Viktoriusiii
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Posts posted by Viktoriusiii
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7 minutes ago, meganoth said:
Your rant comes a little too soon. You haven't played this system enough too know its in and outs and it probably still needs balancing as the system changed in a significant way. Make a test game, play the church with stealth perk 5 to experience what full stealth would mean (to get to know the extremes). I actually wanted to do that test yesterday but didn't have the time
Secondly this is an RPG and survival game. A part of your performance will always be dependent on perks and luck. Including stealth now so it seems. In previous alphas stealth was already a very fun endeavour, but also very dependable, a routine.
The trigger room concept was a first attempt at making stealth more dynamic. This is another attempt I would guess and one that might get less controversy than the auto-trigger rooms of A19. And we at least have to check it out whether it is able to accomplish that task. Accept it for now and at least wait for 2 balancing rounds before ordering TFP to change it. 😉
That response was PURELY aimed towards @SylenThunders argument of "stealth shouldn't work all the time, because realism".
Because that is a mindset that takes away the players agency and gives it an 'rng-feel' because it is not in the control of the player.
It wasn't AT ALL aimed at this current system. I made those points in my OP.
Don't get me wrong I am not a fan of the current implementation of this system, but I understand the thought behind it. It definately needs tweaking though.
So I hope I cleared that up
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It is the only thing that can reliably kill dogs early.
So yeah it is.
A smaller magazine coupled with a lower rate of fire (~1/2) should make it feel more like a pipe weapon.0 -
2 hours ago, SylenThunder said:
One thing that I've always argued needed to be changed is the use of the word "Stealth". It isn't stealth. You aren't some magically invisible being. It's sneaking, and sometimes you just get seen.
I am in favor of the way the current system works. Previously you could go through completely invisible to everything except the triggered zones without even putting points to "stealth". The current system makes the "Stealth" tree more important for that type of gameplay.
NO!!! So much no.
Absolutely @%$#ing not.
I can not NO enough to express my No'yness!
Seriously. Do you know Fifa?
Do you know why basicially everyone who isn't a pro or a child has quit it?
Because of "Momentum". A mechanic that is to this day denied by EA but every player that can play well enough knows it.
It is a way to a) bring in realism (because not every player plays the same and certain things like scoring a goal affects the mood) and b) to control players so that it never gets TOO much out of hand.
It feels like the game cheats you.
Anyways my point is:
It should be up to the player to make mistakes, not the game.
If the player doesn't make mistakes and you 'force' a mistake on him by chance, it is one of the worst feelings there is.
Make stealth even harder.
Make me crawl centimetre by centimetre if you absolutely want to.
Make every trashbag cause an explosion if walked over.
But don't say "well sometimes people make mistakes, therefor the game should mirror that"
NO. The player is the one to make mistakes, not the game.
So forcing it upon a player is the absolute wrong way to do it.
Stealthing should be hard, but rewarding.
If it is impossible, then you basicially took away all the reward.2 -
7 hours ago, Boidster said:
With the caveat that I know nothing about the A20 update to how aggro is determined now, I checked the the SleeperVolumeFlags for A20 POIs and found as follows:
Examination of 479 POIs with Sleeper Volumes
POIs with All Volumes Passive ("0") 157 (32.8%) POIs with All Volumes Active ("1") 0 POIs with All Volumes Aggressive ("2") 75 (15.7%) POIs with Mix of Active & Aggressive 247 (51.6%) Examples of all-Passive POIs:
abandoned_house_01
abandoned_house_06
barn_02
cabin_11
farm_10
Examples of all-Aggressive POIs:
apartments_01
downtown_building_01, 02, & 03
farm_02
house_modern_16 through 22
rural_church_01 is an All-Aggressive POI.
<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2" />
store_book_02 is a mixed POI.
<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="0,0,2,0,0,2,2,2,1,1,2,2,2,2" />
utility_refinery_01 is a mixed POI.
<property name="SleeperVolumeFlags" value="2,0,0,2,0,1,1,0,0,2,2,2,2,0" />
This assumes, of course, that this particular property is still being used in the same way. I didn't go into the POI editor to play with sleeper volumes.
You are an absolute hero my man!
Could you still explain what Passive, Active, Agressive and mixed means?
And if you have the time, could you explain these values of 0,0,1,1,2,2???0 -
5 hours ago, ~Kevin~ said:
I have no idea what RNG or LBD is. Please define acronyms before you use them. I only visit this forum every few years, last time I posted was January a year ago. I will come in post a thread, maybe a couple of replies and will not come back until the next alpha is released.
What is spam crafting?
There is no arguing, I am a paying customer who is voicing his opinion about a product he bought. I wish some of the passive skills would come back.
You have not been here a lot since A17 released, have you
LBD (learning by doing) was the system pre A17. You were learning skills by doing them.
So you fought with a sledgehammer? Sledgehammer skill went up. You were hit by a zombie while wearing heavy armor? Heavy armor skill went up.
The problem was, that there were a lot of exploits that TFPs(The Fun Pimps) didn't fix.
Like you could endlessly craft tools to level them. So everyone just stood therein the night crafting stoneaxes all night. (called spam crafting)
Or you could stand next to a cactus getting 1dps while leveling your armor rating pretty fast. (actually they did start to fix some of these exploits in A16 but the arguments were still about the now nonexistent spamcrafting)
These exploits were used as arguments against LBD. They are bad arguments, but as madmole (one of the founders of TFPs) has stated: "He will die on that hill!"
So we don't even need to bring it up anymore. Sure you can. But this will be feedback that they will not listen to anymore.0 -
34 minutes ago, DEADFACE said:
To be clear, I think skilling into stealth should lengthen the time for trap tiles to break when walking over them, but prevent breaking entirely if sneaking over them.
What stealth player WALKS inside a poi? o_o
I think it is fine as it is right now.
Maybe give us a book like the one that makes mines not explode at all.
But otherwise, I am fine with these falling floors!0 -
interesting... maybe I did something wrong... like go to the main menu (which resets it) will keep a look out in the future.
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It is probably harder to name one that doesn't have it
But here are a few:
rural_church_01 (should have 2 triggers. Once when going down the ladder and one inside the main lootroom)store_book_02 has one when you drop down from the ceiling into the main lootroom
utility_refinery_01 (right after you get into the first big room they start to fall from the skies)24 minutes ago, meganoth said:Roland just posted some interesting information in the A20 dev diary:
if so this needs to be changed to your stealthlevel, not the perk.
Because right now I can be SUPER silent and yet fail every time (with sneaking 1 but only <20 visibility)0 -
Sure! I'm not a fan of anecdotal evidence myself.
But since I did the testing already, I know it for myselfBut I am totally pro exact numbers.
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I don't mean to be all high and mighty, but it has nothing to do with weaker stealth or feral sense (not active).
It is very special rooms that always react the same way.
Sometimes I have no problem sneaking right in front of a zombie.
And in POI 'x' room 'y', every time I come to a specific block, suddenly every zombie is awake. No matter how low my detection bar is.
And these rooms are in nearly every (if not every) POI.
I think maybe the farms don't have them.
But as far as I remember, every single one of the 11 non-open-POIs had this.
And yeah in A19 this was totally fine. It was how it was meant to be. Trap activated wake up. "if he falls, wake them up, no matter detection level".
This is fine. And by far from every poi.
But now it is close to every one without traptriggers. You can be sneaking down a hallway perfectly silently like oyu have done 1000 times before...
and BOOM the whole room in front of you is awake and aggro.
*edit*PS:
the reason why I am so sure is because I always do a POI twice. Once to clear it and then another one when activating the quest.
So these room-patterns are REALLY obvious when it happens twice or even more times in a row.2 -
20 minutes ago, hotpoon said:
Strange thing to say. I would say a smaller backpack would make it feel like a shooter. Shooters aren't about loot. Most shooters don't even have inventories. They have loadouts which may or may not be changed during game. It's the reason I avoid shooters because I'm all about the loot.
I 100% disagree.
It is about necessity.
Every survival game limits your access to ressources in a way.
7D2D doesnt do that.
What you describe (big inventory) is more of a looter shooter.
Get everything you can and become awesome!
A small inventory (which it isn't if you know how to manage it! I could live with one or even two less rows if I wanted a challenge! Ah the good old days.) is such a small hinderance (there are many ways to overcome it in 7d2d) that it almost doesn't feel like a survival game and more of a looter-shooter.
they have worked on improving this since A18, but it is still very much part of the game.
We need illnesses from food&water (like we have with injuries now), we need more threatening zombies (not hidden behind stupid walls, but faster more ferocious Z's), we need a lot more variety in the game.
If you take out ANOTHER hurdle (in the form of inventory management) then it really does become a lootershooter again.
We need MORE hurdles, not less in this game.0 -
Well now. I do not want to influence your instinct, so please vote on the poll before I bring up any arguments.
And yes this has been said in a couple of threads, but not only do I want them to see that this is prevalent, I also want to lay out every reason (and potential solution) for this very complicated topic.
Prefix:
I love stealth in games. I also like to go in guns blazing sometimes, but the feeling of being weak, and yet through intelligence and planing, overcoming the obstacle feels great.
So I am slightly biased. But I have complimented A19 and now A20 a lot so I do consider myself pretty much on board with most of the changes.
Also I have said a lot about stupid zombie placement in the last few years (HOW did they get inside the walls??? Who put them there?), but this is only a side issue but should not be forgotten.
We all know about the automatic wake up mechanic of Z's in POIs by now.
You pass a certain block and every zombie in the room wakes up for seemingly no reason.
I am pretty sure this is a way to give the player drama and an 'experience'. This has been the philosophy of TFPs since very early on. Where gameplay and logic will suffer to give the player memorable experiences.
To be fair, they HAVE slowly but surely tried to find a middle ground on many of these issues (most houses are now actually properly run down, so when a floor collapses, it is not completely out of nowhere. As well as giving stealth characters the option to delay these traps)
So I am hopeful about this issue as well.
BUT the reason for its implementation is that sneaking is EXTREMELY powerful to clear POIs. You basicially have no risk and just wander through the poi collecting items and XP.
So I do get the reason for this implementation. The WAY of this implementation is absolutely insanely bad though.
EVERY POI has them and there is nothing you can do except not following the "given" path.
This ruins the only upside to stealth characters. They WILL have a hard time on hordenight, no matter how many quests they completed (remember that gamestage is correlated to level, so many quests also mean harder hordenights).
I have said it a billion times:
Everything needs its ups and downs. If there is a choice between something with only ups and one with some downs, there is no reason not to go for the first one. And the same is true with some negatives and all negatives.
MY OPINION:
TFPs want to force players to fight and interact with the world. (in a way a good thing, since players will optimize the fun out of every game)
But I do not think that this should be this forcing. It is already VERY pushing when it comes to exploring the world (you need to loot or you are f***ed) and this is just one step too far for me.
If a player enjoys stealthing around, let them. Give them smaller obstacles to make it interesting (like bridges that need to be jumped without stealth or something), but do not FORCE them into fighting. Especially not with scripted events.
If it makes sense, ok. You should STILL use it in moderation (and not in EVERY poi, like how it currently is), but at least it makes sense.
But scripting it makes the player feel cheated. "I did everything right and I am still being punished!"
So how do we combine these two seemingly opposed problems (keeping stealth strong while still giving some excitement to looting)?
There are a lot of different possibilities. I will list them from easiest to implement to hardest.
Not all of them should be combined, but some definately can be.
0.5) delete every "wake up" block, except for traprooms
Obviously not brilliant, but easy to do and fixes at least one issue. (that is why it is point 0.5)
If I fall down a broken block into a room filled with Z's, they should wake up.
Everything else kinda doesn't make sense considering sneaking is exactly that: not getting spotted.
1) wake them up without giving them aggro
This is probably the easiest and most effective way to resolve this issue.
This makes stealth far more challenging, fills the world with life and still gives the player a way to shine through stealth. (also it fixes the stupid placement where every zombie is behind a wall)
2) wake up percentages based on stealth skill/detection meter
This should also be easy to be implemented. Depending on your sneak skill (or even on your "detection" value if you want it a bit more refined) only a certain amount will actually wake up. And an even lower amount could pull aggro (so a mix between 1&2). This would mean that there is still SOME aggro, which will probably cause more aggro if the player isn't skilled enough, as well as making stealth worth it.
Downside: it makes late game stealth just as boring as it was pre A20 (in the minds of TFPs. I loved being completely sneaky not having to fight even once)3) Counterplay
give us some way to avoid these forced wake ups. A pile of trash in the door, a tripwire connected to an alarm that can be lockpicked, any indicators that the next room has awake zombies (like zombiesounds a few blocks before you get there.
Downside: skilled players will be able to not fight again.
4) make POIs with easy and hard pathsthis is by far the hardest to implement, since it requires total reconstruction of pois. But it would help.
Instead of giving us exactly one way, give us multiple. One quick one and one long one where stealth can be used.I won't expand on this because it will never be done, but I still wanted to mention it.
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Not this again. We all know "LBD leads to spamcrafting" has been disproven like... thousands of times. You can't fault a great mechanic for faulty implementation.
But it is not coming back, so lets not argue about it anymore.
It was superior in every way, TFPs didn't like it, end of discussion (and yes this was intentionally passive agressive And I will never not be)
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Trap rooms are fine.
the breaking of floors CAN be slowed down with stealthperks.
So this is totally fine.
What is NOT fine is the "no counterplay" version, where they WILL wake up, no matter how low your sneak is. All of them. 100% of the time.
This NEEDS to be fixed.
Maybe make it % based.
Maybe make it so they walk around, but have not noticed you yet (this would be cool!)
Maybe make it dependant on a trigger (a trashpile or a lockpickable tripwire).
We NEED a way to avoid this danger. This is all that stealth is about.
If this is not there, there is NO POINT to a stealthbuild. 0.
It is fun, but why would I chose something if I could also just go in with an m60 guns blazing and have just as much fun?
Imagine if in skyrim, there was something like in Cyberpunk77, where if oyu killed/stole something, a guard would suddenly, without warning pop up right next to you.
Stealth/Thieving/Sniper all would be completely pointless.
This needs to be changed. Yes for everyone not just in a mod.
As I have said millions of times before (and yes getting more every time I say it :D):
EVERYTHING needs to be fair, by having strengths and weaknesses. If you take away the only strength of stealthbuilds (aka "risk-free" POI looting), you have completely devalued this perk and the only time you take it is as a secondary3 -
1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:
It does, if yours didn't you're bugged.
I meant as in "once oyu killed 'x' amount of zombies"
Obviously once daylight comes, the hordenight ends.
But in previous alphas you simply had to kill an appropriate amount of Z's and then none would come anymore (often at the 0-1AM mark)0 -
Updated the main thread.
Added all the major downsides I have found so far.QuoteDOWNSIDES:
Well I am further in the game now and the glaring faults that I thought were fixed have shown their faces again.
I still enjoy it, but I probably got overly excited by all the new and shiny stuff.
Many things have already been said, but I will just quickly mention them (the big ones deserve their own topic):
I love the new POI designs.
What I don't like is that THERE WARE ZOMBIES IN WALLS EVERYWHERE.
WHY??? Who plastered them in there? Were they built into the house?
Inside cupboards I can understand. They have hidden from Z's after getting bitten and now the player comes along and triggers them.
But in walls and unreachable ceilings? WTF.
Also STOP AUTODETECT. Seriously. Remove it. If there isn't a mod yet, I implore any modder to get on it.
There is basicially no reason for this. Either give us SOME counterplay (a tripwire alarm that can be lockpicked/cut or a trashpile that starts this) or AT THE VERY LEAST make the percentage of autodetect Z's dependant on your level of hiddenness. Value of 25 when entering the room? every 2nd Z' starts waking up.
Value of 5? Every 10th Z wakes up (50 as a baseline. Everything above can't be considered sneaking)
Sneakbuilds have one purpose: To clear POIs effectively without fighting.
If you take that away, it has literally no use anymore.
You re-HEALLY don't want us to have steel, do you?
When we said we wanted more endgame content we didn't mean "drag it out for hours", but actually stuff to do.
Bring back polished steel blocks and hide them behind INT 10.
But being an INT focused player and needing to be lvl 60 to get steel (I need some harvesting, I need something to defend, I need some for mining...) is too much.
This is a pure INT char. Now imagine someone who doesn't want to skill into INT. He will probably never get it. (Maybe there is a cruicible recipe, but I bet that is loottable-level locked as well) you get an auger before oyu get a steel pick... where is the sense in that???
BALANCE!!! WE NEED BALANCE.
I saw this when I started, but it has become EVEN MORE obvious.
Weapons are REALLY not balanced. Especially melee ones.
I like the bow/crossbow changes. But the machete is still by far the strongest weapon, the stunbaton stuns too frequently (to a point where there is basicially no danger) and every weapon staggers on hit. (it should be based on weight. So a knife should never stagger, a spear only on heavys, a club semi-regular and a sledgehammer every hit.
Why doesn't hordenight end???
Previously there was a max amount of Z's you had to kill.
Now there doesn't seem to be a limit anymore.
I have 90min days and I threw 25 molotovs and 19 granades... and they STILL kept on coming.
All I could do was repair @%$#. All of this was on day 7. (yes with 300% xp so a bit higher level but still)
If this wasn't changed, feel free to correct me. But I never had this issue before.
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Yeah this is sadly a trend that doesnt seem to go away anymore.
I complained back in A17 about zombies being placed in the weirdest locations. (like... how did they get inside a fully functioning wall???)
But they are more focused on how the experience is rather than how fun it is (yes these are different. You get into a poi once and they come out of the wall, it is exciting. But after the 5th time you just shoot every wall just in case)
The "auto trigger" should be reserved for very special rooms. Like where you fall from the ceiling into a room of Z's.
Otherwise autotrigger means that exploring a poi as a stealthchar is basicially suicide (at least on higher difficulties), because you don't have anything to fight the Z's with.
EVERYTHING (I said this as well thousands of times) needs to have a clear structure.
-strength
-weakness
-way to overcome weakness/strength
Examples:
Z's:
(good)Screamer:
Pro: can alert more Z's
Contra: very weak
(good)Spider
Pro: very agile/hard to hit/can reach otherwise hard to reach areas/jumpobstacles
Weakness: pretty weak
(bad)Demolition Z'
Pro: high player dmg, high block dmg, super high armor/hp, on death rips open every defense, traps activate the explosion
Contra: - (since shooting his light still triggers his explosion)
Perks:
(good)Strength
Pro: good at mining/building/fighting smaller groups of Z's
Contra: hordes of Z's/special infected
(theoreticially good)Agility
Pro: great at clearing POIs and sneaking around at night
Contra: super weak hordenight
But since sneaking doesn't work anymore, it has lost the only upside to it.
Why would I sneak, if they detect me anyways?
If it was, lets say some sort of alarm that can be lockpicked or a trashpile that could be destroyed, this would give us counterplay again.
But no. Either you just go for the stash because you know where it is and break it open by force, or you are forced to fight zombies.0 -
I do agree. Weapons need some balancing.
Knives shouldn't stagger. At all. (Machete can on heavy)
Spear should have higher reach (that was their main purpose)
Stun Batons are just op. Maybe nerf the probability of the shocker.
But honestly... if you aren't playing on really high difficulties... every weapon is fine. Play with whatever is the most fun to you.2 -
CLAY is your problem? :'D
I have only done a 7x7 foundation (so 49 blocks) as well as a mine.
And I am SWIMMING in clay. My furnace is full and I still have nearly a complete stack of it laying around (my non-hordebase is also made from cobblestone)
I have been mining a pretty decent mine and stone is ALWAYS missing.
About the building:
It has ups and downsides.
I think I would like them to implement a shapes block for every material (like for wood, there we have the 2 wood and the 10 wood).
But I CAN live without it.
I am just happy that even wood holds pretty well against zombies.1 -
Yeah... I didn't get it... because I literally never encountered this problem.
The only time this happens is with LOADS of non-stackable items like blueprints, batteries, weapons and so forth. But that rarely happens.
Are you not scrapping all the stuff you don't need?
Sure in a T5 factory, I can understand there being too much, but that is, I think, by design.
T4s were not a problem so far.
Keep in mind: I always have the bar in the bottom filled and another line of inventory with ammo, repairkits and food.
So I already only use 3 lines... and I STILL don't have a problem...
What am I doing wrong?
Everything that can easily be smelted or crafted gets scrapped, food gets eaten, singular plants or other stuckk that can be easily obtained gets left behind, Weapons worth less than 200 get scrapped.
All this while I only have 3 lines AND I don't use vehicles, the drone or an outside chest to store stuff.
HOW can this possibly be too little? o_o
I am serious and do not want to be condescending. Do you have itemmods that adds various items or something?0 -
I massively disagree on this.
- Packmule and pocket mods expand your inventory.
- scrapping all the stuff you loot increases your inventory by about 1.5x
- you can still walk while overloaded
I have looted whole T4s without having to leave anything behind (except rocks sand and so on).
I might have been overloaded by the end, but it does work.
If you suddenly increase inventory slots, all the thought behind "is it really worth it or can I scrap it?" goes out the window and another survival aspect is gone.
Don't get me wrong, I am a hoarder as much as the next guy. I keep stuff even if I know I already have enough for the next 10 weeks.
And jet... I don't need bottles. I don't need cans, I don't need pipes. I dont need iron ingots. I don't need brass items (scrap), lead is easily farmable or if you don't want to waste it just scrap it...
There are SO many possibilities to loot everything in one go.
I always go 1-2 Packmule and the rest with pocket mods.
This is always enough so that I can still adequately walk when I am completely full.5 -
Well if it doesn't smell like @%$#, doesn't feel like @%$#, doesn't taste like @%$#, and it's chemical composition is just water... I don't care where it came from!
Too low on the "standart setting" a bit too high (for the average player) on insane.0 -
I still don't get why people were complaining before they changed it (I think in A16 it slowly dropped until it stabilized and in A17 it was a sudden "now you are hot! drink water!" kinda deal)
So I am pretty happy about this!0 -
1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:
At 4:00 am, my food bar was now at 91 and my health was full. In that one night, just doing nothing, I only went through 14 units of food (102-91+3 leftovers). What is different in your situation that you were consuming 4X the amount of food I did?
It might have been the lower HP.
I had to regen HP constantly. But even so that seems FAR too high. Why would you get better regen if that also means higher food consumtion? 😕
I feel like half the value that it is right now would be ok.
I also play on 90 minutes, but that is only an increase of 50% so it should have been 20 food (if I wasn't hurt)0
The weird implementation of stealth and its counter measures.
in General Discussion
Posted · Edited by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)
Only when you do a mistake. The problem right now is that you can do everything right and still get seen for no discernable reason.
I will try and give as precise examples as I possibly can.
(since I think A17)
If you have the time, you can watch this video as it explains it REALLY well:
https://youtu.be/Ay-5g36oFfc?t=272 (the whole channel is interesting, but this section of this video is relevant)
Basicially:
It does not feel fair when enemies hear you for no reason.
This isn't a stealth game, so there is no need to "favour" the player (see video), but to outright favour the game to increase difficulty will always feel punishing.
I have talked about punishing mechanics a lot on these forums, since TFPs used punishment A LOT in previous alphas (and still do).
Don't punish the player for your lack of creativity. JUST DON'T.
If you can't somehow make zombies that are actually challenging, while staying consistent with the gamerules, don't cheat to gain the same effect.
(gamerule: stealthbar is directly correlated to zombie detection. The lower it is, the closer you can get to it.
rulebreaking: zombies suddenly know where you are, even though your stealthmeter was perfect)
One more thing:
If stealthperks actually gave you an adequat way of fighting with a lot of Z's at the same time, this wouldn't be THAT much of an issue.
But basicially every attribute has ways to defeat many Z's at once. Except for the agility one.
Sure you still CAN use pistols and machetes to fight. But it is far FAR less powerful. To a point where it is borderline useless.
In normal circumstances, this would be fair, because it is all up to the player.
Didn't sneak well enough? Tough luck, go figure out how you deal with it.
But if the game CHEATS and puts you in this position, it is no longer fair.
*edit*
Fortitude gives you better survivability
Strength gives you far higher dps and good weapons
Perception isn't a fighting skilltree. If you skill in that you better are in coop or just that good that you don't need dmg. You know what you get yourself into.
even Intellect hast AWESOME CC with the turrets. Even though it is not meant to be a combat attribute.
And NO, just because the machete is an absolutely broken weapon does not mean that you can fight as a stealthchar. It means the machete needs a nerf
Feral sense, better detectionrate, trashpiles making sound, trapfloors etc. are all great ways to increase difficulty for stealth.
Rolling a dice to determin if the player gets seen IS NOT. Persiod.