Roland
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Posts posted by Roland
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41 minutes ago, theFlu said:
Could you explain that part to me, like I'm five?
I think Boidster did a great job but probably more for age ten and up...
Behavior 1
Zombie falls from ceiling and ragdolls unaware of player but wants investigate noise
It recovers from the ragdoll and moves to where the noise happens
It does not try to attack any player unless it sees a player
That allows a player to crouch and shoot it in the head for full stealth bonus
Behavior 2
Zombie falls from ceiling and ragdolls but it saw the player
It recovers from the ragdoll and moves toward the player
It tries to attack the player and will chase the player and not give up until it can no longer see the player for <timer affected by perk>
If the player shoots the zombie in the head there is no stealth bonus
In both cases the player can react by moving from their original spot. But in the first case the player is not under pressure from an attacking zombie. The player can throw a rock and the zombie will go to where the rock lands (incidentally, so will any and all zombies ringing the POI beating on the walls....). the player can shoot the zombie in the head with a silent weapon for the stealth bonus and if there are multiple zombies without alerting the other zombies.
With the second behavior the zombie just chases the player wherever the player moves attacking them so the player most likely will have to use a strong melee weapon or a loud range weapon with rapid fire to get rid of the pressure. So no stealth. The player could run away around a few corners, maybe shut a door, and wait and then return and stealthily kill the zombies that have by now exited their aggro state and are just wandering around now.
That was probably an 8 year old explanation.
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1 hour ago, theFlu said:
You have to react to either type by moving.
Yes but there are two parties involved in the scenario and the zombie behavior is different for each and at least as important as the player behavior. You are correct, though, that in both cases the player moves.
1 hour ago, theFlu said:Wait, is that it - do you know that when an agroed zed no longer sees you, it will also drop the chase? Even stealth is sufficient for this, line of sight is more certain of course. Shoot a zed in the night, scoot 5-10 meters, watch the agroed zed run towards where you stood before and stand there. Even after taking a hit. I'm testing this right now - I just took a hit from a Feral Arlene (so definitely agroed), ran ahead of her for 10 meters and crouched right in front of her. Intuitively I was too close for her to stop, but she actually stopped her chase right in my face. At the pause menu showing AI as "Alert 4.90, canBrk, 1 Look, wait 1.6"
A20.1 (b6)
A zombie that is alert and aggroed but can’t see you will not chase you. If you damage them or they heard a noise they will move to the spot you were at when the event that alerted them happened but they are not chasing you and yes, if you crouch in darkness they will stop very nearby without noticing you. A zombie that is alert and aggroed and can see you will chase you and not give up until a certain amount of time passes once you are out of their view. This is the behavior that can be exploited even indoors.0 -
2 minutes ago, theFlu said:
in case one) zombie moving towards you, you need to move away or it attacks you.
in case two) zombie moving towards you, you need to move away
orand it attacks you.Fixed that. The main difference is that in case one if you move the zombie does not move towards you and doesn't attack, and in case two if you move the zombie still moves towards you and attacks. That is a big difference you are glossing over. Sure, you as the player move in both cases but the outcomes are so different, it is blatant.
6 minutes ago, theFlu said:After you've moved away, you sometimes find out that it doesn't follow you. That's a slight plus whenever it happens, you'll save 20 secs from your normal agro-dropping routine. Not exactly a functional difference though.
That is simply indicative that you did not react fast enough or perhaps the room did not have enough shadows. If you freeze up when it happens and wait for the zombie to move towards you and then you move the zombie will likely follow. But if you crouch and move while it is still ragdolling then it isn't just "sometimes".
8 minutes ago, theFlu said:And we're talking sleepers here, "ambush", remember. Testing the feature outdoors to see the difference... functional difference; the difference is so great that I can't test it in the environment I'm supposed to use it?
I suggested doing it outside first because it is an easier environment to witness the behavior. You don't have to think fast and react quickly. You can set up the shot and shoot them from a distance and move aside and see how they go to where you used to be and not to where you currently are. Then, you can start practicing it indoors. I never said you can't test it indoors...lol. You put those words in my mouth. I said practice makes perfect and you know I meant reacting to actual interior locations.
11 minutes ago, theFlu said:I know I can throw rocks and gather a pile of zeds outdoors, but throwing rocks at heads of sleepers does very little. Mostly reduces the rock counter on my tool belt by one.
Again, you throw the rock while they are ragdolling not while they are still asleep. Sorry for the confusion.
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6 hours ago, Laz Man said:
Maybe we need question marks and exclamation marks over the zombies heads lol....
or......I dunno....an eye that opens and closes depending on whether the player is hunted or not. There was a game that had that once....
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On 1/31/2022 at 8:05 AM, ElDudorino said:
I mean, in the zombie apocalypse would you really be trotting through the streets and buildings spending ammo on every weak shambler?
A19- no
A20.0- yes
A20.1- no
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2 hours ago, NekoPawtato said:
To differentiate between "a zombie woke up, but doesn't detect you" vs "a zombie woke up and actively coming after you", what if instead of walking to the exact spot the player was at, there is a little variation to their behavior when the player is undetected?
For example maybe if they don't detect the player when they wake up, then have them go in whatever direction the zombie is already oriented in, or whatever direction they end up facing when they get up (if they are laying down). Say the zombie is north and looking towards the south, if the player is west of the zombie when it wakes up, the zombie would continue straight south, rather than going west towards the player. (there might be cases where the zombie needs to consider boundaries so it won't walk off a roof though)
Or instead of going straight for the block the player was at, have them wander towards a block that is X number of blocks to the left/right of the player's block, so still in their general direction, but you may be able to tell that they are veering slightly off course. (Maybe they got distracted by that shiny humming refrigerator)
At least that way, if the player sees that the zombie woke up, but is not honing into their location, they can determine that it is not actively coming after them.
Well, for one thing that isn't how the AI works. They go to the last spot they heard the player make noise. You can see this very clearly if you go out at night and shoot an arrow at a zombie and hit it but don't kill it. Take five steps to the left from where you shot the arrow and remain crouched and the zombie will run to where you were and not to where you are now. I think that if zombies just started moving in whatever direction they were facing whenever they heard a noise instead of moving in the direction of the noise that would really detract from their general behavior.
Much easier is for players who come to know the truth about zombie behavior to adapt their own behavior for advantage. As soon as a zombie crashes out of its hiding place, move quickly crouched away from where you were when they came out. You will see them go to your old location and not towards you-- unless they do in fact detect you. I would even say that learning to get good at this reactionary dodge and crouch maneuver is worth the occasional time you may get hit first by the zombie. There will be times you think you are hidden but aren't and couldn't quite tell if it knew where you were but with practice it will get better.
In A19 when there actually were attack volumes you could still retreat and hide and many times the zombies would forget about you before they found you and you could then return and stealth kill them. For me, that became an actual player stealth skill (as opposed to a purchased character stealth skill) and felt quite rewarding. I think this new situation could also come to feel rewarding to those who develop the actual player skill of maintaining stealth.
@theFlu says there is no functional difference between a zombie that is unaware of the player but walks right to where they heard the noise under the player's feet and a zombie that is aware of the player and targeting them. That is not technically true because in the first case (again easily testable at night out in the open if the close quarters of indoors is too worrisome) if the player moves away from that spot the zombie won't follow them and will ignore them, while in the second case the zombie will follow the player until the player has been out of view for a specified amount of time. Of course if the player exhibits poor stealth skills and doesn't move away immediately from that spot then there is a good chance the unaware zombie will quickly change to aware anyway.
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I think if you believe you are past the point of ever getting super corn and you feel it is necessary, then just open the creative menu and grab a handful and throw away however many Dukes you think is fair to simulate buying it from some traveling trader with rare items. Then just keep playing.
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29 minutes ago, hiemfire said:
From what I could tell they're not arguing aware vs unaware, but the actual way the zombie locations have been placed and toggle from static or spawn in, regardless of them being aware/attack or unaware/investigating active. You're the one stuck on the Aware "ambush" vs unaware "ambush" really doesn't matter if the "ambushes" are so common that they can be reasonably expected to be present in the gross majority of the POIs.
lol....I'm stuck on it because it matters if you are playing stealth. It certainly should matter to you. Your biggest beef with the attack volumes were that the player was forced out of stealth. I argued back then that we could retreat and hide until stealth was reacquired and then return but your counterpoint to that was that stealth had been broken for no fault of the player and the game shouldn't do that or it invalidates the points spent.
Now it looks like stealth isn't being broken. We just have some active zombies who fall through a ceiling near us or stumble out of a closet near us but they aren't aware of us. So the game DOESN"T automatically break stealth and our points aren't invalidated and we have a better variety of stealth gameplay now. But you still are not happy with it and it really pushes someone like me to start wondering if you guys simply really do just want sleeping enemies to shoot at, period.
That's why I'm stuck on the aware vs unaware question. Why aren't you? Why aren't you celebrating that it looks like stealth points are being honored? Is the appeal of shooting immobile targets that seductive?
29 minutes ago, hiemfire said:doesn't matter if the "ambushes" are so common that they can be reasonably expected to be present in the gross majority of the POIs.
And yet....sleeping zombies being so common that they can be reasonably expected to be present in the gross majority of the POIs is considered heaven...?
I'll stop now. I've made my point and am now belaboring it. If it is simply that you don't like it that a lot of zombies are waking up now in POIs and the fact that they crash out of ceilings and closets is annoying, then you don't like it. Fine. You guys keep talking about spawn placements and how zombies waking up all over the place is so horrible because there was no opportunity for the player to shoot them before they could wake up. I'm going to go test the game more and see exactly how often I can remain in stealth against enemies that are way more interesting than snoozers.
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1 minute ago, ElDudorino said:
I advocated for roaming zombies in this very thread and it seems like you're conveniently ignoring that.
Not at all. Glad you want roaming enemies. Me too. But I don't necessarily care if they start roaming before I reach them or as I reach them. It doesn't bother me to see the event that woke them up and started them roaming. Of course, I'd like the variety of having the already roaming type as well. Also, I'm not just talking about you, I'm talking about the general dislike of zombies falling out of ceiling.
6 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:And I expect that most players would never know that the jump scare zombies technically don't know you're there, because intuitively when a zombie jumps out of a closet at you the moment you pass by you're going to assume it knows you're there and you're going to react accordingly.
That's true. But there are tons of things about this game that new players aren't going to know until they experience it and figure out what is happening. I started noticing that some of the zombies didn't attack me right away. After more experience and coming here and reading if I discover that most of the time the zombies are unaware of me then that is a huge discovery and will affect how I stealth in the game. Provided that it is true that most of the time when zombies come crashing into view awake but unaware of us then, to me, that is a welcome addition to stealth gameplay.
9 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:But also, like BarryTGash says, when everything is an ambush, nothing is an ambush.
Not if it turns out that most of them aren't actually ambushes. I know you want to diminish my conceptual argument about aware vs unaware enemies to just a semantics argument but I hope other readers are discerning enough to see that if zombies are moving around (whether they surprised you or not) unaware of the player and the player is able to maintain stealth then that is very very different than zombies moving to attack the player knowing exactly where the player is. You can call one of those events an ambush but not the other and not because I'm trying to find some slight nuance of phrase to make my point.
12 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:The jump scare/ambush/whatever you want to call them are cheapened because they're constant. You don't get a break from them in PoIs and it just feels sloppy and messy, like the devs knew they wanted to put in some scares so they just took the paintbrush and swiped it all over everything.
Even if it was true that they were constantly falling out of places in every single room (which in my experience is not true), if they are unaware of the player when they do so and the player has the choice between stealth or open attack, then so what? You know what has been overdone and painted with a broad brush? Sleepers. In A16 thats all we had and then in A17-A19 we had mostly sleepers and some attack volumes where the zombies were aware and attacked the players. But did we hear a loud outcry about getting no breaks from comatose enemies? Did anyone ask why are all these sleepers so constant? No...they complained about the few attack volumes that broke it up every once in awhile.
Again, it bears testing. I would not want 11/12 rooms where zombies emerge already aware of me and attacking me. If it turns out that is the case then for sure I am 100% for changing that. But if it turns out that in most of those rooms the zombies don't know I'm there then 110% that is more enjoyable and engaging gameplay than shooting frozen sleeping enemies. That's how I see it.
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The current meta is that you meant to upgrade the block but grabbed some glass instead and ate it.
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In other words, if zombies are falling out of ceilings or falling out of closets and they are doing so unaware of me so I can still choose to stealth and get the drop on them or play it some other way then I am perfectly fine with that happening in 11/12 rooms of a POI. Why are 12/12 rooms of sleeping comatose enemies laying in plain sight okay and not too much of the same thing but anything more than 2-3 rooms of conscious zombies is just too much and needs to be made more random and rare?
It really really seems to me to be that you guys really just prefer coma patients as enemies. Should we change the game so that the blood moon puts them into an even deeper sleep for even greater thrills....?
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1 hour ago, ElDudorino said:
That's just semantics. Maybe there's a better word to use than "ambush" but clearly we all understand the phenomenon that's being discussed. The zombies don't fall from the ceiling unless you step into the zone that triggers them falling, so it's obviously designed in the same way an ambush is designed, but you can call it a triggered physics event or whatever. In many cases the ceiling section the zombies are in is completely closed off so the player has no way to get the drop on them and shoot them first.
I'm sorry but it is not just semantics. Enemies aware of you vs enemies not aware of you are very different things. Forget about the words and focus on the gameplay aspect.
How can you as a player react and play if the enemies are already aware of you when they fall vs how can you as a player react and play if the enemies are not aware of you as they fall?
In the first case your only recourse is to either run away and hide and hope they don't track you until they lose interest and then you can return and stealth kill them or you can just abandon stealth and destroy them with guns blazing.
In the second case you can crouch and hide and watch what they do before setting up a klling headshot still from stealth or you can retreat and re-emerge once you know they are unaware of you or you can throw a rock to make them head in whichever direction you want them to go and then kill them from stealth or you can abandon stealth and kill them guns blazing.
In the first case you can't get the drop on them because they are aware of you first. In the second case you can still get the drop on them because they are unaware of you even though they are now moving around.
I understand that at least part of what you are talking about is the problem with the trigger not happening so those zombies never fall and the player passes on by and then the quest becomes grueling to complete because you have to find those untriggered zeds. I agree that is a problem and I hope they can fix that possibly with backup triggers when you leave a volume so that anything that did not trigger, triggers so you can turn around and clear before getting too far along.
But my focus is on stealth gameplay and I personally much prefer there to be enemies that fall and wake up (unaware of the player), enemies that roam around (unaware of the player) and enemies that are dormant. I like that variety much more than just all enemies being dormant and we as players have stealth gameplay that is limited to shooting the heads of unconscious zombies. I'm not sure how anyone could advocate for gameplay limited to what adds up to shooting up a coma ward but who knows...?
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10 hours ago, BarryTGash said:
An ambush is defined as a surprise attack from a concealed location. I don't think the success matters, just the intent. As we all know what it's referring to in the context of 7D2D, I think the word is good enough.
The question is not about success or failure of the ambush. The question is whether the zombies know the player is there. A trigger causes them to fall from the rafters but that is all they are doing-- falling. They aren't trying to attack or surprise anyone. There is no intent to do anything other than get up after falling. In a battle, the enemy soldiers who are ambushing know that their prey is there and attack with the intent to kill them completely. If their ambush fails for some reason, I agree that it can still be an ambush. If the soldiers come stumbling out of the woods without knowing enemies are there but the enemies get surprised by the sudden appearance of soldiers-- that's not an ambush.
So I don't think ambush is a good enough word if the zombies falling out of the ceiling supports is simply a triggered physics event but the zombies are not already attacking and may never attack if the player keeps his cool and remains hidden in the shadows and then shoots them in the head and gets the stealth bonus as well.
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TFP should just streamline it to a suicide button in the upper left corner of the screen after pressing ESC.
Wait a minute....
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1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:
But we general players do not know how that works.
That's what I'm here for and I always appreciate it when someone is happy to learn that what they thought was happening was not what was actually happening and then go back and test with that new knowledge. As I said, I understand that it doesn't feel right and I agree that it doesn't feel right and needs more work. But we can help that work better coming at the problem from the correct starting point.
1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:And I can tell you: I didn't even know A19 had auto-wake up rooms.
Interesting...I could have sworn you participated in some of those threads.
1 hour ago, Viktoriusiii said:A20 is the first alpha where I actually don't bother going sneaking in pois anymore (started a game with friends).
I do and I am successful at stealth (even unperked) quite a bit but definitely not most of the time. But now that I read Boidster's experience I am going to have some rocks on my belt and test throwing whenever zombies wake up to see how often it is that they don't know I'm there. In my own opinion, I think it is alright for zombies to wake up and move around if they aren't automatically always gpsing on the player and if people have had the misconception that an awake zombie is always aware of the player and acting on that before ever finding out whether it was true or not, then absolutely it can feel like every room is ambush.
But I also realize that some players are going to prefer that the zombies don't ever wake up regardless of how aware they are of the player. Shooting them while they are sleeping is what "feels" most like stealth to them.
6 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:My ideal would be like 10-20% sleeping in random but not sneaky spots, 77-87% moving around, and 3% hiding - in places a zombie (or someone soon to turn) could reach. This could include the occasional closet but not like all the closets. 0% hiding in unreachable ceiling tiles would be nice.
For the 77-87% moving around is it okay if they go from dormant to moving around where you can witness that change happening? Or do you prefer them to already be moving around before you get to their area?
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31 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:
That sounds like two symptoms of the same problem, to be honest. If you don't trigger the "Drop from the ceiling" ambush you would never find those zombies. Running through making as much noise as possible seems to be the "correct" approach based on that.
Here's one way to look at it: Are there any PoIs higher than tier 1 with *no* ambushes? Because the expectation is that ambushes would just be an occasional thing. But to be honest, I've been conditioned to expect a jump scare in every room now, so whether it's 11/12 spawns or not, I definitely feel like ambushes are extremely overdone.
Could be two sides of the same coin of a problem. But then if you look at Boidster's post right above you, there also seems to be evidence that just because zombies drop out of ceilings or fall out of closets that it isn't necessarily an ambush. Yes, their appearance using physics rather than spawn is sudden BUT stealth is still intact. The zombies aren't aware of your location and you can still stealth kill them even though they aren't asleep.
I'll grant that there isn't always a way to know for sure that they don't see you other than remaining calm and crouched and see what they do after they get up from their ragdoll. (I guess you could throw a rock and see if they go for it rather than just wait with veins of ice to see if they walk past you or come at you) I, myself, have experienced that they do not always move to attack you right away. We are all using the word "ambush" but what does an ambush really mean? Is it an ambush if they aren't targeting you when they fall to the ground?
So I guess the real question is: Do we as gamers really just want them to stay asleep when we stealth and take that as the only sign that we were successful in our stealthiness or do we feel okay with being stealthy vs awake opponents that move around? It is a new system so there is going to be a learning curve but if we do learn that in 11/12 rooms some zombies will wake up but not necessarily know where you are and if you don't panic and can maintain your stealth and can still kill them with stealth bonuses is that a bad thing?
What is it we are really wanting? Stealth gameplay or unconscious enemies?
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30 minutes ago, Shockwave1 said:
I can see no valid argument against a checkbox for sharing all XP... vs only combat xp. Nobody has to check it off.
Me neither. We have a checkbox for enabling the creative menu after all.
31 minutes ago, Shockwave1 said:I see no reason for it to be hard coded to 10m. Why would that be necessary? You can always set it to 10m in your game why limit someone else?
In a game like this where everything can be modded, I agree. I was mainly trying to convey how important I feel it is to the integrity of the game rules and balance. I seriously have no power to hard code anything into the game and I see no reason either why groups couldn't have whatever setting they wanted as an option.
34 minutes ago, Shockwave1 said:There is simply no reason not to give this as an OPTION to groups that want it
Agreed.
35 minutes ago, Shockwave1 said:It is simply a FAR less fun game with people looking around for ways to equalize XP (letting someone use the nail gun on the structure I designed and built so they get all the XP for simply upgrading it).
I agree which is why I never worry about whether someone has more or less xp than me. I just play the game and spend skillpoints whenever they come available.
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28 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:
Honestly, just run any Clear mission and the problem is glaringly obvious. Closets and ceiling zombies galore. Or ones that just pop in suddenly. Even if you don't trigger their attack, you still have to beat down the closet door, watch them stand there reactionless while you shine a light in their face, and then decapitate them. It might be a failed ambush but it's still an ambush.
It isn't so cut and dry as you make out because we have another group of players who complain that they have to go back through and search for zombies that never woke up because they cleared the POI in stealth. So some are being too successful at stealth and others are being too much of failures at stealth. Both experiences are happening at the same time and it is because they need to give some attention to the stealth checks they've implemented. It's a big change with A20 being its first iteration. I'm not denying there's a problem but I do deny that TFP just made every room an auto ambush room. Its important to understand the actual design and how it was coded in order to identify the bugs or the way things should work. That is why I mention that the mechanic that everyone complained about in A19 is actually almost absent from the game by comparison in A20 as most auto wakeup rooms were replaced with stealth checks.
28 minutes ago, ElDudorino said:You know when you get the orange dots to indicate the last couple stragglers and one of them is just a floating dot when you reach it, but then the second you touch the dot suddenly 4 vultures dive bomb you out of nowhere? There's no way around triggering that if you're on a clear mission. And if you're not on a mission the ambush is still there, just not visible until you've triggered it.
Questioning whether it's a good or bad decision is one thing but I don't see how you can question that the design exists.
I don't question that it exists. I question that it exists in 11 out of 12 cases in any single POI. Yes, the vulture ambush exists and the level designers do want some of that in the game so I know they exist and will always exist since they want those types of encounters to happen. If those things are really happening in 11 out of 12 cases then we need to look at whether a bug is happening or if the stealth checks are too sensitive, or what might be going on but we also need to look at these things from a correct understanding of how volumes wake up in A20 vs how they woke up in A19 because it is not the same and people are assuming TFP just increased the auto triggers.
42 minutes ago, Viktoriusiii said:You often either can't reach the light source or can't destroy it without waking Z's up.
And if you can destroy a standing flashlight right next to them, but can#t crawl snailspace into a room...
something is horribly wrong and unintuitive.I agree that it isn't balanced well. When the POI light sources were designed there were no stealth checks based on light. The volumes either stayed asleep or woke up when you crossed the line. Now there are stealth checks but I really doubt faatal went through every POI to see what the ramifications of nearby light sources would be. Its definitely something that needs to be reported but once again it should be reported from a correct understanding of how stealth works in A20 as opposed to A19.
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11 hours ago, Scyris said:
Stealth being made completly useless, I'm sorry but ambushes and zombies coming of the close and cieling every single sleeper volume is just stupid. Once in a while would be fine but its far to often. IMO when the ambushes are triggered the zombies should NOT know where you are already they should just wander around the room. Early game these ambushes aren't that bad, mid/late game with ferals and radiated zombies they get extremly annoying as now you have 4+ ferals running at you in a small room that droped from the cieling.
TL:DR get rid of most of the stupid ambush sleeper volumes as some poi's are full of nothing BUT these and its tiring, they are not fun or engaging they are just an annoyance. Stealth is also useless as zombies seem super sensitive to the slighest sounds. I walk on a wood block and zombies 30+ blocks away somehow hear it. Also stop with the sleeper positioning to always be behind blocks so you cannot use sneak attacks on them, it looks stupid for one thing, as they are too well positioned for zombies, and it hurts stealth builds.
Stealth is still a WIP. It was changed significantly for A20 in that auto aggro volumes were almost completely removed and all volumes were replaced with stealth checks to wake up individual zombies. So those rooms are not ambush rooms in the way that we had them in A19. You are just failing most of your stealth checks. Being as how this is the first iteration of stealth checks, they will need some time and testing to get them tuned well so that as you perk into stealth you start passing more and more of them. It is not TFP's designed intention for every single room to always wake up. Currently, removing all nearby light sources so that you are in what the game considers pitch blackness is just as important if not more important than clearing rubble piles that cause noise.
I agree that they have some work to do to fix stealth so that it is not an impossible playstyle but I think the idea of doing stealth checks rather than automatically waking zombies is a step in the right direction.
11 hours ago, Scyris said:The zombies GPSing to poi's the player has entered also needs to be removed. Its extremly annoying to have to at times kill more zombies that wander in from outside than are in the actual poi. Case you don't know since A17 TPF put in a AI thing where second the player walks into a POI every spawned zombie in X distance will start to walk towards that poi, doesn't matter how quiet you are, or how good stealth is. You can test this, go into a enclosed room, where stealth is 1, use a kill all command, then advanced time so natural respawns happen and watch as they all start walking to the poi your in.
This is the breadcrumbs feature that was put in to cause wandering zombies to head into your general direction. I know it seems like they are coming to get you and know exactly where you are but they actually are not alerted to your presence yet and are not targeting you. They just are following a tasty breadcrumb trail of scents and signs that a living brain is in the vicinity somewhere in your direction. This can be tested easily by throwing a rock out of a window. All the wilderness spawns that wandered over to your POI will chase the rock which they will not do if currently targeting a player.
Now if they are able to bash their way into the POI and keep wandering to the point that they actually see or hear you nearby they will then aggro and target you.
11 hours ago, Scyris said:Like what type of a game is TFP going for here? As it used to allow player choice in builds, and now currently it really doesn't, you pretty much have to go in guns blazing due to how useless stealth has become. Do they want a more arcade like experience? is thats what they are aiming for? or do they want more of a survival game experience like the game USED to have. I still can't see a clear vision they have yet, which is sort of sad when its been in dev for close or even more than 10 years now. Most devs have a clear vision and plan before they even start to make the game, while TFP here seems like they just decide on things on the fly.
I still stealth and get headshots with arrows or bolts that kill immediately and do not wake other zombies. They do wake up a lot more often for me as well but it definitely isn't 100% guns blazing. It is a mix of stealth kills with other kills. If you want to be able to do a POI 100% stealth kills you will probably have to wait for them to tune things in some more and you probably won't be able to do it without destroying light sources and/or completely unperked even after they make changes.
I think if you look at the stealth footprint in the perks you can see what they have always been aiming for. There is no "stealth build". There is an Agility build that has a few stealth enhancing benefits. But this game was never aimed at being a stealth sim. I talked to the level designers about the complaints back in A19 with the auto aggro volumes and they said "There will always be some auto aggro ambush rooms because we are designing the dungeons to have specific types of encounters so it is our intention that people won't be able to stealth every POI 100% of the time. They are going to have to mix up their approach and response at times"
You've interpreted the change to A20 as them intending to make every room an ambush but I know that is not their intention. The end result of them changing auto triggered rooms to stealth checks per zombie has made it seem that way but they just need to adjust values so that the stealth check isn't so easily failed-- especially as you purchase stealth perks. I do agree with you that it isn't in a good place right now and needs some attention.
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10 hours ago, Scyris said:
Resturaunt_02
Sleeper Volumes: 12
Amount of Volumes that were ambushes: 11.
Thats right all but one of the sleeper volumes in this poi are ambushes with GPSing zombies that immedatly know your location the second you walk into the room, often they won't even spawn till you trigger it, which means no option to use stealth period other than that 1 volume with a single zombie dog where it actually spawns before you enter the room.
Can we see the code on that? I really doubt that 11 of them are coded as ambush volumes. Just because you wake them up does not mean they are ambush volumes. It means you failed your stealth check. But show me in the code that 11 out of those 12 volumes are flagged as ambushes and I'll believe you and join you in criticizing that design. Otherwise, you have to destroy light sources and increase your perks to have a good chance at not waking zombies up. It is much harder now in A20 but I know that the intended design was to make almost all volumes do stealth checks and only a very few being auto aggro ambush rooms.
That being said, I have seen a lot more rooms in which zombies are spawning right before my eyes. I step in and there is nothing and I back up and then step forward again and they spawn often in places I can see so I think there is a bug going on with it but intentional design where all the volumes in any one POI are designated as ambush volumes is something I doubt highly and am not going to believe it just based on the fact that they woke up when you walked into the room.
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On 1/19/2022 at 2:38 AM, Phil said:
After having my leg broken and I can't remember how. I managed to make a splint. So not much longer for the ouch part. I saw a vulture overhead circling for it's next meal. I managed to limp under a tree. When it was flying away from me I decided to hobble and limp to the next tree. Not sighted. Fool that I am I decided to limp away from the location, the flying beastie dive bombed me, I had my trusty poke in the stick, while I was fight that I was being attack at ground level by a snake. At this point some swear words came from my mouth.
The end part, I am now in a bad way, infected injured but alive with some snake meat to go with my eggs and both nasty beasts DEAD.
Great Story!
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We used to have a thread for players to share some of their stories since this game can result in some amazing stories emerging out of gameplay. If you would like to share your story, please post it in this thread. Here is a link to the original thread (which has been archived and so cannot be reopened) if you care to read some older stories of yore.
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I’m waiting. I’m still playing the current stable version.
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2 minutes ago, BarryTGash said:
They'll learn and then they won't be brand new any more so any complications or consequences specifically avoided for a brand new player's benefit shouldn't really interfere with the gaming experience of everyone else. I've said before, paraphrasing: bring new players up to speed, don't lower the speed limit for everyone else especially considering new players vs existing players is probably around the 5-8% mark (real rough estimation, TFP probably have a better grasp on this).
If brand new players really need more hand-holding then maybe the tutorial quest needs revamping and/or preferably, a tutorial map be created that guides that player through their first encounters with zombies and their senses.
okay. I didn’t advocate for hand-holding but okay.
I made a joke about wearing a primitive day one light source on your head and going out into the night. That’s all. I’m all for noobs learning stuff the hard way. 😀
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So I decided to track Sleeper volumes in Poi's and how many are ambushes.
in General Discussion
Posted
Correct. ApproachAndAttackTarget cannot be stealthed unless and until the player gets out of sight and allows the timer to resolve. Once a zombie sees you and knows you are there you can't just crouch and it immediately loses you (ahem...that was A16 at night)
As far as I know, the stealth check is only used to determine whether a sleeper will wake up. Failing a stealth check does not mean that the zombie saw you. It means that it did not remain asleep. When it wakes up it either sees you right away and moves to attack you or it does not see you and it moves to investigate the noise that woke it up. When you are in stealth with awake zombies in the vicinity the game is not rolling stealth checks. If you are in a state of stealth and a zombie is nearby you will stay in stealth unless the zombie sees you.
So when you are outside at night there are no stealth checks because you are not activating a sleeper volume. Those zombies outside cannot see you so even if you wound them with an arrow and then back up a bit you are still in stealth because they can't see you. They just know where the arrow came from or heard the twang and come running to investigate that and if it is dark enough so that they don't see you there is no stealth check that you can fail.