Stop Trying to fix Zombie AI! : -> Do this instead

[Aiyoki]

I've seen constant changes to Zombie AI in response to the exploitation of the minority race of players who choose to embrace said exploits. I don't think that trying to fix the problem by changing how AI works in its entirety is the solution.

 

As a long time player with more than 1700 hours invested: I come here to offer a few suggestions in regards to what TFP can do with Zombie AI in this game to improve things while keeping the game fun and entertaining:

 

 

Here are some (basic) ideas that I think would make the game experience more diverse without greatly hindering development. some of these AI mechanics already exist or existed in previous versions of the game:

 

----ZOMBIE AI TYPES: All of these could be implemented with % chances for each zombie to have the specific type of AI pathing. This would diversify the all-too-uniform Zombie AI and make any singular base building strategy moot:

1) Dumb zombies = Instead of trying to find the best path to the player, they simply bash on anything that's between them and the player.
 

2) Smart Zombies = Path the easiest route to the player and can actually open doors that are not locked.

 

3) Stealthy Zombies = Strive to keep out of the player's Line of sight while bashing holes in obstacles to open pathways to the player.

 

----ADD SPECIFIC AI BEHAVIOR TO SPECIAL ZOMBIES:

 

1) Spider zombies should be able to climb and cling: Just think if spider zombies could also scale walls AND crawl upside-down on ceilings! (IE: Giving Spiders a "Sticky" mechanic so it's impossible for them to fall off of blocks.

 

2) Screamers = Will summon more powerful zombies and Ferals for each consecutive failed attempt to close the distance between themselves and the player.

 

3) Bomber zombies who can't reach the player within X amount of time will instead path to a supporting part of the structure that player is standing on and "Detonate" themselves.

 

4) Engineer Zombies - (those ones in the tech outfits) can randomly disable powered defenses for short periods of time by maintaining proximity to the device, allowing other zombies to pass the danger zone unscathed.

 

5 ) Cop Zombies - If these big baddies fail to reach the player on foot within a realistic timeframe then they should instead start spamming their projectile vomit at any supporting structure that is keeping them from reaching the player.

 

6) Zombie Dogs and Zombie Bears should be the only zombies capable of digging but they should do so at a much faster rate than the current zombie digging speeds.

 

This is a small example of how I think Zombie AI could be improved to create a more immersive (and less Fix-like) theme for 7 Days to Die.

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Aiyoki (see edit history)

[Sal]

Ohhh boy......strap in, Aikoki, the storm is coming. BTW, this video was already addressed in another thread. Give me a minute and I'll post a link.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Sal (see edit history)

[Aiyoki]

Hmm... Maybe using the Video wasn't the best of references since I come to offer a suggestion but I do believe that diverse AI mechanics (considering there are different types of zombies) would be an interesting and fun improvement to the current state of the game and how it's played.

[8_Hussars]

I applaud your suggestions.  Some of the tweaks you offer would be interesting in the current iteration of the game and maybe add some unpredictability.

However, IMHO they are simply alternate flavours of two existing basic defence approaches in the game and both approaches players seem to object to at times.

1) Zombies attack via mass destruction resulting in defence through simple mass (or HP) of blocks.

2) Zombies attack via Structural Integrity resulting in defence through pathing, choke points and timing.

3) Zombies attack the player directly because there is no base.

[AtomicUs5000]

I've been an advocate of zombies like this for years. I would also like to see traps and other base defenses designed to handle these specific behaviors. I wish to be challenged to come up with solutions for base defense while being provided adequate tools to do so.

Predicted results would be:

• you and I are happy
• a set of people still consider this "wasting time fixing zombie AI" and that really stupid video gets posted yet again.
• a set of people complaining that zombies should not act this way because they should all be slow and dumb and not have "engineering degrees." References to swimming zombies will be made.
• a set of people complaining that they can no longer survive using the same base design they have had for x years. References to digging zombies and underground bases will be made.
• a set of people claiming that this is TFP once again forcing people to play the game a certain way. This will then lead to typical counter-arguments to mod the game or turn off the hordes, followed by counter-counter-arguments that not everybody cares to mod and they want hordes but do not want to spend x hours repairing their precious bases between every horde.

[Matt115]

11 hours ago, Aiyoki said:

I've seen constant changes to Zombie AI in response to the exploitation of the minority race of players who choose to embrace said exploits. I don't think that trying to fix the problem by changing how AI works in its entirety is the solution.

 

As a long time player with more than 1700 hours invested: I come here to offer a few suggestions in regards to what TFP can do with Zombie AI in this game to improve things while keeping the game fun and entertaining:

 

 

Here are some (basic) ideas that I think would make the game experience more diverse without greatly hindering development. some of these AI mechanics already exist or existed in previous versions of the game:

 

----ZOMBIE AI TYPES: All of these could be implemented with % chances for each zombie to have the specific type of AI pathing. This would diversify the all-too-uniform Zombie AI and make any singular base building strategy moot:

1) Dumb zombies = Instead of trying to find the best path to the player, they simply bash on anything that's between them and the player.
 

2) Smart Zombies = Path the easiest route to the player and can actually open doors that are not locked.

 

3) Stealthy Zombies = Strive to keep out of the player's Line of sight while bashing holes in obstacles to open pathways to the player.

 

----ADD SPECIFIC AI BEHAVIOR TO SPECIAL ZOMBIES:

 

1) Spider zombies should be able to climb and cling: Just think if spider zombies could also scale walls AND crawl upside-down on ceilings! (IE: Giving Spiders a "Sticky" mechanic so it's impossible for them to fall off of blocks.

 

2) Screamers = Will summon more powerful zombies and Ferals for each consecutive failed attempt to close the distance between themselves and the player.

 

3) Bomber zombies who can't reach the player within X amount of time will instead path to a supporting part of the structure that player is standing on and "Detonate" themselves.

 

4) Engineer Zombies - (those ones in the tech outfits) can randomly disable powered defenses for short periods of time by maintaining proximity to the device, allowing other zombies to pass the danger zone unscathed.

 

5 ) Cop Zombies - If these big baddies fail to reach the player on foot within a realistic timeframe then they should instead start spamming their projectile vomit at any supporting structure that is keeping them from reaching the player.

 

6) Zombie Dogs and Zombie Bears should be the only zombies capable of digging but they should do so at a much faster rate than the current zombie digging speeds.

 

This is a small example of how I think Zombie AI could be improved to create a more immersive (and less Fix-like) theme for 7 Days to Die.

 

You say to not fix zombie AI and then say how to fix AI you know about that right?

24 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

I've been an advocate of zombies like this for years. I would also like to see traps and other base defenses designed to handle these specific behaviors. I wish to be challenged to come up with solutions for base defense while being provided adequate tools to do so.

Predicted results would be:

• you and I are happy
• a set of people still consider this "wasting time fixing zombie AI" and that really stupid video gets posted yet again.
• a set of people complaining that zombies should not act this way because they should all be slow and dumb and not have "engineering degrees." References to swimming zombies will be made.
• a set of people complaining that they can no longer survive using the same base design they have had for x years. References to digging zombies and underground bases will be made.
• a set of people claiming that this is TFP once again forcing people to play the game a certain way. This will then lead to typical counter-arguments to mod the game or turn off the hordes, followed by counter-counter-arguments that not everybody cares to mod and they want hordes but do not want to spend x hours repairing their precious bases between every horde.

Well to the last point : hordes and do not want do spend x hours repairing could be done in theory : just decrease zombie dmg and hp by 50% so - hordes will be offten but weak

 

[AtomicUs5000]

17 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well to the last point : hordes and do not want do spend x hours repairing could be done in theory : just decrease zombie dmg and hp by 50% so - hordes will be offten but weak

 

 

I could have predicted that as the typical counter-counter-counter-argument, but I had to draw the line somewhere.

[Rotor]

50 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

 

• a set of people complaining that zombies should not act this way because they should all be slow and dumb and not have "engineering degrees." References to swimming zombies will be made.

/StopDigging

 

This is my camp  after that all issues are "resolved".

 

/StartDigging

[Matt115]

17 minutes ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

 

I could have predicted that as the typical counter-counter-counter-argument, but I had to draw the line somewhere.

Yeah this can be long topic XD

[Boidster]

14 hours ago, Aiyoki said:

I've seen constant changes to Zombie AI in response to the exploitation of the minority race of players who choose to embrace said exploits.

 

No, you haven't. As has been explained at length by @Roland.

 

("minority race" wtf?)

 

Some of your ideas are interesting, tho.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Boidster (see edit history)

[Roland]

5 hours ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

I've been an advocate of zombies like this for years. I would also like to see traps and other base defenses designed to handle these specific behaviors. I wish to be challenged to come up with solutions for base defense while being provided adequate tools to do so.

Predicted results would be:

• you and I are happy
• a set of people still consider this "wasting time fixing zombie AI" and that really stupid video gets posted yet again.
• a set of people complaining that zombies should not act this way because they should all be slow and dumb and not have "engineering degrees." References to swimming zombies will be made.
• a set of people complaining that they can no longer survive using the same base design they have had for x years. References to digging zombies and underground bases will be made.
• a set of people claiming that this is TFP once again forcing people to play the game a certain way. This will then lead to typical counter-arguments to mod the game or turn off the hordes, followed by counter-counter-arguments that not everybody cares to mod and they want hordes but do not want to spend x hours repairing their precious bases between every horde.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. QFT.

 

1 hour ago, Boidster said:

 

No, you haven't. As has been explained at length by @Roland.

 

("minority race" wtf?)

 

Some of your ideas are interesting, tho.

 

Rather than having had thousands of hours of interactions with the developers themselves which included both listening and discussing, I see that what I really need in order to be taken seriously is a YouTube channel and a clickbait title for my vids...

[Roland]

16 hours ago, Aiyoki said:

I----ZOMBIE AI TYPES: All of these could be implemented with % chances for each zombie to have the specific type of AI pathing. This would diversify the all-too-uniform Zombie AI and make any singular base building strategy moot:

1) Dumb zombies = Instead of trying to find the best path to the player, they simply bash on anything that's between them and the player.
 

2) Smart Zombies = Path the easiest route to the player and can actually open doors that are not locked.

 

3) Stealthy Zombies = Strive to keep out of the player's Line of sight while bashing holes in obstacles to open pathways to the player.

 

----ADD SPECIFIC AI BEHAVIOR TO SPECIAL ZOMBIES:

 

1) Spider zombies should be able to climb and cling: Just think if spider zombies could also scale walls AND crawl upside-down on ceilings! (IE: Giving Spiders a "Sticky" mechanic so it's impossible for them to fall off of blocks.

 

2) Screamers = Will summon more powerful zombies and Ferals for each consecutive failed attempt to close the distance between themselves and the player.

 

3) Bomber zombies who can't reach the player within X amount of time will instead path to a supporting part of the structure that player is standing on and "Detonate" themselves.

 

4) Engineer Zombies - (those ones in the tech outfits) can randomly disable powered defenses for short periods of time by maintaining proximity to the device, allowing other zombies to pass the danger zone unscathed.

 

5 ) Cop Zombies - If these big baddies fail to reach the player on foot within a realistic timeframe then they should instead start spamming their projectile vomit at any supporting structure that is keeping them from reaching the player.

 

6) Zombie Dogs and Zombie Bears should be the only zombies capable of digging but they should do so at a much faster rate than the current zombie digging speeds.

 

This is a small example of how I think Zombie AI could be improved to create a more immersive (and less Fix-like) theme for 7 Days to Die.

 

 

Cool ideas. Here are some notes on each

 

1) Already implemented

2) Bandits

3) Bandits

 

1) Cool idea already suggested many times to faatal who stated that extending pathing to vertical surfaces and upside down surfaces would be a major undertaking so not super likely for this game.

2) This would be very cool and easily done I think.

3) Bandits

4) Bandits

5) Bandits but with a rocket launcher instead of vomit

6) Digging isn't a behavior that is added or subtracted to an AI task list. it is an integrated part of the pathing code and separating it out and implementing it as some separate behavioral action would be a major undertaking so not super likely for this game.

 

I think a lot of your ideas would be better suited for bandit abilities rather than zombie abilities. The worst thing in the world would be for George Romero to become disappointed in us after all...