Weapon Stamina Efficiency

[Anxiety123]

I've played with various primary weapons recently.  Before starting my current run, I wondered how the various weapon classes compare in terms of stamina efficiency.  So I crunched (overstatement) a few numbers for the primitive tier weapons.  Be aware that I have not considered the effects of Sexual Tyrannosaurus or the Ergonomic Grip.  My observations follow:

 

I assumed, wrongly, that power attacks had a higher base damage.  For most weapons, they do not.  They simply add +100% to your damage.  This stacks linearly with other percentile modifiers (e.g. +10% per quality tier, +10% per weapon mod, +10% per rank in the appropriate perk).  Exceptions:

• Bone knives gain +100% and an increase to base damage.
• Stone sledgehammers gain +125% instead of +100%.  Other percentile bonuses reduce the sledgehammer's small power attack advantage, but it may be helpful at level 1.

 

Let's see the Base Damage : Stamina ratio for normal attacks with primitive melee weapons (including bare hands):

Stone Spear		0.556

Wooden Club		0.793
Stone Sledgehammer	0.784

Bare Hands		0.476
Knuckle Wraps		0.681

Bone Knife		0.698

 

Bare hands are crap, as expected.  The spear has extra range, obviously.  The knife bleeds anyone it strikes, but cannot knock anyone down.  This comparison neglects those features.

 

The Strength weapons really stand out.  They're my overall favorite weapons anyway due to their knockdown potential.  It's also worth noting that the sledgehammer gains a +10% dismemberment chance (+30% with power attacks) over every other weapon class.

 

Now, let's compare the Base Damage : Stamina ratio for power attacks:

Stone Spear		0.279

Wooden Club		0.528
Stone Sledgehammer	0.391

Bare Hands		0.316
Knuckle Wraps		0.400

Bone Knife		0.935

 

These values neglect all percentile modifiers;  that means no +25% sledgehammer damage.  It also means that power attacks may still be more efficient than normal attacks at low levels.

 

Stamina-wise, the spear compares poorly even to bare hands, except it's thrown.  The club still stands out.  The sledgehammer falls behind knuckle wraps, but it has those other benefits I mentioned.

 

Dat bone knife.  So I've played with knives before, relying mostly on power attacks;  bleeding is slow and the jabs do very little damage.  They're quite good despite their short reach.  I never actually compared the numbers like this before.  Holy crap.  This is the ratio for its base damage, so percentile modifiers don't change its relative efficiency.

 

Anyway, I found this comparison interesting.  I thought others might also find it interesting.  It's clearly not a comprehensive analysis.  I haven't compared higher tier items.  Make of it what you will.

[meganoth]

Very interesting. What I find troublesome is that the weapons of the strength tree with access to the stamina decreasing perk offer the best stamina efficiency at standard attacks. I would have expected it the other way round.

 

It  would be interesting to know if this keeps up with higher tier melee weapons. At a time when you use primitive weapons the relevant perks generally don't factor in much as you usually have at most 1 or 2 points invested and 1 point in sexrex is available to all classes. But with higher tier melee weapons the strength player can boost his stamina with sexrex while other weapons like the speer might have a stamina problem without an inexpensive solution.

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

Good start..

For the power attacks, did you take into account the regen-loss that happens, in any way? If not, the numbers may shift pretty radically, and the situation gets a lot more complicated for multiple swings - you can get more swings in with faster weapons while the regen is off.

[Anxiety123]

Well, we may as well look at some other weapons.  I don't want to construct an elaborate spreadsheet, so I'll still ignore Sexy Rexy, Ergonomic Grip, and skill point costs;  Strength has an advantage since it controls both SexRex and the damage perks for Strength weapons.  I'm still only interested in melee weapons since they're my primary weapons until late game.  I'm also still focused on stamina efficiency, ignoring range, bleeding, electric shock, and other features.

 

Item			Base Damage (Power Attack)	Stamina Cost (Power Attack)	Base Damage : Stamina (Power Attack)

Stone Spear		10.3 (10.3 + 285%)		18.5 (36.9)			0.556 (0.279)
Iron Spear		12.4 (12.4 + 285%)		20.3 (40.6)			0.610 (0.305)
Steel Spear		18.6 (18.6 + 285%)		22.4 (44.8)			0.830 (0.415)

Wooden Club		13.8 (13.8 + 100%)		17.4 (26.1)			0.793 (0.528)
Baseball Bat		17.4 (17.4 + 100%)		20.9 (35.6)			0.832 (0.488)
Candy Club		19.2 (19.2 + 100%)		20.9 (35.6)			0.918 (0.539)
Steel Club		26.2 (26.2 + 100%)		23.7 (40.3)			1.105 (0.650)

Stone Sledgehammer	17.5 (17.5 + 125%)		22.3 (44.7)			0.784 (0.391)
Iron Sledgehammer	30.8 (30.8 + 125%)		36.7 (73.4)			0.839 (0.419)
Steel Sledgehammer	46.2 (46.2 + 125%)		40.5 (81.0)			1.140 (0.570)

Bare Hands	 	 5.0 ( 5.0 + 100%)		10.5 (15.8)			0.476 (0.316)
Knuckle Wraps		 6.2 ( 6.2 + 100%)		 9.1 (15.5)			0.681 (0.400)
Iron Knuckles		 9.1 ( 9.1 + 100%)		 9.6 (16.3)			0.947 (0.558)
Steel Knuckles		13.6 (13.6 + 100%)		10.2 (17.3)			1.333 (0.786)

Bone Knife		 5.1 (10.2 + 100%)		 7.3 (10.9)			0.698 (0.935)
Hunting Knife		 6.1 (12.1 + 100%)		 8.2 (12.3)			0.743 (0.983)
Candy Knife		 6.6 (13.3 + 100%)		 8.2 (12.3)			0.804 (1.081)
Machete			19.8 (19.8 + 100%)		19.2 (32.7)			1.031 (0.605)

Stun Baton		10.8 (10.8 + 100%)		15.5 (26.4)			0.696 (0.409)

 

I included the holiday weapons for completeness, since they're still actual weapons, not tools.  I don't know how useful picks and wrenches are as weapons, but I wouldn't recommend them.

 

Regarding the percentile damage modifiers, they stack linearly with other percentile modifiers, complicating matters.  Perks, quality tier, weapon mods, and buffs all add percentile modifiers.  So don't use these numbers to decide whether a weapon's power attack is worth using;  it depends on too many things.  It's just interesting to see how the different weapon classes compare with each other.

 

The headshot multiplier from base attributes is a separate damage multiplier.  Material multipliers (e.g. +15% damage to wood blocks from the Wood Splitter) are the headshot equivalent for block damage.

 

Final Damage = Base Damage x Percentile Modifier x Headshot Multiplier

 

This is all based on what I've read in the game's XML data and comments.  I could be mistaken.

 

Anyway, the base damage is interesting precisely because the percentile modifiers stack linearly.  A high-quality primitive weapon may outperform a low-quality iron weapon at low levels due to the quality bonus.  At high levels, other bonuses with a higher base damage can make a low-quality higher-tech weapon superior.

 

I didn't previously account for the massive percentile bonus for thrown spears.  It dwarfs all other percentile modifiers.  The max from other sources without buffs is somewhere around +150% (50% from quality, 50% from skill points, 10% from books, 40% from weapon mods).  So a thrown spear, at level 1, hits around 70% as hard as it ever will.

 

I also noticed that sledgehammers have, it seems, the only instance of the GrazeDamageMultiplier (10%) effect in the game.  I have no idea what the graze multiplier is for other weapons.  I assume the sledgehammer's 10% is abnormally high.  Maybe it's better against crowds?

 

46 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Good start..

For the power attacks, did you take into account the regen-loss that happens, in any way? If not, the numbers may shift pretty radically, and the situation gets a lot more complicated for multiple swings - you can get more swings in with faster weapons while the regen is off.

 

I'm actually aware of that, but you're right.  I forgot to mention the debuff.  Power attacks apply a -100% debuff to stamina regeneration.  It does not apply while running (-145% debuff while running, by the way).  It lasts for 3 seconds.  Knowing that has saved my bacon more than once.

 

As far as multiple swings go, I fear that's getting into massive spreadsheet territory.  I'm lazy.  😛  I'm surprised I put as much effort into this second post as I did.

 

UPDATE:

Keep in mind that one power attack is generally faster than two normal attacks.  A power attack should also cause the same durability loss as a normal attack.  I'm not sure how to interpret the graze angles, but power attacks may graze more easily and thus be more effective against crowds.

 

This is not meant to be a tier list.

 

UPDATE:

Perhaps it's worth mentioning that most weapons have variable stats.  Most non-primitive weapons have an additional percentile damage modifier of up to +/- 15%.  I don't think the base damage ever varies.  So it's hypothetically possible for a particular quality 1 iron spear (+15%) to deal the same damage as a particular quality 4 iron spear (-15%).

Edited June 28, 2021 by Anxiety123 (see edit history)

[Boidster]

Hey @Anxiety123, are you me?

 

Good job, interesting data.

[meganoth]

Thank you.

 

While the spear and the stun baton (no surprise with the baton as it is tier1 and INT isn't supposed to be a fighter class) are still somewhat left behind,  the rest of the weapons do not trail behind the club in the higher tiers. So it looks much better than I had feared after seeing the primitive weapon numbers

 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

Did you happen to look at the Axes? I know they are technically "tools", but I recall another thread that was posted here that showed their damage range was in roughly the same ballpark as the unperked clubs and sledges of the same material type.

[Anxiety123]

  

8 hours ago, hiemfire said:

Did you happen to look at the Axes?

 

I suppose I can.

 

Item			Base Damage (Power Attack)	Stamina Cost (Power Attack)	Base Damage : Stamina (Power Attack)

Stone Axe		 6.0				 8.0				0.750
Taza's Stone Axe	 8.0				 9.0				0.888

Iron Fireaxe		15.1 (15.1 + 125%)		19.9 (39.9)			0.758 (0.378)
Steel Axe		28.9 (28.9 + 125%)		30.9 (61.7)			0.935 (0.468)

Iron Pickaxe		11.2 (11.2 + 100%)		18.4 (31.3)			0.608 (0.357)
Steel Pickaxe		23.2 (23.2 + 125%)		26.4 (52.7)			0.878 (0.500)

Stone Shovel		 9.6 ( 9.6 + 125%)		16.2 (32.5)			0.592 (0.295)
Iron Shovel		11.6 (11.6 + 125%)		20.3 (40.6)			0.571 (0.285)
Steel Shovel		17.4 (17.4 + 125%)		24.7 (49.3)			0.704 (0.352)

Wrench			16.5 (16.5 + 100%)		18.3 (31.1)			0.901 (0.530)
Ratchet			16.5 (16.5 + 100%)		21.8 (37.0)			0.756 (0.445)
Impact Driver		16.5 (16.5 + 100%)		24.6 (41.9)			0.670 (0.393)

 

Remember that this is entity damage, so we're considering the tools as weapons.

 

The stone axe has no power attack.

 

The fireaxes aren't bad stamina-wise.  Their power attacks also hit slightly harder, just like sledgehammers.

 

The pickaxes have pretty swift power attacks.  There is no AttacksPerMinute debuff for them.  This corroborates my in-game experience.  The steel pickaxe's larger power attack modifier surprised me.

 

High-tier salvage tools are garbage weapons.  If you must salvage skulls, use a wrench.

 

We may as well check block damage.  I'll include sledgehammers since they're good all-purpose block breakers.

 

Item			Block Damage (Power Attack)	Stamina Cost (Power Attack)	Block Damage : Stamina (Power Attack)

Stone Axe		21.5				 8.0				2.687
Taza's Stone Axe	22.6				 9.0				2.511

Iron Fireaxe		45.0 (45.0 + 125%)		19.9 (39.9)			2.261 (1.127)
Steel Axe		86.2 (86.2 + 125%)		30.9 (61.7)			2.789 (1.397)

Iron Pickaxe		35.5 (35.5 + 100%)		18.4 (31.3)			1.929 (1.134)
Steel Pickaxe		62.8 (62.8 + 125%)		26.4 (52.7)			2.378 (1.191)

Stone Shovel		38.4 (38.4 + 125%)		16.2 (32.5)			2.370 (1.181)
Iron Shovel		46.0 (46.0 + 125%)		20.3 (40.6)			2.266 (1.133)
Steel Shovel		69.0 (69.0 + 125%)		24.7 (49.3)			2.793 (1.399)

Wrench			38.5 (38.5 + 100%)		18.3 (31.1)			2.103 (1.237)
Ratchet			48.5 (48.5 + 100%)		21.8 (37.0)			2.224 (1.310)
Impact Driver		58.0 (58.0 + 100%)		24.6 (41.9)			2.357 (1.384)

Stone Sledgehammer	27.2 (27.2 + 125%)		22.3 (44.7)			1.219 (0.608)
Iron Sledgehammer	58.3 (58.3 + 125%)		36.7 (73.4)			1.588 (0.794)
Steel Sledgehammer	85.0 (85.0 + 125%)		40.5 (81.0)			2.097 (1.049)

 

So, the stone axe is one of the most stamina-efficient block breakers.  Too bad it's crap against everything but wood.

 

Salvage tools are the most efficient metal breakers.  I frequently use my wrench to bust metal blocks in POIs.  Apparently that's not a bad idea.

 

Sledgehammers are less efficient than dedicated tools.  I suppose that shouldn't surprise anyone.

 

I don't feel like comparing DPS.  I'll only note that salvage tools are like pickaxes, with no AttacksPerMinute debuff for power attacks.

[hiemfire]

10 hours ago, Anxiety123 said:

I suppose I can.

Thank you for doing so.

 

I got curious so decided to see how these values would be affected by the investment of perk points. Tools do get entity damage bonuses from their perks per what the perks themselves state (They also get the bonus headshot damage and dismember chance from points invested into their governing attributes as well).

 

Note: Values are adjusted based on what is written in the A19.5 maxed perk affecting each item.

 

Adjustment key (x=base value) :
    Additional 50% = 1.5x
    25% less = .75x
    Additional 150% = 2.5x

 

Entity damage:

Item	Perk ADJ Base Damage	Perk ADJ Stamina Cost	Perk ADJ Base Damage : Perk ADJ Stamina
Stone Spear	15.45	13.875	1.114
Iron Spear	18.6	15.225	1.222
Steel Spear	27.9	22.4	1.661
Wooden Club	20.7	13.05	1.586
Baseball Bat	26.1	15.675	1.665
Candy Club	28.8	15.675	1.837
Steel Club	39.3	17.775	2.211
Stone Sledgehammer	26.25	16.725	1.570
Iron Sledgehammer	46.2	27.525	1.678
Steel Sledgehammer	69.3	30.375	2.281
Bare Hands	7.5	7.875	0.952
Knuckle Wraps	9.3	6.825	1.363
Iron Knuckles	13.65	7.2	1.896
Steel Knuckles	20.4	7.65	2.667
Bone Knife	7.65	5.475	1.397
Hunting Knife	9.15	6.15	1.488
Candy Knife	9.9	6.15	1.610
Machete	29.7	14.4	2.063
Stun Baton	16.2	11.625	1.394
Stone Axe	9.0	6.0	1.5
Taza's Stone Axe	12.0	6.75	1.778
Iron Fireaxe	22.65	14.925	1.518
Steel Axe	43.35	23.175	1.871
Iron Pickaxe	16.8	13.8	1.217
Steel Pickaxe	34.8	19.8	1.758
Stone Shovel	14.4	12.15	1.185
Iron Shovel	17.4	15.225	1.143
Steel Shovel	26.1	18.525	1.409
Wrench	24.75	13.725	1.803
Ratchet	24.75	16.35	1.514
Impact Driver	24.75	18.45	1.341

 

Block Damage of mentioned tools and sledgehammers:

 

Item	Perk Adj Block Damage	Perk Adj Stamina Cost	Perk Adj Block Damage : Stamina
Stone Axe	53.75	6.0	8.958
Taza's Stone Axe	56.5	6.75	8.370
Iron Fireaxe	112.5	14.925	7.537
Steel Axe	215.5	23.175	9.299
Iron Pickaxe	88.75	13.8	6.431
Steel Pickaxe	157.0	19.8	7.929
Stone Shovel	96.0	12.15	7.901
Iron Shovel	115.0	15.225	7.553
Steel Shovel	172.5	18.525	9.312
*Wrench	77.0	13.725	5.610
*Ratchet	97.0	16.35	5.933
*Impact Driver	116.0	18.45	6.287
**Stone Sledgehammer	27.2	16.725	1.626
**Iron Sledgehammer	58.3	27.525	2.118
**Steel Sledgehammer	85.0	30.375	2.798

 

* Per Salvage Operations perk: "harvest 100% faster". I'm calling this 2x block damage since that is what makes the most sense to me.

** Sledgehammers do not have any perk based block damage bonuses that I could find so I'm going with base block damage value.

Edited June 29, 2021 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[Anxiety123]

13 hours ago, hiemfire said:

[tables]

 

Teach me this HTML wizardry.

 

As for the content, it sounds like you're relying on the perk descriptions.  Here's an example of the actual XML data for Pummel Pete.

 

<passive_effect name="BlockDamage" operation="perc_add" level="1,5" value=".2,1" tags="perkPummelPete"/>
<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" level="1,5" value=".1,.5" tags="perkPummelPete"/>

 

The percentile modifier starts at "1".  This might be hard-coded.  I didn't see where it was set.  Many other values are explicitly set in the playerMale entity.

 

Anyway, you then run all the "perc_set", "perc_add", "perc_subtract" operations.  The order is explained in "XML.txt".  "perc_set" is the assignment operator.  The others do what it says on the tin.

Spoiler

From 'XML.txt':

GENERAL computational order for determining effects and their magnitude, order of operations (OOO)

If NO ENTITY is known and ONLY an item is passed to the code:
	1. the item in question including installed mods

If AN ENTITY is doing something, using items, or merely standing around:
	1. Entity Class
	2. the item in question including installed mods (if an item is passed in)
	3. held item  including installed mods, if not equal to the item in question
	4. worn items  including installed mods
	5. player progression (skills, perks...)
	6. buffs
	7. bonus damage such as for headshots or attacking specific block materials (see below)
	8. game difficulty modifier
	9. armor reduces damage

On PASSIVE effects, the order is also affected by the TYPE of operation.
	- A "base_set" should be placed first in the OOO... because it overwrites any previous changes in the OOO. Duh.
	- Any base_set|base_add|base_subtract take effect immediately as the list is traversed.

	- Any and all perc_set|perc_add|perc_subtract are COLLECTED into a separate variable and applied after last as one modifier.

 

 

So if the only damage modifier for your quality 1 club is coming from Pummel Pete, and you have all 5 ranks of it, then we should be able to calculate your damage like so:

From entity 'playerMale':
<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_set" value="1"/>
<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" value="1" tags="head"/>

From item 'meleeWpnClubT0WoodenClub':
<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="base_set" value="13.8"/>
<passive_effect name="ModPowerBonus" operation="perc_add" value=".10" tags="EntityDamage,BlockDamage"/>
<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" value=".1,.5" tier="2,6" tags="perkPummelPete"/>
<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" value="1" tags="secondary"/>

From attribute 'attStrength':
<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" level="2,8" value="0.1,.7" tags="head"/>
<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" level="9,10" value=".85,1" tags="head"/>

From perk 'perkPummelPete':
<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" level="1,5" value=".1,.5" tags="perkPummelPete"/>
<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" level="1,5" value="0.4,2" tags="perkPummelPete">
	<requirement name="CVarCompare" cvar="_stunned" operation="Equals" value="1" target="other"/>
</passive_effect>

Base Value:
13.8	base_set in meleeWpnClubT0WoodenClub

Percentile Value:
 1	hardcoded?
+0	= 0 (weapon mods) x .10 ModPowerBonus
+0	perc_add for quality tier only affects tiers 2-6 and our club is quality 1
+1	if power attack ("secondary")
+.5	Pummel Pete rank 5
+2	Pummel Pete rank 5 if target is stunned

Damage Modifier Value:
 1	default value for player entity
+1	if headshot
+1	Strength rank 10

Final Value = Base x Percentile x Modifier

 

So our final damage for various attacks against unarmored targets should be:

Type of Swing	Hit Location	Is Target Stunned ?	Final Damage

Normal		Body		No			 20.7 = 13.8 x 1.5 x 1
Normal		Body		Yes			 48.3 = 13.8 x 3.5 x 1

Normal		Head		No			 62.1 = 13.8 x 1.5 x 3
Normal		Head		Yes			144.9 = 13.8 x 3.5 x 3

Power Attack	Body		No			 34.5 = 13.8 x 2.5 x 1
Power Attack	Body		Yes			 62.1 = 13.8 x 4.5 x 1

Power Attack	Head		No			103.5 = 13.8 x 2.5 x 3
Power Attack	Head		Yes			186.3 = 13.8 x 4.5 x 3

 

Again, that's an unmodded tier 1 wooden club wielded by someone with Strength 10 and Pummel Pete 5.

 

Side note:  Skull Crusher does improve the block damage of sledgehammers.  Most (all?) weapon perks improve BlockDamage.  Maybe some descriptions fail to mention it.

Spoiler

From perk 'perkSkullCrusher':
<passive_effect name="BlockDamage" operation="perc_add" level="1,5" value=".2,1" tags="perkSkullCrusher" />

 

 

UPDATE:

For completeness, I should probably add some stamina info:

From item 'meleeWpnClubT0WoodenClub':
<passive_effect name="StaminaLoss" operation="base_set" value="17.4" tags="primary"/>
<passive_effect name="StaminaLoss" operation="base_set" value="26.1" tags="secondary"/>

From perk 'perkSexualTrex':
<passive_effect name="StaminaLoss" operation="perc_add" level="1,2,3,4" value="-.08,-.15,-.2,-.25"/>
<passive_effect name="StaminaLoss" operation="perc_add" level="1,2,3,4" value="-.07,-.15,-.2,-.25" tags="secondary"/>

 

So the stamina costs for rank 0 (i.e. haven't bought SexRex) and rank 5 should be:

Type of Swing	SexRex Rank	Stamina Cost

Normal		0		17.40 = 17.4 x 1
Power Attack	0		26.10 = 26.1 x 1
Normal		5		13.05 = 17.4 x (1 -.25)
Power Attack	5		13.05 = 26.1 x (1 -.25 -.25)

 

EDIT:

I had to fix an error.  I included the Strength headshot damage in some body shot calculations.  Oops.

 

Also, bug report:  It seems like every time I edit a post with a code block inside a spoiler block, the code block gets prepended with an empty line.  Weird.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Anxiety123 (see edit history)

[meganoth]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percentile . Are you sure you want to say percentile and not percentage? For the moment I'm assuming you are using the two terms as synonyms.

 

You say "The percentile modifier [of pummel pete] starts at "1". ". Which somewhat clashes with the percentage modifier starting with ".1" which translates to 10%, which I assume is exactly what the text for the perk promises.

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Anxiety123]

Yes.  Percentage, not percentile.  Will fix.  Can't edit the posts, apparently.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Anxiety123 (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

10 hours ago, Anxiety123 said:

Teach me this HTML wizardry

I didn't do anything that special. 2 buttons to the right of the font size option when you're writing a post is the button. It is between the "Remove Format" one and the "Page" button. Lots of copying and pasting into the tables themselves is involved. It was that or a really bad copy pasta of the text from Notepad.

 

10 hours ago, Anxiety123 said:

As for the content, it sounds like you're relying on the perk descriptions.

I think I said that in that post above the first table. If you look the Normal, Bodyshot, Unstunned value from your calculations is what is on my chart for the wooden club - first column with the same stamina values as in your "Normal" line on my table's wooden club - second column. Since I don't touch .xmls I didn't know how the cumulative effects of the adjustments were layered or what other modifiers outside of what is in the in game text there are, so I stuck to just adjusting normal damage based on the text of the 5 point perk for the weapon and adjusting the stamina based on 5 point Sex Rex.

 

Though looking at this part: "- Any and all perc_set|perc_add|perc_subtract are COLLECTED into a separate variable and applied after last as one modifier."

I think you goofed in setting up Percentage and Modifiers as separate variables in your equation. They're all tagged as perc_add or perc_set and should be combined into one variable.

Edited June 30, 2021 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

The engineer in me is saying Cool Data!!!

 

The gamer in me is saying, okay.....but which melee weapon do I want to enjoy playing with this playthrough.

 

The gamer always wins for some reason  😁

[Anxiety123]

8 hours ago, hiemfire said:

Though looking at this part: "- Any and all perc_set|perc_add|perc_subtract are COLLECTED into a separate variable and applied after last as one modifier."

I think you goofed in setting up Percentage and Modifiers as separate variables in your equation. They're all tagged as perc_add or perc_set and should be combined into one variable.

 

I don't think that's correct.  The 'name' value tells you what the effect is modifying.  It may be EntityDamage, BlockDamage, StaminaLoss, DamageModifier, or whatever.  ModPowerBonus is a bit odd, but I think it adjusts EntityDamage and BlockDamage (see the 'tags') multiple times, once for each equipped weapon mod.  Anyway, most damage effects adjust EntityDamage, but headshot bonuses affect DamageModifier instead.  The 'perc_add' effects for one should not affect the other, just as StaminaLoss effects don't change BlockDamage.  The final damage dealt uses both EntityDamage (alternately, BlockDamage) and DamageModifier.

 

I'm either confused or inarticulate.  I'm not sure which.  I suppose the numbers above could be verified in-game with the console.  Play on Nomad difficulty, so there's no difficulty adjustment to damage (so I've read).  Find a zombie, check its health ('LE' in the console).  Land a direct hit;  don't graze it.  Check its health again.  Compare results.

[hiemfire]

On PASSIVE effects, the order is also affected by the TYPE of operation.
	- A "base_set" should be placed first in the OOO... because it overwrites any previous changes in the OOO. Duh.
	- Any base_set|base_add|base_subtract take effect immediately as the list is traversed.

	- Any and all perc_set|perc_add|perc_subtract are COLLECTED into a separate variable and applied after last as one modifier.

Above is the full section of what I'm referring to, quoted from your spoiler. Below is from your examples.

 

From entity 'playerMale':
<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_set" value="1"/>
<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" value="1" tags="head"/>

From item 'meleeWpnClubT0WoodenClub':
<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="base_set" value="13.8"/>
<passive_effect name="ModPowerBonus" operation="perc_add" value=".10" tags="EntityDamage,BlockDamage"/>
<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" value=".1,.5" tier="2,6" tags="perkPummelPete"/>
<passive_effect name="EntityDamage" operation="perc_add" value="1" tags="secondary"/>

From attribute 'attStrength':
<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" level="2,8" value="0.1,.7" tags="head"/>
<passive_effect name="DamageModifier" operation="perc_add" level="9,10" value=".85,1" tags="head"/>

Notice how "base_set", "perc_set" and "perc_add" are in the "operation" section and not the "name" section. That tells me where in the derived equations they belong while the name is what the operations are effecting or the source of the variable for the calculation.

 

Example: Damage= x+y x(y) @%$#, swapped operations /facepalm

                     x= base_set + base_add + base_subtract

                     y= perc_set + perc_add + perc_subtract

If you check I have no doubt that first name="BlockDamage" for a weapon or tool is also followed on the same exact line as operation="base_set".

Something like this, using the stone axe as the example:

<passive_effect name="BlockDamage" operation="base_set" value="21.5"/>

Edited July 1, 2021 by hiemfire
fixed a equation mistake (see edit history)

[meganoth]

I'm not sure what detail you are discussing right now, but I agree with hiemfire, he is right about how it works internally.

 

For entity damage you have exactly one base damage that is determined by type of weapon, quality and a random modifier. All other effects (the "adds") are all percentages that are added together and then adjust that base damage. Though you could calculate it differently and multiply each percentage with the base damage first and then sum up all these small (percentage*base damage) values.

 

There is one exception (or the only one I remember) and that is the percentage from difficulty that is applied on the final value.

 

 

[hiemfire]

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

I'm not sure what detail you are discussing right now

How the headshot damage multiplier is applied.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, hiemfire said:

How the headshot damage multiplier is applied.

 

Ah, okay. It is just a percentage that is added, like you said.

 

If base damage is lets say 25 and perks provide 40% damage bonus then a headshot bonus of 200% will be added to the 40%, which is 240%. And the result will be 340% damage total which would be 85

 

[theFlu]

37 minutes ago, meganoth said:

And the result will be 340% damage total which would be 85

I intuitively disagree here, and I did some hits..

Had a steel club with listed damage of 40. (Some mods in it.. the numbers are odd)

No skill points: body shot: 40, head shot 80.

1/5 in pummel pete (+10%): 43 body damage (I'm not asking...) .. 86 head

10/10 str: 43 body, 129 head

5/5 Pummel (+50%): 53 body damage (still not asking...) .. 159 head.

 

So the headshot damage is consistently multiplied by either 2 or 3 when compared to the body shot. Not exactly proof of anything yet, but I'd expect some of those not to line up perfectly if the headshot multi was just added to the pummel pete multi.

 

EDIT: Repeated quickly without mods, with a club with 30 listed damage. Essentially the same result, except the 5/5 Pete was doing 43 damage while even the lowest case of 29.5*1,5 > 44 ... Math and 7 days to die .. it might be rounding down before applying the Pete modifier, 29*1.5 would be 43.5 ...

Edited July 2, 2021 by theFlu (see edit history)

[meganoth]

I tried to find a statement from a dev about this, but the only thread I found was one in march where you presented numbers just like now and I was surprised that headshot percentages were applied after.

 

[hiemfire]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

I intuitively disagree here, and I did some hits..

Had a steel club with listed damage of 40. (Some mods in it.. the numbers are odd)

No skill points: body shot: 40, head shot 80.

1/5 in pummel pete (+10%): 43 body damage (I'm not asking...) .. 86 head

10/10 str: 43 body, 129 head

5/5 Pummel (+50%): 53 body damage (still not asking...) .. 159 head.

 

So the headshot damage is consistently multiplied by either 2 or 3 when compared to the body shot. Not exactly proof of anything yet, but I'd expect some of those not to line up perfectly if the headshot multi was just added to the pummel pete multi.

 

EDIT: Repeated quickly without mods, with a club with 30 listed damage. Essentially the same result, except the 5/5 Pete was doing 43 damage while even the lowest case of 29.5*1,5 > 44 ... Math and 7 days to die .. it might be rounding down before applying the Pete modifier, 29*1.5 would be 43.5 ...

Were any of the attacks done to a stunned zombie. That'd increase the part added to the second variable by Pummel Pete an additional 2.

There is also the possibility that the zombie you were hitting has some damage reduction.

Edited July 2, 2021 by hiemfire
mismathed something and an idea. (see edit history)

[meganoth]

nada

 

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

6 minutes ago, hiemfire said:

Were any of the attacks done to a stunned zombie.

Nope, each separate hit was done to a fresh clone of a certain poorly dressed zombie. Makes re-checking any values a little easier as the zed carries the data for me.

[hiemfire]

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

 

You misread my calculation. I was increasing damage by 240% and therefore with 100% base damage got 340% or as you said it multiplier would be 3.4. So you did the "add 100%"-schtick once more after I did it and complained that it would be wrong. In reality we both did the calculation correctly and arrived at a multiplier of 3.4.

 

25 * 3.4 is 85, exactly what I said.

 

 

 

I caught that already and edited it.

2 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Nope, each separate hit was done to a fresh clone of a certain poorly dressed zombie. Makes re-checking any values a little easier as the zed carries the data for me.

What was the difficulty set at?

17 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I tried to find a statement from a dev about this, but the only thread I found was one in march where you presented numbers just like now and I was surprised that headshot percentages were applied after.

 

Me? I don't recall that one. I also searched for it. What was the search terms you used?