Roland
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Posts posted by Roland
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20 hours ago, Speaking The Truth said:
What i mean by that is that when I open my game menu looking for defense solutions I am presented with traps and defensive structures to build, so I would argue that these are the games intended tactics, however in effect they are largely ineffective and the primary method of defending a base is to take advantage of the AI travel path, such as leading them along an endless loop. I don't want to remove the latter because there are some players who like it, but I think it's fair to say that it is not really an intended style of play.
I think that designs that lead them on endless loops are probably not the intended way to play but making a design that funnels them in to where those traps and defensive structures are is.
Case 1: Spikes
If you place spikes in concentric rings around your bunker on the ground zombies will see them as blocks and behave towards them as other blocks. If there is no way around they will attempt to jump up on them or bash them. If there is a way around they will go around rather than jump. This means that as soon as one open path exists, the zombies will all funnel to that path and ignore the rest of the spikes.
If you place the spikes at -1 block so that the top of the spike is even with the ground then the zombies will run over them as normal ground and never try to go around them. In addition, rather than go down into a dip and then back up they will prefer to run across level ground so they will not go through a hole where a spike used to be but will instead run over the next spike block that they see as level.
I believe this is a case of using the intended trap in an effective way that takes zombie behavior and pathing into consideration without going so far as an endless loop. The problem with this strategy is that it yields no xp and many people have changed their view of horde night from an event just to be survived to an event to farm massive xp.
Case 2: Blades/ Darts/ Fences/ turrets
If you place them haphazardly around your base without any preparation you will only haphazardly kill the random zombie that crosses their path. I don't see this as a natural and true way to build traps-- more like a bad strategy for placing these traps.
If you create a corridor that funnels zombies into a path where they must come into contact with these traps then I believe that is a good strategy and very much in line with classic tower defense. I don't think this is on par with creating an endless loop. Building structures and taking advantage of the landscape to force most if not all zombies into a path of your choosing is very rewarding and then setting up traps that mow them down as they run where you planned for them to go can be equally rewarding,
Case 3: Elevated paths
These are designed to get the zombies lined up single file and slow them down and thin them out. The path can be one that zombies often fall off of on their own or get jostled off as they move toward you in their line plus a sledge can be used to knock off every second or third. This allows the players to easily keep up with the onslaught through a combination of melee and ranged defense plus any of the traps can be employed along the path as well.
This is probably gray area as you are causing at least a portion of the zombies to loop in order to take on the horde at a trickle. I like these okay--they just seem to get a bit boring and start to really feel like I'm harvesting xp rather than trying to survive a horde onslaught.
There are more but my point is simply that players can choose how far they wish to go in using their knowledge of zombie behavior against the zombies. A method is usually labeled as "cheesy" by those who don't use that method and feel that that method took less effort for better result than the one they are using.
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On 2/5/2022 at 11:19 PM, Speaking The Truth said:
however...if you opt to live in a horde base that feels natural and in sync with the game
That's why everyone else in the world that didn't get a force-field for their compound is dead.
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On 2/5/2022 at 8:45 AM, Scyris said:
Considering I was stealth the entire time? and I often destroy the pile of garbage thats always behind a door in the path your meant to walk. All I've noticed is that in all the new A20 poi's almost every sleeper volume is a ambush almost every single one, doesn't matter how quiet you are. Before in A19 you could enter the ambush volume in a different way and not trigger it, however in A20 a lot of these sleeper volumes do not spawn the zombies at all unless you step on the ambush trigger, which means when your on a clear quest, you cannot finish it, as the volume does not spawn UNLESS you step on the block that causes the ambush. Its TFP being TFP and forcing you to play in a certain way. I miss back in a16.4 when the player had choice, what weapon you used determined how high you up perks for it, you could stealth or go in guns blazing.
The stat system was the dumbest thing TFP has done to the game by far. Their excuse was to avoid "level gate" However, that was ONE level gate, now we have 5 gates instead of one. SO they made the problem WORSE and not better. Not to mention some stats are just worth more than others, str/int being the big 2, while the rest especially in A20 are kinda useless, especially Agi since stealth is a near non-option, which renders several agility perks near useless and a waste of skill points. This is not directly related to the stealth thing but it sort of is, as the way it is in A20 it makes Agility even less worth investing in as many of its perks are completly negated due to the ambush volumes being so prevalient.
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10 hours ago, Sjustus548 said:
I'm always surprised at the difference players see in the number of screamer spawns.
9 hours ago, Ramethzer0 said:It always amazes me when I hear about folks that never see any screamers spawn ever.
I'm not. The difference is clearly and completely due to level of industry between players. I hardly ever see screamers myself. But in my last playthrough I was worried that maybe my game was bugged so I crafted 20 campfires and put 30 minutes worth of fuel in each one and lit them and soon I had waves of screamers coming.
The problem is that not everyone, who complains about either not seeing enough screamers or who complains about seeing too many, discloses how many forges, campfires, mixers, chem stations, and augering they are doing.
In a normal playthrough I usually have two of everything and I don't usually have all of them running at the same time. I use a pickaxe most of the time to mine and don't often use an auger. So I rarely see screamers. People who see screamers a lot are going to be those who have five or more of each workstation and have them all running at once.
20 forges and 10 mixers is an insane level of production all concentrated in one spot. It is no suprise the heat map is always triggering screamers. I would argue that for the default game it is rightly so because there should be consequences for choices. Maybe screamers will be the least of our worries. It could be in A21 if you've got 20 forges and 10 mixers going at once you also attract bandits who will come and raid your forges of all your stuff....
I know....an option to remove bandits...
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3 hours ago, salajones said:
It's because I run 20+ forges and 10+ cement mixers.
Wow..I see a couple of ways you could eliminate screamers at the level you experience them without a need for mod or game option...
11 hours ago, salajones said:Even on a normal playthrough I don't enjoy the witch mechanic at all. It just feels like I'm being punished for playing the game since they are attracted when you use forges, cement mixes, chem stations, or using tools.
On a normal playthrough there is absolutely no necessity for the level of industry you are employing. I can see you needing speedy production for nightly horde nights but even then instead of building one huge factory you could make multiple smaller factories that spread out the heat and result in fewer screamers at any one location.
When playing normally, you can acheive necessary production speed waaaaay below 20 forges and 10 mixers...lol.
You are choosing to build a huge beacon and then complaining that there are too many moths. I'm not arguing against an option to exclude screamers or demolishers or dogs or whatever as I think those would be great options but in the meantime you could easily adapt and avoid this situation you are describing.
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35 minutes ago, hiemfire said:
Almost as if the Poi designers were given a green light to place as many as they wanted with the additions of fataal's adjustments to stealth. Wouldn't happen to have a breakdown that shows total of POIs with 2 or more attack volumes vs total # of POIs would you?
2 or more because I'm expecting all of the POIs to have at least one attack volume now.
I definitely think they changed most of the volumes to attack in order to facilitate fataal's adjustments. If you are going to run a stealth check for every zed in a volume but the volume is flagged as inactive then where is the need for a check? To have a check there needs to be a chance of failure and that can only happen if the room is flagged to have zeds attack if the check fails.
These attack volumes are not the same type of attack volumes we discussed in A19. The problem isn't that they are flagged as attack...the problem seems to be with stealth, lighting, communication to the player, and perhaps the sensitivity or ease by which players can fail. They really should set every single volume to attack everywhere as long as they can tune in stealth and make it so that it isn't quite so easily failed and that it definitely and noticeably succeeds much more often as ranks are bought.
Then they also need to create a backup trigger that is probably automatic when leaving the volume so that if there are zombies hidden that we snuck past they wake up. If you aren't doing a clear quest, you are past them already. You could shut the door and move on. If it is a clear quest then you won't miss those guys.
Finally, (and this coming from the guy that wants all onscreen icons to be invisible) I think we need the eye back that lets us know whether we are being targeted. If you sneak into a room and 5 zombies fall out of the rafters awake and ready to attack but the eye is closed then you know you are safe to stay hidden and take them out but if it is open then you know to retreat or openly attack. The current number really doesn't convey whether you are actively being hunted or not and I definitely don't want floating exclamation and question marks above the heads of the zombies.
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16 hours ago, Alpacko said:
Do not trust in hope - it will betray you. Only faith and hatred sustains.
meh...when you hope but then are disappointed you only suffer once. When you worry and then your worries are confirmed you suffer twice.
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5 hours ago, Qock said:
Listen, I came in here saying that I appreciate the way the game is enjoyable without too much of a time investment, and the reply I got was that I should play mobile games instead. That was a douche response and I replied to it accordingly and from the reactions, it honestly feels like the shoe fits pretty well.
You must not have intended it but your first post read as pretty judgmental and insulting to people who play the game more frequently than you do and why they must have enough time to do so. Hopefully, you weren't trolling with that post fishing for a douche response. You could have easily left out all references to having and working a job plus all the other things in life that you have and still expressed appreciation that the game can be enjoyed by all sorts of people with varying amounts of time to play.
6 hours ago, Qock said:Also, don't you find it a bit strange how the game isn't made for players like me when I am the one who enjoys it the way the developers made it, and you're the ones that needs mods? What type of logic is that really?
I think everyone is enjoying it the way the developers made it and you should understand that the developers are still making it and the need or lack of need to grind and progress at a slow pace could easily shrink or grow. Right now, you can stay in the forest biome and progress at a slower pace or you can enter the tougher biomes and get a bump to your loot stage and somewhat skip the slower progression. So if we are talking about how the developers made the game and for whom it isn't just players like you and nobody has to use mods unless they really want to slow or speed up progression more extremely than the game already allows. If you are happy with the current pace then that is wonderful but if had to say...work overtime a few weeks then you might need a mod to increase the pace of progression even faster and if I....say became unemployed and divorced and moved in with my mother then I might need a mod to slow down the progression to a glacial pace. (Did I get the two lifestyle situations right?)
6 hours ago, Qock said:If you want to run around in the woods chopping down trees for hours, the option is still there for you. The fact that you can choose not too and just occupy an existing building or live more of a nomad life is a strength of the game and not a weakness. There's plenty of games out there that forces you to do tedious resource grinding to progress.
I can also appreciate the realism in the fact that someone looting a gun store, then clearing out an existing building made out of concrete and steel and occupying it, has an advantage over some hobo dude building a shack out of twigs and crafts his own weapons out of old scrap he finds in garbage piles on the ground. I don't really see any reason why the latter should be "rewarded" really, as if that would be a more noble and elite way of playing the game.
Agreed. I prefer taking over existing structures but mostly because I am not much of a builder and repurposing a building brings me satisfaction. I would probably do it regardless of the demands or lack in my real life situation.
6 hours ago, Qock said:Personally, if anything, I'd rather see the game abandoning the loot progress completely. It makes more sense to be able to find high tier weapons no matter how early or late into the game you are, as long as you're looking in the right places. Instead of making it impossible to find a good gun in a gun store early game, make it harder to get inside that gun store, or make it more challenging to loot through it.
This won't happen. In fact the current situation where it is so simple to immediately jump into harder biomes and easily get better loot is going to get some fine tuning. Part of that will be handled with raiders and part of that with the weather survival overhaul. I suspect that the event manager will also be able to dynamically make the biomes a lot more difficult for people crossing borders on Day 1 to skip to the good stuff.
So the current implementation is not the developer's final intended design and there will be more stuff coming that may or may not support players with limited time being able to easily skip ahead without progressing without making changes to settings or using a mod. Right now, the player has to choose to start and stay in the forest for a time if they want to fully experience the primitive stage and gradually progress out of it since it is still pretty easy to get in and out of the other biomes without too much risk but with some nice rewards.
6 hours ago, Qock said:It would make no sense whatsoever for the developers to make the game completely unappealing to "noobs" or casual players just because some neckbeard gets butthurt that he can't bully new players on PvP servers because they might pull out a M16 out of nowhere and fight back.
It does make no sense and I can assure you the developers are NOT developing the game to be balanced for PvP. That ship sailed years ago. Loot progression and the probabilities of what loot can be found at what stage has never had anything to do with a fear that a newly spawned character might get an M60 and then be OP against other characters who have been in the server longer. It purely has to do with them choosing loot progression and character progression as a means to draw out the longevity of the game and have it take hours and hours instead of minutes and minutes in order to get the best stuff. That is their philosophy, like it or not.
6 hours ago, Qock said:Skill combined with street smarts and sprinkles of luck prevailing over time invested on collecting rocks makes for a way more appealing game experience for most.
I guess....if... most people are, in fact, like you. Like you, I don't have a neckbeard and I also have a job and a family, some pets, and other things to do in my life... but unlike you, I like a slower progression.
Go figure.
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5 hours ago, Matt115 said:
I'm wrong?
more like....prolific.
You inject your Mad Max disgruntlement into most of your posts even when it isn't even the topic of the thread. TFP is aware that you don't like Mad Max flavor in your zombie apocalypse. Feedback received.
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1 hour ago, theFlu said:
The timer related to the auto-agro-chase doesn't seem to change with the skills spent in From the Shadows, it's still 90 at 3/5. /shrug
What about the behavior you mentioned earlier where you got their attention and then crouched and they immediately forgot about you? That wasn't even 90 seconds. It is sounding to me like there is a bug that is causing zombies to not behave as expected.
Expected: If a zombie sees you it will chase you with a memory of you of 90 seconds after which it forgets you if it no longer can see you. But whenever it can see you it starts the 90 seconds again.
Reality: Some zombies forget the player immediately if they crouch in shadow without a 90 second timer and others chase for 90 seconds and then lose interest even if they can still see the player.
Expected: The 90 second timer reduces in time with ranks in From the Shadows
Reality: The perk isn't working
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We all know that Bandits on Blimps is at the top of faatal's list...lol
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4 hours ago, ElCabong said:
Wasn't this put in a very early version of the game to let you get back to your base quickly?
No. It was put in so that if there was an error or bug that caused you get stuck with no way out, you could die and respawn. It started as a suicide button next to the exit game button when you pressed ESC.
It was abused to fast travel to your base or other spawn point quickly.
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13 minutes ago, Matt115 said:
but - drones, junk guns, new guns models mean they want to do something in "mad max" style
there it is.
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4 hours ago, Alpacko said:
zeds w/ voice lines and guns. expect nothing, still get disappointed. life motto.
cant wait 4 intelligent enemies™ running up ramps and falling down pits in endless loops :^)
Zombies get into that loop because they are mindless monsters just trying to get at you. Bandits won't need to have a simple target and attack player as the AI task. They can have coding to have them give up and retreat or fire rocket launchers from a distance. If bandits just run loops, I will be surprised and disappointed but I'm willing to keep some hope in my heart.
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If the problem is that bad then it sounds to me like the best option is for your friend to play a solo game on the side. He is basically playing solo now but running up your day count. Just ask him to play his own private game whenever you guys can't all play together. I have a solo game on the side, myself, and both games are fun to play.
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15 hours ago, Tmodloader said:
Wonder how the AI for bandits will be handled. Adding a more intelligent enemy to this kind of game really hasn't ever been done before.
I heard a lot of people complaining about intelligent enemies during A17
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I am on Day 1 using the 8k Pregen map. I spawned right on the edge of the wasteland so I was able to run in before anything started spawning. I canceled my starting quest but still ran right into a trader compound so I headed there first and raided it finding a pistol in a purse and then plenty of ammo in the crates. I grabbed a fetch quest and then ran out and laddered to the roof of the nearest house. I broke into the attic, killed all the zombies and knocked out the ladder leading up. Then I cut out an opening in the wall and looked out to see the world start populating dogs and zombies all around. Yikes...what now?
I plan to sneak out at night and see if I can stealth my quest in the cover of darkness but I suspect my death is coming soon...
No way did I select feral sense.
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21 minutes ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:
Now that would be an interesting stealth mechanic, where if poi zombies lose sight of you they either go to a monster closet, a corner, sit down, lay down, or sleep in place. Now that would make pois more interesting, where if you make too much noise they will wake up and walk around, then go back to sleep. Like a shifting poi.
I suppose...seems to me that it would just result in once again clearing an entire POI by shooting sleeping targets. I guess for those who don't like the hidden zombies they could run through the POI and trigger everything and then retreat to wait for them to lie down and sleep in their new locations and then go back through and shoot each one while it slumbers-- maybe now with everything in plain view.
I guess that could be riveting gameplay for some.
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53 minutes ago, theFlu said:
Butt naked, no skills. Wouldn't have the patience to dance for a minute.
Wow. That is unexpected. Seems not to be working correctly. But if it is that is a huge boost for stealth. 🤔
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6 minutes ago, Boidster said:
Possibly, yes. I'm not sure a zombie in the "ApproachDistraction" task (i.e. walking towards you where it heard a sound) will instantly change to a different "ApproachDistraction" (your rock), but it's worth testing. You can do it outside pretty easily by hiding behind something and firing a shot. Then throw a rock and watch the zombies who (presumably) are shambling towards you. I've used rocks to distract zombies, but never tried it that I can remember with already-distracted zombies.
You can also test it easily by throwing one rock and then throwing a second rock in a different direction. I believe they ignore the second rock until going to the first rock.
7 minutes ago, Boidster said:Name-dropper.
yep, and I sent him a link to this thread if he has time to look at it and clear up any misconception of mine or anyone else's. Maybe ya'll can fill two pages of ROLAND IS WRONG posts if and when faatal tells us the truth.
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2 minutes ago, Boidster said:
Hmm...I'm going to go poke into the code to see about this. From what I saw/posted earlier I don't actually think it works that way, but maybe. Everything I saw implied that it was always about "can the zombie hear you". There is no automatic, random, "roll vs. player's stealth skill" in there that I saw, but there is a fair amount of noobiness in my code-poking so I'll look at it again.
I'm pretty sure that it is only zombies who can make "skill checks" vs stealth. And it is never random. It is "was this sound above the threshold of hearing" or "is the player entity visible at X distance and with Y illumination". Maybe I'm arguing semantics, but when entering a volume the player doesn't "make a check" of any type. The zombies may get to make a check vs hearing or sight, but never the player.
I can also ask faatal for clarification. I'm pretty sure it is how he explained it but I could have misunderstood.
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1 minute ago, theFlu said:
Ehh, you've misread me, probably due to the term "Line of Sight" having taken its negative as its meaning. I was arguing - and doing - exactly what you call impossible.
I've now cleared half of the Crack-a-book tower by:
Showing myself to a zed
Ensuring it goes into "ApproachAndAttackTarget" on the debug info
Running away in the tight space offered
Stealthing while the zed HAS line of sight to me. It loses agro if I manage to succeed the stealth check*. Doesn't need a block in between us, just a successful moment of stealth.
The "stealth check" I refer to is the mechanic as Boid describes; zeds are always checking if they can detect you. If they can't, they stop chasing.
Sleeper volumes may or may not have a separate check at entering, that I don't know.
Are you fully perked into stealth for these tests? There is a timer that counts down once they lose sight of you and I can't remember but I think unperked it is 90 seconds while fully perked it is almost instantaneous.
2 minutes ago, hiemfire said:They'd need to change where the impact and break "noises" are generated from for it to work. It's why we can shoot out a closet door from across the room and the occupant of that closet doesn't "hear" it but if we do from only a couple paces out the occupant gets grumpy.
That would also be extremely cool if the noise the zombies investigated was the breaking light rather than where the arrow came from. That could open up all sorts of fun stealthy gameplay-- particularly if bandits followed the same rules for investigating sounds.
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10 minutes ago, Boidster said:
I guess it depends on how you define "stealth check". I think they are always (or often) checking for visible entities within their cone of vision. To the extent [zombie vision] vs. [player illumination & distance] = "stealth check" it's arguable they are making them all the time. I'm not sure there's a significant difference between sleeper behavior and biome spawn behavior in this regard, with the exception that sleepers begin 'sleeping' and only a noise (or possibly a volume trigger) can wake them up.
I dunno, it could just be different definitions of "stealth check" in our heads.
The difference is that the stealth check that is rolled when you enter a sleeper volume is a random check made by the game and regardless of what you as a player is doing you can fail that check and one or more zombies can wake up. The only thing you can do as a player is increase your stealth skill which reduces the chance of failing that skill check. When you are outside there is no random roll of the dice to see if a zombie detects you. You are only detected if you enter into their cone of vision period. So it is a kind of a check but it is one the player through skill can navigate and will only fail by accident or noobiness.
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I just want to add a bit of criticism for the game to all of this. I understand that because of the tight quarters and light sources it probably isn't always possible to pull off a stealthy reaction. I think this is another reason to get rid of the light trails or as @Viktoriusiii has suggested at the very least make them one shot destroyable with an arrow or a melee weapon. But better in my opinion to just get rid of the inexplicable flashlights and lamps that somehow have power and are pointing at holes in the walls. I hate them and if removing them would facilitate stealth a bit more I think it is another great reason to get rid of them. But shooting out all the lights could also be interesting as long as it was just one shot for each.
Maybe a modlet that reduces all light hp to 1 would be cool
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2 issues
in General Discussion
Posted
That is much less true in Alpha 19-20 than it was for Alpha 17-18. There is currently code that assigns random zombies shorter path information so that they can't "see" the perfect least cost path to you although some still can. There are others that abandon paths altogether and go into destruction mode. The developers had to, in fact, dial back destruction mode a bit for Alpha 20.1 because too many were getting into that mode and getting stuck in it. So there is quite a bit of variety in behavior now
but
You may not notice it as much if your base's footprint is too small. If you are fighting in a base that is a 7x7 or smaller tower then even "short path" zombies will get around your base to the weak spot. I recently tried surviving a horde night on the ground floor of a standard brick POI which was probably more like a 20x15 sized structure and I had to repair blocks in several areas because the zombies with shorter path information were unaware of the near breaches on the other side of the POI so I did have a few different spots and they weren't all funneling to one place.
It's a tough balance. Maybe try surrounding your base with a wall that is 15 x 15 blocks and start the night fighting from the wall. If it breaches then you can fall back to your smaller base. I think you will find that there will be multiple places the zombies will be breaking on that wall because it is big enough to keep the short-pathers from finding an already existing weakness so they pound in a different spot.
Maybe I will try it too. It might be interesting to see how small the perimeter can get before most of the zombies funnel into the same spot.
Again, It may depend upon the size of your base AND what you want may not even be feasible to defend against if you are playing Solo. As a lone player who cannot check and repair spots behind you on the other side of your base while you are trying to kill zombies right in front of you, having zombies attack everywhere at once is going to be very problematic. For mp, yes, it would be fine because people could share the task of repairing and killing at multiple potential breach points. Build a larger base and you will get that kind of fun I'm betting.