Pipe bombs too strong?

[masarius]

Hello fellow survivors!

 

What are your thoughts on pipe bombs? 

 

I feel that they make hordes way too easy, simply due to the fact that they are really cheap to craft and hit like a truck. Even if you don't find the recipe, it only takes one point to get them.

 

Even hordes after day 100 are more or less easy to handle with them and there seems no reason for me to craft grenades.

 

(playing on max diff and horde 64)

[Darklegend222]

32 minutes ago, masarius said:

Hello fellow survivors!

 

What are your thoughts on pipe bombs? 

 

I feel that they make hordes way too easy, simply due to the fact that they are really cheap to craft and hit like a truck. Even if you don't find the recipe, it only takes one point to get them.

 

Even hordes after day 100 are more or less easy to handle with them and there seems no reason for me to craft grenades.

 

(playing on max diff and horde 64)

I disagree. You have to mine nitrate, coal, and have the ability to craft gunpowder. You also have to take into the account that a pipebomb only does 5 blocks of radial damage.. it is literally a giant tube FILLED with gunpowder, while a grenade is a small ball dedicated for shrapnel.

 

The devs want everyone to be able to use anything. And explosives are mostly  craftable, there are people who like pipe bombs and people who don't. I don't really like them since there is cooler stuff in the game, you should look into something else.

 

Have you even seen the dynamite? In the real world, you couldn't throw anything above a 1/2 stick of dynamite far enough away without getting somewhat hurt/annihilated. Explosives are NOT a joke and are a utility.

[doughphunghus]

33 minutes ago, Darklegend222 said:

I disagree. You have to mine nitrate, coal, and have the ability to craft gunpowder. You also have to take into the account that a pipebomb only does 5 blocks of radial damage.. it is literally a giant tube FILLED with gunpowder, while a grenade is a small ball dedicated for shrapnel.

 

The devs want everyone to be able to use anything. And explosives are mostly  craftable, there are people who like pipe bombs and people who don't. I don't really like them since there is cooler stuff in the game, you should look into something else.

 

Have you even seen the dynamite? In the real world, you couldn't throw anything above a 1/2 stick of dynamite far enough away without getting somewhat hurt/annihilated. Explosives are NOT a joke and are a utility.

I agree about the “danger” of using them. I made a few mods to change up how (some) explosives feel/work with plans to make them all more dangerous, but I didn’t end up doing them all (maybe someday I’ll upload more of them)

 

Reasoning: I feel the game explosives are almost too easy to use. They easily hurt/kill zeds but generally they lose no danger “to you” unless you make a mistake and step on a mine or throw a grenade too close to yourself.   I also feel explosives should be a “higher skill weapon” or “tool” vs standard weapons. Like, if you’re going to craft and make explosives, you need to be really careful and can’t toss them around like water balloons.
 

anyway, I found that upping explosive block damage (a lot) and radius (a bit) and the “how far you can throw/launch” them (big booms = harder to throw far and/or launch) while also increasing “entity damage radius” to be a few more blocks than block damage made them feel really dangerous to use, and even though I could craft a ton of them if I wanted, suddenly the increased danger of using them made me want to only have a few on hand, and only used in very special situations, because if you were sloppy with them, you died. 
 

additionally, the (very much) increased block damage meant if you wants to use them for horde nights (or just clearing POIs) you ran a real danger of destroying your base or the poi (and maybe your traps/kill corridors/generators/etc) and all the ground around it (big holes).

 

anyway, I played around with every explosive in the game and felt that actually making them more powerful (and scaling up ingredients as much as made sense) seemed to work better than nerfing them by making them harder to craft but leaving the default explosion damage alone. 

 

it was very pleasant to take out a big chunk of a POi with a rocket launcher, or by shooting barrels from far away... and to be really careful to not accidentally shoot one

 

however, since people are jerks/trolls I have heard that stuff like this will only work on non public servers, due to the massive block damage, which is why I believe TFP makes them not do much block damage by default, and probably PvP/multiplayer is why they work the way they do with damage, etc. and also “so everyone can use them” as mentioned above.

 

also: really high block damage and radius usually results in severe game lag.  I maintain a “holy hand grenade” mod that had like 30+ block radius and leaves a hole so large you can see it like a star shaped crack in the earth if you fly over it.  But I had to tone it down as people were legit complaining about the lag. I think it’s 20-23? Blocks radius now, which has some lag still but is somewhat useable. 

Edited April 24, 2021 by doughphunghus (see edit history)

[Darklegend222]

5 minutes ago, doughphunghus said:

I agree about the “danger” of using them. I made a few mods to change up how (some) explosives feel/work with plans to make them all more dangerous, but I didn’t end up doing them all (maybe someday I’ll upload more of them)

 

Reasoning: I feel the game explosives are almost too easy to use. They easily hurt/kill zeds but generally they lose no danger “to you” unless you make a mistake and step on a mine or throw a grenade too close to yourself.   I also feel explosives should be a “higher skill weapon” or “tool” vs standard weapons. Like, if you’re going to craft and make explosives, you need to be really careful and can’t toss them around like water balloons.
 

anyway, I found that upping explosive block damage (a lot) and radius (a bit) and the “how far you can throw/launch” them (big booms = harder to throw far and/or launch) while also increasing “entity damage radius” to be a few more blocks than block damage made them feel really dangerous to use, and even though I could craft a ton of them if I wanted, suddenly the increased danger of using them made me want to only have a few on hand, and only used in very special situations, because if you were sloppy with them, you died. 
 

additionally, the (very much) increased block damage meant if you wants to use them for horde nights (or just clearing POIs) you ran a real danger of destroying your base or the poi (and maybe your traps/kill corridors/generators/etc) and all the ground around it (big holes).

 

anyway, I played around with every explosive in the game and felt that actually making them more powerful (and scaling up ingredients as much as made sense) seemed to work better than needing them.

 

ita very pleasant to take out a big chunk of a POi with a rocket launcher, or by shooting barrels from far away... and to be really careful to not accidentally shoot one

 

however, since people are jerks/trolls I have heard that stuff like this will only work on non public servers, due to the massive block damage, which is why I believe TFP makes them not do much block damage by default, and probably PvP/multiplayer is why they work the way they do with damage, etc. and also “so everyone can use them” as mentioned above.

 

also: really high block damage and radius usually results in severe game lag.  I maintain a “holy hand grenade” mod that had like 30+ block radius and leaves a hole so large you can see it like a star shaped crack in the earth if you fly over it.  But I had to tone it down as people were legit complaining about the lag. I think it’s 20-23? Blocks radius now, which has some lag still but is somewhat useable. 

That's cool and all, but has no place in the main game. It's practical the way they have the game setup. If your looking for something op, dynamite is also available in the game. It's not an "explosive always wins", every single class is viable in the game. And as I've said, explosives are utility. People aren't supposed to run around with rocket launchers and pipe bombs.

 

As for your "it's usable but people complain about lag" just because you don't have lag, doesn't mean other people have a lower download/upload.

 

If i host a server on gigabit (1000 mega bits) and someone connects with 25mbps, they're not receiving all of my 1000. They're only getting 25. Be courteous and don't cause lag where it is not needed.

[doughphunghus]

1 minute ago, Darklegend222 said:

That's cool and all, but has no place in the main game. It's practical the way they have the game setup. If your looking for something op, dynamite is also available in the game. It's not an "explosive always wins", every single class is viable in the game. And as I've said, explosives are utility. People aren't supposed to run around with rocket launchers and pipe bombs.

 

As for your "it's usable but people complain about lag" just because you don't have lag, doesn't mean other people have a lower download/upload.

 

If i host a server on gigabit (1000 mega bits) and someone connects with 25mbps, they're not receiving all of my 1000. They're only getting 25. Be courteous and don't cause lag where it is not needed.

 I guess what I was trying to say (but not too cleanly) was that explosives are likely the way they are today because of PvP and (I didn’t actually say this part) balance..... but if one did not like the current explosives, I suggest modding them more dangerous rather than a lot harder to craft/obtain, but in doing that you’re going to have to have it on your own private server as it’s not going to work well if anyone but you and actual friends play on it (and no one wants to die). If taken too far (danger wise) you will likely run a real risk of really bad lag. 
 

and I agree with the dynamite: the vanilla version is very dangerous and damaging in game, which feels nice (to me) vs just being another explosive to throw and not damage blocks very much like the others.

[canadianbluebeer]

I find them hilarious to use for hordenight.

 

The junkyard POIs  have the sunken bay (from auto repair type shops)..

 

With the right setup, the zeds tend to flock to that since they can't get to you and you just toss a bunch into that bay,, then 1 to set them all off.

I've bounced zeds off the ceiling doing that. 

 

Hilarious.

 

Trick is getting them into a nice cluster to make it worthwhile.

 

As for throw distance, block dmg etc:   not realistic with explosives yes.  10 zombies all stacked into hitting ONE block isn't realistic either.

(which is why I cut their block dmg to 25%)

 

Dynamite:  huge block damage.  used for clearing a road/shortcut through a mountain. WILL gen screamers fast though. (what a surprise)

Grenades: don't use much, so dunno.

Pipe Bombs:  a fun thing. use a lot.  (just like in Duke Nukem 3D.)    Used on horde nights only, no screamers during that.

 

So no, they are not too strong.

 

oh, I play MY way, you play YOURS.  As long as we're having fun, both ways are fine. 

(you in the the generic sense)

 

[Kyonshi]

20 hours ago, canadianbluebeer said:

I find them hilarious to use for hordenight.

 

The junkyard POIs  have the sunken bay (from auto repair type shops)..

 

With the right setup, the zeds tend to flock to that since they can't get to you and you just toss a bunch into that bay,, then 1 to set them all off.

I've bounced zeds off the ceiling doing that. 

 

Hilarious.

 

Trick is getting them into a nice cluster to make it worthwhile.

 

As for throw distance, block dmg etc:   not realistic with explosives yes.  10 zombies all stacked into hitting ONE block isn't realistic either.

(which is why I cut their block dmg to 25%)

 

Dynamite:  huge block damage.  used for clearing a road/shortcut through a mountain. WILL gen screamers fast though. (what a surprise)

Grenades: don't use much, so dunno.

Pipe Bombs:  a fun thing. use a lot.  (just like in Duke Nukem 3D.)    Used on horde nights only, no screamers during that.

 

So no, they are not too strong.

 

oh, I play MY way, you play YOURS.  As long as we're having fun, both ways are fine. 

(you in the the generic sense)

 

Exactly. They have their place in the game and they're fun to use. Their utility is to clean groups of zombies getting too large and threatening. The fact that the damage is oriented more against entities than structures kinda tells for what they're for.

 

The game bases itself on certain real-life parameters and concepts but we also have to consider suspension of disbelief.... I myself play games to escape reality and its fun when you can stretch nature laws around (when its well made of course). I dont play them to keep being restricted and constricted into real life. If one really wanna restrain themselves into reality, i would say 7DtD isnt the game for them.

 

Pipe Bombs are cheap and rudimentary explosives. They shouldnt be gated behind high levels, by being too dangerous or demanding large quantities of components. I would maybe relegate them to the second level instead of the first in Demolition but that's it. They are less complex than regular and Contact Grenades, Dynamite and Timed Charges and its fine like that because they also do less damage. And its fine like that. They're still dangerous enough to keep away from the explosion, i still dont take them likely even if they're easily accessible.

 

They do are easy to make compared to more complex devices but still, you cant have them as quickly as you find Glass Jars. You have to find Gunpowder or make some and get Pipes (by either crafting them in a Forge, wrenching cars or bed frames/sinks). And its just fine like that.

Edited April 26, 2021 by Kyonshi (see edit history)

[Kattla]

On 4/24/2021 at 9:07 PM, masarius said:

Hello fellow survivors!

 

What are your thoughts on pipe bombs? 

 

I feel that they make hordes way too easy, simply due to the fact that they are really cheap to craft and hit like a truck. Even if you don't find the recipe, it only takes one point to get them.

 

Even hordes after day 100 are more or less easy to handle with them and there seems no reason for me to craft grenades.

 

(playing on max diff and horde 64)

 

grata superstes.

 

The strength of the pipebombs and grenades are also due to the fact that they can stack. Toss down a few unlit PB's or grenades, and then a lit one to set them all off. Since grenades do more damage pr unit, it might be worth using them once the zombies get stronger (radiated ones). Besides, late game i am usually overflowing with resources anyway, so making stacks of grenades isn't a problem. 

 

Can also be entertaining to try different approaches to horde fighting, instead of just doing the same all the time.

 

My thoughts, perhaps the amount we can stack up before triggering them makes pipebombs a little bit OP. But what seem OP when playing warrior difficulty with 24 zombies might be just about right if playing 64 zombies at insane. At least pipebombs are a viable alternative to using guns, and i hope they stay that way.