Roland
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Posts posted by Roland
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20 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
But generally it´s a bad idea to let the majority deceide.
Its not the majority choosing. Its just Rick who makes the final decision and that's what he went with. Its not about the majority choosing the descriptor, its about the majority not being disappointed by their expectations based on the descriptor. Only a minority will be disappointed that it didn't live up to their expectations.
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4 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
It´s only about how customers perceive it when looking at the description.
Great. Then 7 Days to Die qualifies for all the customers who perceive it that way and I am confident that enough people do that the description does not warrant editing.
6 minutes ago, Matt115 said:Well it's heavyweight championship - if project zomboid is hardcore - then everything have to be similiar to project zomboid to be hardcore - like green hell. And Project zomboid is from this same years as 7dtd so 7dtd is "casual" vs project zomboid - yes there are game you can call less hardcore but still hardcore like MG survive but 7dtd is almost MC tier
I appreciate your opinion. I agree that 7 Days is not the most hardcore. I don't believe that makes it casual. I think it is far beyond Minecraft though. But minecraft I would put far beyond 7 Days for mining.
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2 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
Hardcore basically means top of the line here. And that´s simply not true. Not even close. And it doesn´t matter what someone thinks when playing 7 days for the first time. If they go and play a game with a harder survival part after playing 7 days they will realize that the description of 7 days was wrong even though they thought it was hardcore when playing it for the first time.
How would you define the survival part of games harder than 7 days? If 7 days is a hardcore survival experience what is the definition that describes the survival experience of The Long Dark or Green Hell then?
So only one game at a time can ever claim itself to be hardcore? I don't think so. "hardcore" isn't the heavyweight championship belt which only ever belongs to one person at a time. "hardcore" is the heavyweight category of which many belong and strive to be the champion. If the description said "king of all hardcore survival games" I would agree that it is a lie but just because there are other games more hardcore doesn't mean every single game below the most hardcore can't also claim to be hardcore. I disagree with this way of defining who gets call themselves hardcore.
7 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:How would you define the survival part of games harder than 7 days? If 7 days is a hardcore survival experience what is the definition that describes the survival experience of The Long Dark or Green Hell then?
They can also say they are hardcore. And if they wanted to give us a mention in their own description by saying "Even more hardcore than 7 Days to Die!" I would be delighted.
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This is how I would rank 7 Days to Die on several elements on a casual to hardcore spectrum. Happy to discuss my reasoning with anyone who disagrees and would move the sliders.
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6 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:
@Roland Sure. I know that. If you see it from a black and white perspective it´s flatout lying to the customer though.
2 hours ago, meganoth said:I agree. A description doesn't need to lie to put a positive spin on anything.
Just want to point out that I don't believe that "hardcore survival" is a lie and that's why I don't feel any motivation to tell Rick that it should be changed. It may not be as hardcore as other games but it is more hardcore than other games. I think the description is fine and apt. Some of you will believe with your whole soul that the description doesn't fit because of your own definition of what hardcore should entail. That's a valid opinion but it doesn't make the advertising description an outright lie.
If the description only said survival instead of hardcore survival I also wouldn't feel an overwhelming moral responsibility to get the word hardcore added. I don't disagree with a player's perspective that for them the game is not hardcore survival. It is always interesting to hear other perspectives and I, myself, would be happy to see a few more tweaks towards more hardcore survival. But that doesn't mean TFP has an obligation to change that description. I disagree that it is false advertising.
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What's better? 1000 barrels each exploding once or one barrel exploding 1000 times?
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5 minutes ago, Matt115 said:
night of living dead + dawn of dead reference -
So you meant Romero?I thought you were making a Shakespearean reference…
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17 hours ago, Matt115 said:
"romeo" variant --> zombie teenagers
Awesome! lol
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On 8/28/2022 at 7:54 AM, Gamida said:
Couple of fan made vids that I got a kick out of.
Loved the first one and yes-- definitely that she's stepping to the beat and laughed out loud that the second one is presented as a sing-a-long...lol
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Man, this is a QA Smurf's wet dream. @Laz Man @Jugginator @unholyjoe are going to be coming around and begging for seed, house, and coordinates
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29 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:
I...really don't know that I'd call that system better. Tedious and annoying are what come to mind. It wasn't hard, it wasn't a challenge, it was just tiresome. Having to spend 20 seconds hitting "W" on a few inventory items isn't what I would consider better. It also wasn't just when changing biomes. You could go from freezing to sweltering in a matter of a few real life minutes while staying in the forest biome.
I'm honestly not sure how weather could really be better without it killing the whole "we're forcing you to go out an explore" thing TFP seem focused on at this point. I don't think most people would be real happy about having to stop and build a fire/set up a tent every few minutes, then wait a few minutes to "recover" before you can go out and explore further.
I agree-- but then I'm not necessarily hoping for hardcore weather survival either. That's the thing about going more hardcore into anything. People who are hardcore into it love it but everyone else sees it as tedious. We get people saying we need food spoilage and then a bunch of others pipe in and say that food spoilage ruins games because it is so tedious and isn't a challenge anyway-- it just is no fun. But the people who want hardcore survival will say that the food spoilage is fun and without it 7 Days really can't be considered a real survival game. I'm sure that there are people excited to have to change clothing and gear up for different climates and don't see it as a chore to have to dress for the weather and they hate it right now that weather is so....casual.
4 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:I can agree with that. Just don´t call it hardcore survival when there is games that actually deserve using that superlative way more. Compared to many other games the survival elements aren´t hardcore. Not at all. Just because people think it´s hardcore doesn´t mean that´s true. How should the real hardcore survival games be called then so that the customer can tell the difference? uber super duper hardcore survival? Calling this game a hardcore survival experience is misleading. That´s the whole point. No one in this thread is asking to make it hardcore (many of us wish for it to be harder, that´s true, but that is not the point in this thread). Just pointing out that the description about the survival part is wrong.
And that has nothing to do with skill or hours played. Those games like Green Hell etc, are harder in their survival part. No matter if you are experienced or not, no matter if you are a god tier gamer or generally suck at games.
It also doesn´t matter that this game might be a hardcore experience for some people. In the big picture the game still isn´t a hardcore survival game. It´s only hardcore for the person playing it. That´s not a reason to use a false description.
Its perfectly acceptable to use superlatives when advertising your game. Every product on earth describes itself in self aggrandizing terms. Like I said, MANY people will buy the game and play and go "whoa this game is way more hardcore than I thought it would be" and others will snicker at the label and wonder what TFP was smoking when they tried to pass off their game as hardcore survival. It doesn't really matter what the objective truth is when the perception is going to be so broad. If it was universally accepted that 7 Days to Die wasn't a hardcore survival game then we would probably feel the pressure to remove it but there is enough of a perception spectrum about it that the truth is nebulous and so when some people complain that the game isn't hardcore we are more likely to think those people are just super duper hardcore elites rather than agree that the game itself is more on the casual side of things.
I really can't see ANY company billing their product as a mediocre version of what it does. That just is not done. That comes through in reviews and videos for people who want to research outside of what the company is presenting itself as. But TFP is not going to say, "Take Green Mile and soften it up about 1000% and that's OUR game!!!" Instead, they are going to be like "Take Minecraft and ratchet up the fear, survival, and blood 1000% and that's OUR game!!!" Its a brag. Its the picture of the Big Mac on the billboard...not the actual Big Mac in your hands....
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6 minutes ago, Matt115 said:
Well that's my point - i want something in realistic style - usual overhaul looks ... F2P zombie mobile games 😕
I wish 7dtd was looking like no more room in hell 2 or contagion
I wish you would learn to mod. I would definitely like to try out what you would define as the perfect version of 7 Days to Die for Matt115. None of the current modders seem to share your vision so the obvious solution is for you to learn and do it. I expect it by A22.
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22 hours ago, Melange said:
I suppose that I could list a lot of reasons for GAME OVER...(no, not RAGE QUIT). A sense of futility perhaps? Or maybe feeling I made some wrong choices, or missed some opportunities and want to explore coming at the game from a different angle? Which I do, and I must admit I have done it often. But. The next session I start always plays out differently because of my immediate choices in game, what initial game settings I chose and what is dealt to me by RNG. And I believe it is that freedom of randomness that keeps me coming back.
Now, what keeps me wanting to continue a session? When my stuff is at level 5 and I want it all to be level 6 is one reason.
Later, I'm maxed out at level 6 gear and weaponry of my choice. Have hit the T5 POI's so many times I can do it blindfolded....until I screw up because of over confidence. And either its a serious brush with death for my character or its a final curtain call, I just hang it up. Each time I play a committed 'long' game I will inevitably reach a plateau of indifference and perceived futility for continuing.
Be aware, I do not fault TFP for this. So hold your horses if that's what you're thinking. I have read TFP are addressing the late game experience, and I look forward to it. But I will say TFP have delivered quite an engaging game, warts and all. And after 11k hours I still can discover something new. What? I can get acid by wrenching wall-mounted industrial medical stations? Yeah, I did learn that this week. 😄
What you're describing is the post endgame doldrums that you get from any game that lets you just keep playing in the world after the story is over and credits have rolled. This game just doesn't have the final event or the credit roll yet. So in the future you will reach a point where you will either be able to topple the Duke or Noah and the credits will roll but the game will most likely let you continue to play if you want and it will be just as it is now-- doing whatever until you get bored and decide to start over.
I really doubt TFP is going to download a DLC with extended story and advanced content designed for characters level 200 - 300 at some point. I fully expect that the current late game gameplay we all do until we finally get bored and decide to start over is going to be exactly the same as it will be once the story is in. You'll finish the story, watch the credits, and continue playing in the world with no more story objectives until you get bored.
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Message sent.
Out of curiosity what alpha was the last one you played and what do you think about A20? Anything surprise you in a positive or negative way when you started playing again?
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3 hours ago, Matt115 said:
"the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival." WHAT.THE..... 7dtd too hardcore sounds like the best joke ever. Maybe years ago when people were much younger that now. But because they had lower skills.
All that this signifies is that you have an inability to understand things from someone else's perspective. You act like the world is full of slightly different versions of you when, in fact, the world is filled with people completely unlike you. Terms like "hardcore" are in the eyes of the beholder. Some look at our hunger and thirst mechanics and call it too hardcore because you have manage them constantly and they would rather not have to deal with it. Back when weather survival was better, some didn't like having to change clothes to enter a new biome. They felt like that mechanic was too hardcore survival.
We are always getting feedback from people about the survival elements being too much. Some complain that it is just too hard while others say that it is too focused on realism instead of fun (ie--sim like or hardcore)
This forum is not a good guage for that as most people here want things to be even more hardcore than they already are and cringe at the streamlining and abstraction of survival elements. Any time the game edges away from sim-like towards arcade-like people here get uncomfortable. But that isn't everyone who plays or who wants to play this game by a longshot.
There are plenty who see this game as very hardcore and even too hardcore in its present state for their liking. We even have mods that change the game to be less hardcore like we have mods that push it further towards more. One that comes to mind is the one that makes all the animals friendly and all of the zombies neutral unless attacked first. Some people see that as the perfect amount of hardcoreness that they desire for the game. Someone else posted awhile back that the game shouldn't allow us to die but should just make us have to eat more by having damage hit our hunger gauge instead of having hitpoints and that we never should have to look at the player stats page and see number of deaths. That was too hardcore for comfort for them.
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5 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:
Tu Quoque. You really love those fallacies.
Except that Jost wasn't trying to justify his argument or his own behavior by saying "You're doing it too". He was simply pointing out your hypocrisy. Tu Quoque is a fallacy when a person avoids talking about the the argument and instead focuses on how the person is behaving badly. Jost is addressing your points AND pointing out how you are not adhering to the same level of discourse you accuse others of violating. Instead of offering a counter-argument you simply say that the discussion is over.
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2 hours ago, Buwaro said:
Hey @Roland how big is the water voxel approximately, could open up fluid systems in future alpha's if it's small enough, I'm thinking pipes, pumps, valves, fountain blocks(both natural and unnatural to give the illusion of a water fall), Drains, Water sensors(acting as a trigger for devices), working water towers. and what will happen to the waterfall in the desert of Navezgane, is it gonna be removed or just leak water everywhere?
All voxels in the game are basically the same size 1mx1mx1m. Even half-blocks and quarter-blocks maintain the full 1m cubed space which is why floating bases are a thing and when you try to build a base on some POI roofs, everything you place floats above the roof instead of resting flush. While the devs have created some multi-block shapes which make for much larger shapes, there are no micro voxels in the game and there are no plans to add them. Therefore, water voxels are the same size as all other voxels and there are no plans to do micro versions of water voxels to behave as you are describing.
Meganoth is correct that water has a unique property that allows it to flow into the empty spaces of other voxels so that you won't get the visual effect of a cube of water floating above a half-block or see airgaps between voxels and poles and fences. Water voxels are allowed to exist within the space of other voxels but wouldn't be able to flow in a narrow stream through pipes etc.
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1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:
Hard doesn't translate into "hardcore survival" though.
I'm fully aware the game has settings to make the game as easy or as difficult as you like, but has nothing to do with the survival mechanics (for now).
This is probably a good point and I'll admit I was thinking more of difficulty to survive more than realistic sim-like survival settings. The devs do spend a lot of time (more than I would if I was at the wheel) trying to make sure death loops don't happen and you could probably point to other games that are more on the sim side of things where survival is concerned. Our game is definitely not a simulation and Joel is fond of reminding people about that.
But, I think it still is a fine description since there are also games that are a lot more on the arcade side of things survival-wise. I know I wouldn't spend the time necessary to go and edit it at this point. And who knows, there is still some tweaking to be done, bandits to be added, and a random event manager to destroy our routines. Maybe by the final version it will edge over a bit more to the hardcore side of things.
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Everyone puts their hard-core pin in a different place. I think the description is fine. Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. We get posts and emails all the time complaining that the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival. The huge experience we as have as veterans completely warps our view of what is hard-core and what is negligible.
I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.
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16 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:
As for Roland, I'm not interested in discussing anything with you anymore. You didn't bother addressing my points properly
I will address them point for point regardless of you not wanting to engage with me further. They will be for the benefit of other readers and you need not feel obligated to answer.
On 8/29/2022 at 12:05 AM, Beelzebubs Ghost said:I distinctly remember discussing at a point previous exactly the option to have both - nomadic wild planting for roaming players, and box plot farming for an integrated decorative yet functional setup
Don't try that with me, sir. You won't get away with it. Neither will you find a stronger proponent of more choice than me.
This would be a good point if it were remotely possible. I acknowledge your desire to be inclusive and have as many options as possible for everyone to be able to play as they wish. In this particular case (farming) the path to more options will have to be modding. Regardless of whether you personally believe that is a legitimate or relevant solution, it is, in fact, the reality. There will be no wild planting in addition to box planting in the unmodified vanilla version of the game. You can take that as an official TFP answer.
On 8/29/2022 at 12:05 AM, Beelzebubs Ghost said:I have never suggested the developers remove a feature entirely; that isn't ridiculous, without suggesting alterations or alternative options; wherever non-modded possible alternatives are feasible, and especially never to spite other people out of a particular playstyle. Ever.
I appreciate your good intentions. But in the end, it doesn't matter whether you come up with a good alteration or alternative options or if your reasons were for the betterment of all and not to spite anyone. If you call for a change, there will be some people who don't like it and won't like the alternative you proposed. Everything you don't like about the game right now, there are others who like it. If you had the power to change it to the way you want it would upset others.
Therefore, the best option for alternative gameplay is modding because it leaves the game as it intact for those who like it that way and allows others to play differently and nobody gets upset. Wild planting exists currently as a mod and so anyone who prefers that to box planting can do it. Adding option sliders is another great option but not every change that everyone wants can be made as an option and we, as players, don't have control over what goes in as an option but we do have control over what mods happen.
On 8/29/2022 at 12:05 AM, Beelzebubs Ghost said:Some examples of the topics of my objections, and relevant suggestions:
- Farming.
Adjusted system (perks and harvest) - and the option of both wild planting and box planting.
- Character development.
Combination of Learn by Doing (Mining, stamina exercise etc) and Learn by Looting (Schematic unlocks) for a more sensible and tempered progression.
- Zombie digging.
Slider options to turn this on or off (Via disabling downward attack damage if animations cannot be isolated and disabled) for those who wish to avoid bloodmoons dynamically without tampering with options.
We talked about farming. I don't object to your idea but officially, I can tell you, that isn't going to happen.
Character development is the same problem. The devs are not going to return to LBD. Again, I am confident in officially announcing that LBD is not going to be part of the character progression design for 7 Days to Die. Your only pathway for having LBD is via modding.
Zombie Digging: I'm for this. It will depend on how much work it is with the "digging" being integrated into the pathing if they wish to do it. But I have no objection to a switch for digging like there is for feral mode. And I hope you notice the difference in my answer with this. I don't know for certain whether that option will exist someday. It is still a possibility. That should emphasize even more my definitive answers regarding farming and LBD. Zombie Digging is a maybe.
On 8/29/2022 at 12:05 AM, Beelzebubs Ghost said:The fact you can mod is irrelevant. My discussion is focused primarily on vanilla play with reference to mods to demonstrate that certain things are still possible without necessarily messing up the game, and employed to make a particular point.
That's nice for a thought exercise but its also like saying "Assuming we have the ability to breathe underwater lets discuss the viability of underwater cities" That would be an interesting discussion but also a waste of time. You can say that you want to only use modding as way to show some things are possible for the devs, themselves, to do and to make some point but the reality is that for some features modding is going to be the only solution. Farming and LBD are two examples of that. That makes modding relevant to the discussion, like it or not.
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17 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:
I am getting to that point in my current playthrough as well. Nearing day 100, never made it this far and I'm finding myself wondering what my next hurdle should be. When do I call it good? I don't see this as a downside like some other players. Starting a new run is its own kind of fun. But I feel silly just abandoning this run. I've built a horde base in the wasteland to up the challenge (and let's face it, the reward as well). It's a pretty solid base and I don't see it failing anytime soon.
I've decided that before I call this run successful, I want to build a "dream home" in a nice secluded area that would theoretically be hard to get to for zombies (obviously there's a bit of RP there-zombies in this game will always find a way 😆) I've found a nice tall mesa in the desert that is only accessible by air. Breathtaking views, plenty of space for a modest home and a small garden. I've begun designing the layout of the place and as soon as I can get it built and self-sustainable, I'll retire and say goodbye to all the hustle and bustle of horde night preparation. Maybe read a book or two.
Then onto the next run.
This dream home scenario seems so familiar to me...
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18 hours ago, Melange said:
For me, its a mixed bag. Early game in co-op play, I generally stay at the base location and build. The other members go out and loot. When they return, they have labelled storage to put their bounty, maybe some cooked food and drink. And I get to read the extra magazines. Maybe they bring a better quality tool or primary weapon too. During the day I'll harvest stone and clay, craft cobblestone and then upgrade the weakest parts of our base. As our abilities progress, I see to it that forges are fed, food is prepared, and we're making concrete mix. And I'm the one upgrading the blocks. So' I don't feel left out at all. Sure, their loot stage may grow and their XP exceeds mine. Sometimes I do mining, and making bundles (if I know the perk) does give a nice XP boost. At least this gives a semblance of improving base safety and the organization of loot. Or I could go out and loot with them early game. But in the long run, someone has to be Den Mother and strive for order on the homefront. The warrior is generally not a gardener.
Once established, we all go out together. I usually allow the 'looters' to open the good loot chests because they will get the better items. And they'll give me some. It is cooperative play, not competetive play.
Later on, we're all kitted out with the best armor, tools and weapons. Because we worked together, by division of labor, to achieve this. Then we all share in the rush of Tier5 poi's and horde night. Yeah, maybe their XP and Loot numbers might be bigger than mine...so what?
Remember that magazines only control crafting. Period. They don't grant special skills and abilities like the books do. If your crew didn't do much crafting in A20 but as "Den Mother" you did, then it would be extremely dumb of them to read magazine and give you the left overs. They should give you every mag they find so that you can craft everything at the highest level.
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11 hours ago, Jost Amman said:
Do you think that allowing players to have both types of farming won't impact food balancing? It will.
It doesn't matter what he thinks. Having both types of farming as part of vanilla is a fantasy. To experience multiple versions of farming people will have to download mods. It is simply the truth and it really is pointless to pretend that there will be additional farming features available in the vanilla version of the game. Let's not even entertain this notion or perpetuate the idea that it might happen. It will not.
In fact, I'll go so far as to say that talking about alt versions of farming is off topic for the A21 thread and should be confined to modding requests subforum because that is the only way he will ever farm in some other way than what is in vanilla.
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10 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:
You can't help being dishonest and misrepresentative can you?
I'm being straight with you as promised. No joking or anything. What I stated is truth as I see it. You can call me a liar but then you are failing to abide by the standard YOU insisted discourse should be maintained at.
10 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:The fact you can mod is irrelevant.
No. It is 100% relevant for two reasons. First, the developers designed the game to be modified by the community. Secondly, there will never be another option other than what we have now for farming in the vanilla game. So modding is your only shot at having options in regards to farming. Let me say that again. Modding is your only chance to have a different version of farming than we currently have.
10 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:If you aren't going to engage honestly you can take a hike.
I'm not going anywhere and I am being brutally honest. If you don't accept the truth as I have outlined it then there is nothing I can say other than, wait and see and you will see that when the devs wrap up the game and it is done farming will be via farm plots and to do otherwise you will have to load a mod and then you will finally have to concede that I was always telling the truth. Until then, I guess you will have to live in denial.
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Hard-core survival description on Steam store
in General Discussion
Posted
Possibly they'll be disappointed or possibly they'll just feel like they graduated to a higher level of hardcore and not hold any grudge against 7 Days to Die for daring to call itself hardcore. I believe the second to be true. Honestly, you sound like those regulars at the comic book store who argue every little definition and continuity issue and care about all the minute details which makes them disappointed in certain issues that nobody else in the world who reads the comics cares about. Frankly, I doubt we could ever satisfy the hardcore survival elite fans no matter what.
Regardless, shortsighted or not, the description isn't likely to change.