Limdood Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 Existence of random stats completely invalidates that. You might craft much better one with more mod slots then you have found. Or worse one. Random stats. please keep in mind the OP was posted in B143, at the time there were no random stats. The devs have since made it CRYSTAL clear that they want looting to be strictly superior to crafting. I disagree HARD, but I'm not the maker of the game, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psychodabble Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 You're looking at it from a logical stand point and not a game play stand point. Sure, needing parts to craft a baseball bat is silly... but the point is to control access to better tools and weapons. Tier 3 weapons and tools require uncraftable parts to delay people's access to them. The easiest fix here is to make the tier 3 bashing weapons something OTHER than a baseball bat. It just doesn't make sense on any level. Make it a mace or a morningstar of some sort: If it looks sexy, it becomes WAY less unbelievable that it requires special parts. The skill books can stay baseball themed. - - - Updated - - - People complained about having no reason to loot, so they added parts. I welcome that. Let them work it through. Here's an idea....parts can be consumed by 'adding' them to an existing item. This addition will have a random effect which will improve that item. Maybe it will do as little as bump one stat by +1... or as much as add another mod slot. RNG. Or perhaps the number of parts you consume pays the price of various augments available, so you can save them up for that extra mod slot. You can of course just craft a new item with them as well. I like this idea a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalen Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 I asked you what you were worried about people getting access to and you said "lots of things". Have I since convinced you that there is no reason to be worried? That's great to hear. I'm so happy I could ease your mind about this. Now let us sit back and both enjoy this wonderful game that TFPs have brought us. I'll bring the beer if you want to grill up some meat. Yup, my bad for not reading your question in its entirety. I took it to mean what does a trader have that is valuable and thats not what you asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 The easiest fix here is to make the tier 3 bashing weapons something OTHER than a baseball bat. It just doesn't make sense on any level. Make it a mace or a morningstar of some sort: If it looks sexy, it becomes WAY less unbelievable that it requires special parts. The skill books can stay baseball themed. - - - Updated - - - I like this idea a lot. i would be cool if there some Blueprints and books you can find that allow you to make these weapons. or even just craft with skills Stone Iron and steel maces. do a mix of blunt and bleed and great against armor Bone , iron and steel tomahawk: able to be thrown or melee and it does a nice cripple damage. stone , iron and steel swords: slower then a knife but it causes some nice decapitation. Wood , iron and steel shields. able to just uses the shield to block some damage! or put it on another slot and also uses another weapon. say a club but you can only uses power attacks and block! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 People complained about having no reason to loot, so they added parts. I welcome that. Let them work it through. Parts had been in the game in A16 and before, but only for firearms, the auger, the chainsaw and the nail gun. The parts could be combined and replaced and so the quality of the weapons and tools slowly increased. In the new system you have to make the weapons and tools completely new each time. And the higher the quality you can make, the more parts you need. If you scrap the weapons / tools you only get a small amount of parts back. Therefore it is a waste of parts to make these weapons / tools before you reach the maximum quality level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 I'm not worried about anything.... I'm pointing out possible reasons why TFP may want to limit how many high tier items you can craft. And what exactly is wrong with spam crafting stuff and selling to the trader? If I want to play like that, let me? I don't....but choice is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalen Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 And what exactly is wrong with spam crafting stuff and selling to the trader? If I want to play like that, let me? I don't....but choice is good. Nothing as far as I'm concerned. I liked spam crafting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 The devs have since made it CRYSTAL clear that they want looting to be strictly superior to crafting. I disagree HARD, but I'm not the maker of the game, so... Why? I mean risk vs reward? Just curious. Looting should always be better in my mind. - - - Updated - - - Parts had been in the game in A16 and before, but only for firearms, the auger, the chainsaw and the nail gun. The parts could be combined and replaced and so the quality of the weapons and tools slowly increased. Don't know about you, but I LOVED that. A16 was the best alpha; mechanics-wise I mean, not content-wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalen Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Why? I mean risk vs reward? Just curious. Looting should always be better in my mind. Disagree.... crafting requires much more investment in time and resources. You have to spend the skill points on the relevant perks (which you now don't spend on other survival type perks), you then have to gather the resources (which, in some cases, requires looting), you then have to craft the item (sometimes using a workbench which requires finding one or crafting one). All that is far more involved than opening a container and finding an item. So I've always felt that looting and crafting should be on par. All that said, I'm ok with the changes A18 have brought as long as Q6 gear is very very rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limdood Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 Why? I mean risk vs reward? Just curious. Looting should always be better in my mind. Roland pointed out in a different thread that the "official" reason was twofold: 1) because several other prominent and successful games rewarded the best quality gear only from looting and 2) because they wanted to push exploration and leaving the base more. Again, I don't agree at all, but those are the stated official reasons, according to Roland (who, if you see this thread and I mis-spoke, feel free to correct me) ~~~EDIT:~~~ whoops, I misunderstood. I thought you had asked the reason they've made it clear looting should be better. The reasons I disagree: 1) looting is random. you head out, and you find random gear. You can improve your chances, you can adapt to what you find, but at it's core you're still relying on every container NOT dropping stun batons, double barrel shotguns, and helmet light mods. You don't have any consistent means to put EFFORT towards a specific goal. 2) crafting WAS a non-exploratory, exclusive to INT activity in A17. Now that they've added: a) item parts b) loot-only schematics c) craft quality split among dozens of skills in all 5 attributes They "solved" the problem. There is no more encouragement to go strictly into INT just for high quality gear. They're making crafting stations easier and easier to get (but still able to be consistently gained with extra bonuses through skills), people can only be GREAT at crafting a relatively small variety of items, the rest will be mediocre at best. People can only craft the highest TIER of items through loot-only schematics and lootable/scrappable parts. The ILLUSION of the hermit crafter doesn't even exist anymore. And quality never needed to factor in. 3) Crafting at the top end takes an investment. It takes sacrifice of other options. If Q6 items were craftable, as they were in B149, a given player can still only craft a few different items at that quality. You won't be running around with a self-crafted Q6 spear, M60, military armor, wrench, and mining tools. Not to mention that in order to get the top tier of most items, you still need to have accrued a vast quantity of item parts and found the relevant schematic. 4) many of those other games have difficult, skill- or teamwork-based challenges required for the chance to get that "best loot." 7DTD simply doesn't. These aren't item "drops" from boss zombies at the ends of high level POIs....these are items found in often unlocked chests and crates at an easily accessible room in a building that can often be looted with little to no fighting. It's a destructible voxel game. placing items in a LOCATION just won't work. It is, and will always be, too easy to access any given location in the game from several different avenues. Many of those other games restrict those top tier items to people who have had to do some challenge, some quest, some raid, kill some boss, in order to get the gear....7dtd just makes you get to a place. 5) while many zombie trope games and movies DO center around finding pre-apocalypse gear and scavenging use from it, there is also plenty of examples in these tropes of survivors having a goal of becoming self sufficient, and often MacGuyvering some insanely effective makeshift gear out of the bits and bobs they find. After all, while the immediate goal is survival by any means necessary, it feels like the viewer/player is supposed to always understand that scavenging just will not last. raiding a supermarket will eventually run out of food. Ammo will eventually run out. Irreplaceable items will eventually break. Therefore there is always the silent, subtle, but pervasive encouragement to STOP scooping up the detritus of a dead civilization, and START finding ways to produce as much as you can, on your own, without reliance on luck or finding things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Disagree.... crafting requires much more investment in time and resources. You'd be investing that time and collecting resources anyway. You have to spend the skill points on the relevant perks (which you now don't spend on other survival type perks) The perks in question also boost your ability to use that item, so there is no waste here. I presume if you are willing to invest in crafting a thing, you plan to use it a lot. You'd be taking those perks anyway. you then have to craft the item (sometimes using a workbench which requires finding one or crafting one) But again, you'd be building a workbench anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalen Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 You'd be investing that time and collecting resources anyway. The perks in question also boost your ability to use that item, so there is no waste here. I presume if you are willing to invest in crafting a thing, you plan to use it a lot. You'd be taking those perks anyway. But again, you'd be building a workbench anyway. What does the fact that you're going to do these things any way matter? You're going to loot any way also. You've still spent time and resources that you could've spent elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 If crafting could produce the best items, you would hit a point where you never needed to loot again. That was A17. Most people hated it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalen Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 If crafting could produce the best items, you would hit a point where you never needed to loot again. That was A17. Most people hated it. And yet if you loot the best item you never need to loot again.... whats the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 If crafting could produce the best items, you would hit a point where you never needed to loot again. That was A17. Most people hated it. i think stuff you find should be better. like some random stats like more or less durability , damage , range , block damage, attack speed , ammo count , etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 And yet if you loot the best item you never need to loot again.... whats the difference? Because if crafting can produce the best items, then crafting every best item in the game (that you care about) is guaranteed. You even know exactly when it will happen!! Every play-through is now the same. Looting will always be RNG and never guaranteed. And yes I agree that the current tier 6 looting rate is OP, but that's a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalen Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Because if crafting can produce the best items, then crafting every best item in the game (that you care about) is guaranteed. You even know exactly when it will happen!! Every play-through is now the same. Looting will always be RNG and never guaranteed. And yes I agree that the current tier 6 looting rate is OP, but that's a different thread. Yup, thats why I said I agree with the current plan as long as Q6 is really rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 OK it got confusing because it was Limdood who said he thought crafting should be better but you who was arguing with me about it. ;P They "solved" the problem. There is no more encouragement to go strictly into INT just for high quality gear. Nitpick: Crucible -> the root item of ALL high quality crafted gear, and requires Int 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalen Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 OK it got confusing because it was Limdood who said he thought crafting should be better but you who was arguing with me about it. ;P Heh, its a topic that generates a lot of passion. Personally, I feel that crafting and looting should be equal. But, I'm ok with there being rare high end items that you luck into while looting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Nitpick: Crucible -> the root item of ALL high quality crafted gear, and requires Int 10 On day 4 I bought a schematic for the crucible from the trader and on day 5 I found a crucible in a crate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Whereas day 27 and I don't have one. You can't count on it, so until I get one I am forced to Int 10. Steel is necessary earlier than ever because so many crafts need it etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipClaw Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Whereas day 27 and I don't have one. You can't count on it, so until I get one I am forced to Int 10. Steel is necessary earlier than ever because so many crafts need it etc That's the disadvantage of looting. Everything is random and nothing is reliable. Because of this I usually prefer crafting rather than looting, but due to the slow leveling I have no choice. I try to save as many points as possible by looting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostlight Posted October 25, 2019 Share Posted October 25, 2019 Yeah I was simply pointing out that the thought that the devs had removed the need for the player to spec to Int 10 is false. If anything you are more than ever forced to Int 10....for the Crucible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limdood Posted October 25, 2019 Author Share Posted October 25, 2019 a valid point. Steel is more plentiful in A18 than it was in A17 (i've found several items that wrench into some steel) - but I'm not going to argue that it's "enough." Without a crucible, you can probably manage: a tier 3 item and most of the mods you want with rigorous checking of the trader and an eagle eye for safes, telephone, and light poles - but plentiful crafting of several tier 3 items, vehicles, or outfitting a team with full mods definitely requires the crucible. Personally I'd like to simply see more steel salvageable....1-2 steel bars from most household things made of steel. Enough for crafting, but not enough for a full steel base (feels like that should still be gated to the crucible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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