawn point for some reason. If RWG, you could check spawnpoints.xml in the following location to see if that is the case. C:\Users\<YOUR_PC_NAME>\AppData\Roaming\7DaysToDie\GeneratedWorlds\<YOUR_MAP_NAME>

We'll work to get this polished up a little bit more as we reach for Gold. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[RStarphoenix]

5 hours ago, schwanz9000 said:

Most of the issues you're talking about need to take PVP and/or general multiplayer scenarios into consideration since we don't have a true single player game mode (setting Max Players to 1 is the only way).

1. Backpack left in the world: PVP Permadeath (as brutal as that sounds) would be a lot less rewarding if players couldn't loot their kills.
2. LCB and bases in general: I think we can do something about the LCB, but we are not nuking the whole base for those multiplayer folks that are sharing bases. It would really suck if Bob got eaten by a zombie only to leave Frank standing in a crater where the base used to be if Bob owned the LCB that was placed.
3. Vehicles left in the world: Nuking the vehicles on death has the same issue as bases in multiplayer. Bob gets mauled by a Dire Wolf and all of Frank's loot left in Bob's 4x4 goes poof. As of now, we have no plans for "fixer upper" vehicles. 
4. Spawn point: This sounds like a bug or a RWG map that only gave you one spawn point for some reason. If RWG, you could check spawnpoints.xml in the following location to see if that is the case. C:\Users\<YOUR_PC_NAME>\AppData\Roaming\7DaysToDie\GeneratedWorlds\<YOUR_MAP_NAME>

We'll work to get this polished up a little bit more as we reach for Gold. Thanks for the feedback!

 

Yeah most of my points are for a solo game for points 1, 2, & 3 since I don't PvP too often.
I just feel permadeath in a solo game is too easy as it is right now.

 

Multiplayer I would definitely keep things there, be it co-op or PvP.

Maybe for point 3 instead of nuking the vehicle giving it a total disable (reduced to zero health). It's lootable but the owner/team would have to repair it with kits like you normally would to reclaim it. Would fit into the current mechanics of the vehicles.

I checked, most of the RWG do give me more than one point, but it gives me the first spawn all of the time solo even if i add some random spawn points in and start a brand new save file. It only uses the other spawns when I'm playing co-op with my friends.

[doughphunghus]

5 hours ago, RStarphoenix said:

it gives me the first spawn all of the time solo even if i add some random spawn points in and start a brand new save file

I noticed this too. I was playing on a custom generated map and by default? It had 4 or 5 spawn points.  I didnt test but i reasoned that maybe the "other spawn points". , being so few, were likely very spread out (maybe 1 per biome?) and thus since i had not traveled far from my initial spawn point, the game just chose the only point sort of close to where i died, vs deciding to randomly drop me on the other aide of the map.  But yeah: on rng it would be nice to have a lot more spawn points generated anyway.

[Roland]

13 hours ago, schwanz9000 said:

2. LCB and bases in general: I think we can do something about the LCB, but we are not nuking the whole base for those multiplayer folks that are sharing bases. It would really suck if Bob got eaten by a zombie only to leave Frank standing in a crater where the base used to be if Bob owned the LCB that was placed.

 

I think the easiest thing would be to just make LCBs and Bedrolls inactive and then if the player is playing solo they can enable chunk reset for their game and when their LCB is inactivated the chunk can be reset and all player alterations in that chunk will be erased. This way, it is still set up for multiplayer with the player's bed and LCB being canceled and if the chunk reset option isn't enabled then the rest of the party won't get screwed out of their hard work. It also acts as a double "are you sure" enactment since the player has to set the death penalty option AND set the chunk reset option.

 

Personally, for me in a solo game, I am extremely happy with the setting of persistent debuffs and loss of food and water. That solves all of the issues I had with death. If I want permadeath in a solo game, I'll just start over and roll a new map. That "permadeath" option is a fine compromise for multiplayer but not really permadeath in the classic sense where your world deletes itself upon death. In a solo game the player can easily handle that themselves.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[schwanz9000]

18 hours ago, RStarphoenix said:

I checked, most of the RWG do give me more than one point, but it gives me the first spawn all of the time solo even if i add some random spawn points in and start a brand new save file. It only uses the other spawns when I'm playing co-op with my friends.

Sounds like a bug then. I'll send word to QA to take a look and get a ticket in. Thanks for double checking that!

[Zxaiercese]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:31 PM, RStarphoenix said:

This isn't really permadeath, it's more "next contestant please".

To me, permadeath would be like how some people have been streaming it - if you die, reset game, lose everything, no base or death backpack to regain lost stuff.

Now I do like the fact we can continue playing the same map (ala project zomboid) and time keeps ticking, but the rest just doesn't feel right.

1 -- You die, it's a simple race to get back to your backpack and get everything again. Permadeath should force a "delete everything on drop". No questions asked.

2 -- You die, your LCB still works and your pre-existing base can be taken back. This is ok I suppose, but can we at least nuke the previous LCB so it locks down all the workstations into wherever they were built? I mean technically we're a new life so none of this stuff is ours anymore....

3 -- Vehicles are fine (again, using PZ for context comparison here) since we don't have a key/hotwire system. Would be kinda fun at least if we had to replace the engine & battery on a previous life's vehicle at least to get it running again (even though it's the same day, the new life could be finding this as a disabled vehicle). In the case of the bicycle, maybe some iron and a new wheel (iron for the chain since it lacks an engine).

4 -- You die, you spawn at the exact same spawn point every time. This lends to super predicatble tracking thus making it easier to track down your death location. This needs to force you to spawn in a different spot on the map (I think PZ does this) so recovering your death backpack is much harder.

 

For the most part though I do like the challenge of trying to stay alive and not losing quest progress & perk progress. Once I figured out that my base persisted in ownership though, I just stored a bunch of books in boxes instead of selling them so my next life (if/when it came about) could read up and get perks faster and actually start out stronger than my previous life (see point 2 above).

 

I guess I just want to see TFP take a different route than PZ does with how they handle death in the game on a hardcore/permadeath option. Give it more impact or at least make it harder to get your stuff back so quickly.

 

Here's one idea - everything inside your LCB area gets damaged by either a percentage or a flat value to represent time passing. The more often you die before repairing it, the more likely it is to break and crumble with the next respawn. Say if every block takes 100 damage and you don't repair them before dying a couple more times, most of your wooden structures and furniture crumble.

[warmer]

On 10/10/2023 at 6:09 PM, Zxaiercese said:

 

Here's one idea - everything inside your LCB area gets damaged by either a percentage or a flat value to represent time passing. The more often you die before repairing it, the more likely it is to break and crumble with the next respawn. Say if every block takes 100 damage and you don't repair them before dying a couple more times, most of your wooden structures and furniture crumble.

It would be cool if there was a way to create a "remnent" style copy of your old base. Maybe by damaging a % of them by replacing them with an applicable style block. Like the burnt and broken pieces in pois.

 

Then again, this doesn't make sense in Multiplayer. In solo it makes perfect sense and is immersive, but in MP, how do you have the fact that other players can be part of your team and that wouldn't make sense to damage a groups LCB items/base.

Edited October 19, 2023 by warmer (see edit history)

[theFlu]

9 hours ago, warmer said:

Then again, this doesn't make sense in Multiplayer. In solo it makes perfect sense and is immersive, but in MP, how do you have the fact that other players can be part of your team and that wouldn't make sense to damage a groups LCB items/base.

I don't really see a problem with MP, one might want to reduce the amount of damage when an ally dies so a team of 4 dying on a run won't just destroy everything; but other than that, all your allies are responsible of your claim just as you. If you have that one numpty that dies 5 times each run, well, time to reconsider who you ally with ..