What is wrong with loot stage 222+?

longcheq · January 2, 2022

I was grinding quests to collect gears in a snow biome. My targets were the loot chests in the loot rooms. It was the time I reached level 79 and loot stage 222 (with level 5 Lucky Looter) and I suddenly experienced the first four chests with no gears or parts in them. That was too weird, I noticed it immediately because it never happened before. I stopped playing and searched for information about the loot system on the internet and I found this guy Guns, Nerds, and Steel on Youtube with a video, Alpha 20: The Complete Looting Guide for 7 Days to Die (Tutorial/Tips and Tricks), that explains it very carefully.

He told me that at some specific loot stages, the game will not offer the gears of the low tiers any more.
To dig deeper to the problem, I opened a new game on the same map just for testing. I used the console commands to get level 80 and loot stage 222+ (of course in the snow biome with Lucky Looter level 5), I took more than 50 quests tier2_clear and went straight to the loot rooms for the loot chests. The result really shocked me, there were so many chests with no gears or parts and I got no armors at all but only tier 3 weapons, of course no steel armors no military armors, not even a part.

So, no armors for the high loot stages? Is this intended? Is this not ridiculous? Anyone see this?

Thank you for reading, and sorry for my not good English.

Edited January 2, 2022 by longcheq (see edit history)

Ornias · January 2, 2022

Along those lines are some chests static? I can be well above loot level 100 and still find stone tools.

Sydious · January 3, 2022

I've noticed this as well in my current game. Not sure off top of my head on my game stage or anything, but I have started noticing more and more loot crates with nothing in them.

longcheq · January 3, 2022

21 hours ago, Ornias said:

Along those lines are some chests static? I can be well above loot level 100 and still find stone tools.

Sorry I don't understand the "chests static", what is "chests static"? And sure, you still can get stone tools at whatever loot stage, but only from some other specific loot containers like bags or backpacks (I might be wrong with these examples) and absolutely not from the loot chests from the loot rooms (I don't know what you guys call those chests, for me I call them the treasure chests, the treasure chests of the dungeons. Each POI dungeon only have one treasure chest (loot chest) that locates in the final room or the loot room. It's Wood Crate for tier 1 POI, Leather Trunk for tier 2 POI, Reinforced Chest for tier 3 POI and Hardened Chest for tier 4 & 5 POI).

I believe that they sort steel weapons like steel sledgehammer and steel club, steel armors and military armors into tier 2 gears. That's why at high enough loot stages like 222+, when tier 2 gears are removed from the loot list of the treasure chests (loot chests in the loot rooms of any POI dungeons), you will never get steel weapons, steel armors and military armors from those chests anymore. This is absolutely ridiculous. Are steel weapons not endgame weapons? Are steel armors not endgame heavy armors? Are military armors not endgame light armors? Then why the hell am I not supposed to get those endgame gears from the treasure chests of the dungeons at high level or late game?

Edited January 3, 2022 by longcheq (see edit history)

DominionZA · January 3, 2022

I still find gear. I'm level 133 with like 450+ loot stage, don't remember exactly. I find military and steel armor parts, full armors sometimes so you can scrap them into parts. I found a level 6 set of steel armor and SWAT helmet for my character, along with level 6 steel tools and machine tools. I have so many of all that I got enough parts for everything

Edited January 3, 2022 by DominionZA (see edit history)

longcheq · January 3, 2022

1 hour ago, DominionZA said:

I still find gear. I'm level 133 with like 450+ loot stage, don't remember exactly. I find military and steel armor parts, full armors sometimes so you can scrap them into parts. I found a level 6 set of steel armor and SWAT helmet for my character, along with level 6 steel tools and machine tools. I have so many of all that I got enough parts for everything

Can you tell me where do you find them at that loot stage? what loot containers? And yeah of course me too I still can find them, but mostly in lockers or Z bags, but not from the loot chests anymore. Ironically I could just do it at loot stage 220, then I leveled up and and it's completely gone. I've done several new games for testing and it's all the same.

Krougal · January 3, 2022

Well there could be a "dead spot" in between loot stages where these things are not on the tables and then they appear again later.

You would have to look through the loot.xml to really understand what is going on.

Ornias · January 3, 2022

3 hours ago, longcheq said:

Sorry I don't understand the "chests static", what is "chests static"? And sure, you still can get stone tools at whatever loot stage, but only from some other specific loot containers like bags or backpacks (I might be wrong with these examples) and absolutely not from the loot chests from the loot rooms (I don't know what you guys call those chests, for me I call them the treasure chests, the treasure chests of the dungeons. Each POI dungeon only have one treasure chest (loot chest) that locates in the final room or the loot room. It's Wood Crate for tier 1 POI, Leather Trunk for tier 2 POI, Reinforced Chest for tier 3 POI and Hardened Chest for tier 4 & 5 POI).

I believe that they sort steel weapons like steel sledgehammer and steel club, steel armors and military armors into tier 2 gears. That's why at high enough loot stages like 222+, when tier 2 gears are removed from the loot list of the treasure chests (loot chests in the loot rooms of any POI dungeons), you will never get steel weapons, steel armors and military armors from those chests anymore. This is absolutely ridiculous. Are steel weapons not endgame weapons? Are steel armors not endgame heavy armors? Are military armors not endgame light armors? Then why the hell am I not supposed to get those endgame gears from the treasure chests of the dungeons at high level or late game?

Static as in the loot is determined at the start of the game and does not change with loot score. It will drop the same loot at level 1 and level 100.

longcheq · January 3, 2022

24 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Well there could be a "dead spot" in between loot stages where these things are not on the tables and then they appear again later.

You would have to look through the loot.xml to really understand what is going on.

Can you tell me at what loot stage they will appear again? I tested with some loot stages at 2xx (of course above 222), some at 3xx, some at 4xx and some at 5xx in 3 different new games and it's all the same. And sadly I cannot go through those .xml files because they are too complicated for me and will take very long long time.

theFlu · January 3, 2022

On 1/2/2022 at 10:13 AM, longcheq said:

gears

Your phrasing confuses me a bit. You list "gears" alongside "armor" and "weapons", which could both be called gear (I assume you're not talking about steroids... ) and I can't decide what you're missing in the loot.

Would this be reasonably accurate:

At a lower loot stage, say 100, you'll get Padded Armor pieces from chests in "tier two quest"-POIs, but once you hit 222, you won't get one anymore? And you don't get anything in their place either?

longcheq · January 3, 2022

3 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Your phrasing confuses me a bit. You list "gears" alongside "armor" and "weapons", which could both be called gear (I assume you're not talking about steroids... ) and I can't decide what you're missing in the loot.

Would this be reasonably accurate:

At a lower loot stage, say 100, you'll get Padded Armor pieces from chests in "tier two quest"-POIs, but once you hit 222, you won't get one anymore? And you don't get anything in their place either?

Sorry for my not good English. Yeah I usually rush quests for weapons and armors. And in this new A20 I rely on quest rewards early game (often from tier 3 and 4 quest) and rush loot chests from tier 1 and 2 quest in late game when I just look for purple quality tier 3 guns, steel weapons, steel armors and military armors, that's the fastest way for me. Each loot chest always drop me one random weapon or armor or parts of them depending on my loot stage, but it starts to mostly give me no weapons or armors or parts at all from loot stage 222, and there's a low chance, I think it's about 25%, dropping me a tier 3 weapon like compound bow, compound crossbow, desert vulture, auto shotgun, sniper rifle, M60 and drone, and there's no armors and steel weapons at all.

theFlu · January 3, 2022

Hmm.. ok. Dug a bit in the loot.xml.. it seems that it is intentional. At least working as implemented.

If I'm reading this right, there's an equal chance of getting on item from either groupWeaponsAllScaledNoStone, or groupArmorScaled.
So, you might be having a 50% chance for a weapon, 50% for an armor, regardless of loot stage.

Then, the groupArmorScaled, has Tier-based probabilities (through a template) as follows in the spoiler:

Spoiler

AND one for Tier 1, I skip that, and the below for Tier 2

This is clearly intended to choose which type of gear to give (padded or leather or military). Tier 2 armors are the military and steel, and it seems even that probability drops to zero at loot stage 240. Now, I don't know what the loot-generator is supposed to do when given three probabilites of zero, but it sounds it does indeed give nothing.

Looks like the same armor-group applies to ALL levels of end-loot-chests, which should mean even T5 won't be giving armor after 240.

The weapons use an extra prob-group, ProbT3, which "ends" at 0.5, so you'll always have a 50% chance of getting a high-tier weapon. Or a 100%, if the generator is using the numbers "relatively" as it used to.

EDIT: If this is real, an easy "fix" would be to give the

...

a tiny "buff", into something like

Is this a bug report or a pimp dream..? @unholyjoe ? (I hope EDIT-tagging does something..)

Edited January 3, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

**unholyjoe** · January 3, 2022

pimp dream for now because its ALL WIP.

certain issues with looting now are known internally so may be a change pending internal discussions and plans. (no promises)

theFlu · January 3, 2022

10 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

may be a change pending internal discussions and plans.

Thanks!

Yeh, it will change. I guess the main take-away for those discussions is, "It is a little weird that the 'main loot item' is there only in 1/4 of the boxes at high loot stages"

**unholyjoe** · January 3, 2022

hence the WIP as its under scrutiny any ways. hopefully something/remedy will come soon.

longcheq · January 4, 2022

10 hours ago, theFlu said:

Hmm.. ok. Dug a bit in the loot.xml.. it seems that it is intentional. At least working as implemented.

If I'm reading this right, there's an equal chance of getting on item from either groupWeaponsAllScaledNoStone, or groupArmorScaled.
So, you might be having a 50% chance for a weapon, 50% for an armor, regardless of loot stage.

Then, the groupArmorScaled, has Tier-based probabilities (through a template) as follows in the spoiler:

Reveal hidden contents

   <lootprobtemplate name="ProbT0">
       <loot level="0,2" prob="0.15"/>
       <loot level="3,4" prob="0.15"/>
       <loot level="5,7" prob="0.18"/>
       <loot level="8,9" prob="0.25"/>
       <loot level="10,12" prob="0.29"/>
       <loot level="13,14" prob="0.34"/>
       <loot level="15,16" prob="0.43"/>
       <loot level="17,19" prob="0.48"/>
       <loot level="20,21" prob="0.54"/>
       <loot level="22,24" prob="0.65"/>
       <loot level="25,26" prob="0.72"/>
       <loot level="27,28" prob="0.79"/>
       <loot level="29,31" prob="0.91"/>
       <loot level="32,33" prob="1"/>
       <loot level="34,36" prob="0.81"/>
       <loot level="37,38" prob="0.88"/>
       <loot level="39,40" prob="0.95"/>
       <loot level="41,43" prob="0.74"/>
       <loot level="44,45" prob="0.79"/>
       <loot level="46,48" prob="0.85"/>
       <loot level="49,50" prob="0.62"/>
       <loot level="51,52" prob="0.66"/>
       <loot level="53,55" prob="0.71"/>
       <loot level="56,57" prob="0.46"/>
       <loot level="58,60" prob="0.49"/>
       <loot level="61,62" prob="0.52"/>
       <loot level="63,64" prob="0.25"/>
       <loot level="65,999999" prob="0"/>
   </lootprobtemplate>

AND one for Tier 1, I skip that, and the below for Tier 2

   <lootprobtemplate name="ProbT2">
       <loot level="0,79" prob="0"/>
       <loot level="80,81" prob="0.04"/>
       <loot level="82,84" prob="0.05"/>
       <loot level="85,86" prob="0.06"/>
       <loot level="87,88" prob="0.12"/>
       <loot level="89,91" prob="0.13"/>
       <loot level="92,93" prob="0.19"/>
       <loot level="94,96" prob="0.22"/>
       <loot level="97,98" prob="0.25"/>
       <loot level="99,100" prob="0.32"/>
       <loot level="101,103" prob="0.35"/>
       <loot level="104,105" prob="0.39"/>
       <loot level="106,108" prob="0.47"/>
       <loot level="109,110" prob="0.52"/>
       <loot level="111,112" prob="0.57"/>
       <loot level="113,115" prob="0.66"/>
       <loot level="116,117" prob="0.72"/>
       <loot level="118,120" prob="0.77"/>
       <loot level="121,122" prob="0.83"/>
       <loot level="123,124" prob="0.89"/>
       <loot level="125,127" prob="0.94"/>
       <loot level="128,129" prob="1"/>
       <loot level="130,132" prob="0.81"/>
       <loot level="133,134" prob="0.86"/>
       <loot level="135,136" prob="0.91"/>
       <loot level="137,139" prob="0.71"/>
       <loot level="140,141" prob="0.75"/>
       <loot level="142,144" prob="0.79"/>
       <loot level="145,146" prob="0.58"/>
       <loot level="147,148" prob="0.61"/>
       <loot level="149,151" prob="0.64"/>
       <loot level="152,153" prob="0.61"/>
       <loot level="154,156" prob="0.63"/>
       <loot level="157,158" prob="0.65"/>
       <loot level="159,160" prob="0.66"/>
       <loot level="161,163" prob="0.67"/>
       <loot level="164,194" prob="0.5"/>
       <loot level="195,239" prob="0.35"/>
       <loot level="240,999999" prob="0"/>
   </lootprobtemplate>

This is clearly intended to choose which type of gear to give (padded or leather or military). Tier 2 armors are the military and steel, and it seems even that probability drops to zero at loot stage 240. Now, I don't know what the loot-generator is supposed to do when given three probabilites of zero, but it sounds it does indeed give nothing.

Looks like the same armor-group applies to ALL levels of end-loot-chests, which should mean even T5 won't be giving armor after 240.

The weapons use an extra prob-group, ProbT3, which "ends" at 0.5, so you'll always have a 50% chance of getting a high-tier weapon. Or a 100%, if the generator is using the numbers "relatively" as it used to.

EDIT: If this is real, an easy "fix" would be to give the

   <lootprobtemplate name="ProbT2">

...

       <loot level="240,999999" prob="0"/>

a tiny "buff", into something like

       <loot level="240,999999" prob="0.001"/>

Is this a bug report or a pimp dream..? @unholyjoe ? (I hope EDIT-tagging does something..)

Thank you so much!

I can't stand this ridiculous anymore, I'll go to change it myself if they don't.

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What is wrong with loot stage 222+?

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