Roland

March 23, 2021

Everyone has different levels of sensitivity to negativity and sarcasm. Any time you post something with a bite to it you run the risk of offending someone else who is sensitive to that sort of thing. That doesn't mean we can't be sarcastic or negative but if we are going to post on the more provocative end of the spectrum, we should also be willing to apologize for any unintended hurt feelings we caused (if that ends up happening) as well as be willing to back off on our tone and focus on the point of our post. Really, it just makes sense that if our tone and way of delivering our message is getting in the way of our point then we ought to make a change if we care at all about our point getting through.

Everyone has a bad day at times and may post more roughly than they might otherwise and dry sarcastic humor doesn't always translate well. I think any message board on the internet is always just one post away from going toxic because that is just the nature of anonymity paired with egos. If someone crosses the line, in your opinion, report the post and do nothing else. People who post toxic messages religiously check for responses to see who they might have provoked. Giving them crickets until their post is hidden by a moderator is the best troll you can send back to them.

Finally, the poop reaction emoji carries no negative forum penalties. There is no negative reputation associated with it.

March 23, 2021

5 hours ago, dahkdm said:

From this thread, wow this community is acting toxic. I think the game is great and I'm excited for A20 and all future Alphas. Especially for bandits.

A worse problem is derailing the developer's diary from discussion with the developer about A20 to a bunch of people arguing about the meaning and levels of toxicity in the overall forums. This is why there is a rule to simply report offending posts and otherwise ignore them. In the future, if you find a post toxic, report it and don't respond to it. If you want to discuss ways to make the forums a better place start a thread in general discussions for that purpose instead of trying to do it in the official developer diary thread. This goes for everyone. Please don't just post whatever non-A20 development topics that come to your mind in that thread. They are off topic.

March 23, 2021

7 minutes ago, Exxodous said:

Out of stock already?

It’s okay. It has stone axes on it. Wait for your gamestage to improve enough for the one with Ak47s.

March 23, 2021

First of all, I never told you to go play Minecraft instead. I wasn't even talking to you in that post and what I said was that if people don't want to build unsupported bridges there is always Minecraft. That is not the same thing as telling you to just leave and go play Minecraft instead of playing this game. You supplied all of that aggression yourself and then misdirected it at yourself when I was clearly talking to RIngkeeper.

Secondly, I like to deal in reality. It would be nice if Deadman Gulch was just a few blocks narrower or if the SI just extended a few blocks longer but they don't. I wasn't trying to be patronizing. I was being pragmatic. Build supports for the bridge and provide a way for the zeds to ascend that you can control. That is actually the most helpful suggestion made in this entire thread. Everything else has been pipe dreams about how awesome if SI might work differently but....it doesn't. Wondering about how the bridge might have extended without supports in a setting that never existed for the game is also unhelpful for the here and now. I'm sorry you don't like my actual help but if you are looking for actual solutions for bridging the gap of Deadman's Gulch....listen.

So please stay and build the bridge. Play Minecraft too if you like. The two games aren't mutually exclusive. And don't look for ways to take offense especially when comments aren't even directed at you.

March 22, 2021

2 hours ago, Murkules said:

I know you can just build pillars as supports but the bridge clearly didn't have them pre-zombie apocalypse, don't see why that should be any different considering we have access to all the same blocks/materials they did?

That's a nice backstory you're adding but no....the bridge never existed pre-zombie apocalypse. The developers did not build the bridge finished and then blow it up in the middle. It was constructed as it is now--- a partial bridge with a bit on each side. So there was never ever a full unsupported bridge built there using the same blocks/materials they did.

2 hours ago, Murkules said:

Plus pillars are not a great solution seeing as any zombies that fall down will often simply attack the base of the pillars to get to you as they won't have a valid path.

They are if you give the zombies a valid path...

March 22, 2021

So really it seems to come down to the change in the skill system that soured 7 Days a bit. I don't agree that having an xp point system for purchasing perks you want vs grinding for those perks through repetition is any more or less freeing. I see them as both being confining in their own ways and freeing in their own ways.

XP point system lets you do whatever you want in the game-- any activity of your choice-- and you can still progress in the skills and perks you want to progress in. That is very freeing. It is more confining because some combos of skills you might want to do will be more expensive and take longer to do. It also is a more abstracted system and not as immersive-- although as I've stated many times you still CAN play it immersively by making sure to do activities that relate to how you want to spend your points (if that sort of immersion is important to you).

LBD lets you easily work on any skills in combination simply by doing the activities required to up those skills and it is neither more or less expensive to do so. You grind what you want. However, you are stuck having to do a lot of that activity--perhaps more than you find to be engaging and fun in order to get it to a high skill. LBD is very immersive when played in a natural manner the way it is intended as a model of real life living.

Both systems get screwed up and cheesed by people who care more about efficiency and min/maxing more than anything else.

I like both systems. I don't feel confined at all by the perk system in 7 Days but I can understand that others might. I think both systems are valid and good designs and 7 Days could have kept LBD and been a great game and Valheim could go to a point system and remain a great game. Of course, those players who hate one system or the other would not be happy but you can't help what people prefer or dislike.

March 22, 2021

8 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

If you did not consider Valheim a tower defense game that I think you did it wrong. Especially for boss fights, I found building preparation very important. For the weird wandering hoard things, defenses were also important.

Perhaps I have been doing it wrong. building defenses before summoning a boss is a good idea. I hear campfires work well... I kid...I understand your point about every game having cheese tactics.

11 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Building in 7 days isn't even necessary. Hell a few players lay down some barb wire for horde nights and just jump back and forth over it killing.

Some people would call this part of

the sandbox element of 7 Days being preserved. You can build a base, fight out in the open, makes some small adjustments to a POI, design a kill corridor...whatever strikes your fancy-- all of those are viable options without the devs designing things so that the only way is that building is necessary.

13 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

If you want specific comparisons, then let's talk about the hand holding that the skill tree does. 7days guides you throughout. In order to get this, you must do that first. In order to do that, you must do these. Specifically, the skill/perk system.

Sure, you *could* ignore that entirely and play without leveling up the very specific paths, but then again you could turn your monitor off and play.

I'm fairly certain that Valheim will eventually have "handholding" as well once they realize the number of people playing with the wiki open... Valheim has the same exact you must do this to do that mechanic- you just prefer the fact that you must sit by a fire for awhile to get the rested perk rather than spending a point for it. You like your chopping skill to go up as you chop trees instead of spending a point for it to go up. That's fine. But don't kid yourself that you aren't being forced to do something in order to get something.

20 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

"Back in the good old days" when you learned skills from books and increased skill by doing, you weren't tied to a literal skill tree. It encouraged exploration and planning.

Actually back in the good old days there were no skills or learning by doing. Then there was for a time and then there wasn't learning by doing any longer. LBD has its strengths but also its weaknesses. I like both systems. 7 Days is fun with the point system and Valheim is fun with its LBD. I think one of the weaknesses of Valheim's LBD is that at least for me, it kills any desire to start a fresh game with a brand new character. But, maybe the game would still be fun with all the skill progression already mostly done as you say.

24 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Right now you don't *ever* have to leave a decent sized town. Ever.

Do you want to be forced or don't you...?

24 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

You touched on it with your explanation of valheim... One you have your character you could replay the game with that character, and I bet you'd still have fun. There would still be a challenge. A two star firling will still mess your day up.

Do that in 7 days and it'll be a yawn fest.

Maybe I'll try it in Valheim and see if it is fun or a yawn fest as well. For me, 7 Days to Die is great for starting over and trying new pathways and I think that part of it is that you can just play the game without having to grind in one specific way to get one specific skill increased. Your experience is holistic from playing and then can be spent to increase those skills you want. You can do anything if you are fine with just playing and spending points for those things you want to improve-- instead of trying to only spend points in the most efficient way possible. Just like POI's. You can explore them any way you like or you can limit yourself to the lighted path. Both can be fun but neither is forced.

March 22, 2021

Awesome! Thanks @Gazz

Quote

So just uncomment it and then duplicate it a few times changing the biome number so it applies to the other biomes and play around with the gamestage base-add value? Definitely going to play around with this. This adds to the player's gamestage so it will affect both enemies and loot, correct? This could give a rough approximation of what is coming without some of the "among other things" you mentioned.

so as a first stab at it like....

<passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="100">
           <requirement name="InBiome" biome="8"/>
       </passive_effect>
       
       <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="80">
           <requirement name="InBiome" biome="1"/>
       
       <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="60">
           <requirement name="InBiome" biome="5"/>
       </passive_effect>
       
       <passive_effect name="GameStage" operation="base_add" value="40">
           <requirement name="InBiome" biome="9"/>
       </passive_effect>

March 22, 2021

7 hours ago, Gazz said:

Yes, but that's been planned for a while now. Gamestage variation between different biomes is already possible (A19) with a simple XML mod but that's only part of it.

This is interesting. Which xml edit? I did a cursory look in spawning, loot, biome, and progression but couldn't see a value to edit that would affect gamestage one way or another by biome. This could be fun to play around with in A19. Could you point?

March 22, 2021

4 hours ago, Ringkeeper said:

Only thing you can do is build a pillar up in the middle (which looks meh) .

No..you could ALSO build 2-3 pillars up spaced apart as bridge supports much like rl bridges have and that can look much better than meh.

If you want to build structures that have no need of support there is always Minecraft.

March 22, 2021

On 3/20/2021 at 8:33 PM, Guppycur said:

One thing I discovered with Valheim is that if you just play, not min max, the progression just sort of works, without even really trying. I like that. There is a um... Special person... on the server that has crates and crates of stuff... That works for him. I like that. I chose to work with others, this person was more solo, but both worked. He was a little faster on boss beating than we were but it wasn't that far off. Both play styles worked. I had fun, and presumably he had fun, that's what counted... I don't have that experience with 7 days. 7 days forces you to a pace.

With 7days I don't get that sandbox feeling. I *have* to play by their rules, and the progression is always the same. There are some deviations between skill trees but ultimately it comes down to making lots of bullets and shooting lots of things.

Anyway, I didn't really intend to do a side by side comparison (although 7days of old did have those trees).

Could you, though? Your vague generalizations that 7 Days is on rails and you must do things in xyz order and that there is a forced pace and progression that is always the same isn't doing it for me-- without specific examples of what you are referencing comparing the two games I just don't see what you are claiming. I could say that Valheim "forces" you into a linear progression because there is no way you can go straight to swamp or plains and be remotely successful until you've done Black Forest at the least. I mean, I suppose on my second full playthrough of the game I could do whatever I wanted since my persistent character would already start the game with all skills progressed and all techs and tools unlocked... But on a first playthrough one could say in a general sweeping way-- Valheim is definitely on rails as far as exploration and progression and the devs force you into xyz--

Your example of one guy just spending time collecting stuff and filling boxes and going solo and you working with other players and both styles working-- I've played both ways in 7 Days (recently and not just "back in the day"} and they both work. Of course, just like for Valheim, it requires that you just play, not min max, not game the system to rush the progression-- it works.

I guess I just don't see what you are talking about in 7 Days as being forced to play a certain way. I certainly don't feel forced. I still play nomad at times, take over existing POI's at times, and build my own base from scratch at times. I still make my own objectives for the day and then carry them out and get distracted by other things that happen. I get that you don't like the streamlining of some of the processes like what they did with ore or removing sticks and fiber and shifting to a point system instead of an LBD system. I know you feel forced to follow the light path in POI's.

But none of that translates to the game in general being on rails and there is only one forced way to play and there is no sandbox feel. There are fewer steps to getting ore that you can use for crafting than there used to be. But that doesn't force you into one style of playing. In fact, everyone is so excited for the biome difficulty progression (just like Valheim has!) and yet....who can argue that that very mechanic isn't going to "force" even more linearity into the game? Sure, you can choose to go to desert or snow or wasteland during the first week but most will play the game in the "right" order just like they do Valheim.

So, yeh...some side by side comparison would be appreciated over generalized statements of feelings.

March 22, 2021

4 hours ago, beHypE said:

I know but that "mid to end game content" has been on 7 days to die's roadmap before Valheim even started being under development, not to mention Valheim has a roadmap of its own, so I think it's only fair comparing what the products have delivered as of today without taking into consideration any "will have should have"s.

I’m glad Valheim came out and the devs were able to play it before completely implementing their own biome difficulty progression. Hopefully, the things they like about biome progression in Valheim can inspire them as they design biome progression in 7 Days.

As Gazz said, they’ve had biome difficulty progression planned for awhile and it has to be a good thing to be able to analyze the pros and cons of a popular game that already has that part of the game implemented.

Same for Valheim— if they ever decide to go deeper with their own random nights of base defense, they have the benefit of having played 7 Days to Die to see what works and what doesn’t for them.

March 22, 2021

15 hours ago, beHypE said:

You can't do that with 7 days. The way the game is designed, it's basically a rush against the clock to be prepared by the next horde. Sure, you can turn off hordes or just play on 2 hours days with easy settings, but then the whole challenge is gone for the entirety of the game. You can't just hop in and do whatever you feel like depending on the day and your IRL energy level, you'll have to live with the decision you made when you first started playing (unless you constantly change settings which would feel gamey to the point of being close to cheating the game).

Well...you can ignore the first two or three bloodmoons and stay pretty safe on the roof of larger POIs if you just want to spend time clearing POIs or doing quests, or harvesting resources. That’s 21 days of playing however you want without feeling rushed to prepare for the horde.

You can also decrease the frequency of bloodmoons to once every 10 days or once every 14 days etc.

7 Days definitely has a tower defense emphasis that Valheim doesn’t. I see that as them being different types of games and I wouldn’t want either to change what they are to be more like the other in that regard. I’d rather just be able to play both depending upon my mood.

The boss progression is something I think 7 Days could definitely add to great effect. They could do it with bandits having a forest lieutenant, desert lieutenant, snow lieutenant, and wasteland lieutenant. Killing each one opens the way to the next and culminating in a showdown with either the Duke or Noah depending on which faction you went for.

But....they could also just as easily decide to save something like that for a sequel.

March 21, 2021

The tutorial pop up does not pause the game. The only thing that pauses the game is pressing ESC if you are alone in the world.

March 19, 2021

1 hour ago, doughphunghus said:

I do agree with this, as I really like having “too much to think about” when playing, meaning: so I go get water now, or craft xyz? I’m going to need xyz for something things, but I also need to mine abc for coal....

I see what you're saying and maybe this is what Guppy was talking about as well. I agree that Valheim really starts stacking up the tasks you need to do in order to reach whatever your next objective is and there is a lot of "I want to do A but that means I will first need to do B which requires I do C" type of thinking. Personally, I do that same type of thinking about 7 Days to Die as well-- although I am much more familiar with 7 Days to Die. Valheim required a lot of figuring out how to do C so I could get B which would let me do A and that exploration space is fun the first time you experience it for any game. but then--you've learned the process and it becomes just a process to play through.

The thing about Valheim, though, is that working through your list of tasks is pretty casual. I never feel that time matters. As novel as the tree chopping was at first, I hate chopping trees because it is click by click on the mouse. and now the novelty has worn off and really all I want to get is fine wood. Same thing when I need to go hunting for hides. When I know I need like 30 and so all my playtime is going to be running around shooting animals, it makes me not feel like signing on. Am I excited to reach the next boss and get to the next biome? yes. But the tasks I must do to prepare have become mundane and require a lot of time and effort- so.....I find myself playing less often now.

Of course, that's just me. Plenty of people are continuing to have lots of fun with Valheim. Nothing Valheim does right, btw, will change 7 Days to Die. The dye is cast for this game. But perhaps they will be inspired for the next game.

I LOVE the spatially relevent upgrades to workstations. I love the variety of workstations. I also wish 7 Days had more workstations and higher tiers of existing workstations. I also love the boss progression and the biome progression. It is a great way to pace the game and open new items and resources. Biome progression is coming to 7 Days but I doubt it will be quite as pronounced as Valheim. I don't think people will get absolutely rekt by going into say the desert in 7 Days before they are ready like you do in Valheim if you wander into or even sail too closely to a biome you aren't ready for yet...lol

March 19, 2021

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

And we are practically on rails these days... Do this, in this order, or die. Sandbox play is broken... I guess you technically could, but it's no longer fun. Not enough to do. And there used to be. The devs (well, Joel) have said time and again "we want you to do xyz". And it shows.

Say what...? What rail? What do you mean there is less to do than there used to be? I don't agree with this at all. I guess I would agree that we briefly had caves and they were a fun thing that we don't have any longer but we also didn't have caves before we did until we didn't again. What else was there that we could that we can't now? I don't feel anyone dictating how I play or how I build. POI's are exponentially more interesting than they used to be. I guess there are "rails" there IF you follow the path-- which I don't. But even with the lighted path, the POIs are more interesting than the empty cardboard boxes we used to have.

I understand and have the same frustration about some of the simplifications but that doesn't put the game on rails or mean there is less to do. Wait...are you talking about LBD? I really don't like the LBD in Valheim. It kills replay value for me. I will never restart a new game with a new character the way that game is set up. Valheim will be a one-time playthrough for me...

March 18, 2021

3 hours ago, pregnable said:

When you said that, the image of turning the games story mode into a dating sim, where you date the traders, popped into my head.

I can see the player base romancing trader Rekt now, with a popup dialog box, with an anime bishounen version of him winking at you.

I believe the entire community supports you on this new vision of 7 Dates to Die.

March 18, 2021

52 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Yeh, that's why the game's player base back when it was hard was so small and the reviews were so poor.

...oh wait. 😉

But...the game's player base WAS small and as a fledgling game the number of reviews were also small. As the game gained notoriety and the player base grew then a larger population of reviews came in and there were a much more significant number of poor reviews based on the learning curve of the game. You always say you understand why the developers make decisions to turn this game more mainstream and approachable even though you dislike the changes and would like for it to keep it's unique and complex processes and unforgiving survival mechanics because it makes for a more interesting game. I agree that the complexity and unforgiving difficulty make for a more interesting game. I also believe that such a game will always remain niche.

Sure, those of us who were here at and near the beginning and are still here playing, figured out the mechanics and stuck with the game even though we died a lot at first. But that doesn't make us typical players. Typical players die several times and then call the game stupid and uninstall it-- or even worse...refund if that option is still available. So if you make a lower difficulty the new default but keep the old default as a higher setting then you are including a lot more people and those who like it tougher can turn it up and feel better about themselves.

March 18, 2021

9 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

By this logic then switching the default difficulty to Scavenger and the default number of zombies to 4 would make the most amount of sense, yes. Perhaps the default zombie speed at night should be set to walk? I'm being honest here (no sarcasm/mockery intended), I can see a conversation between two people where one brags that they have sprinting zombies at nighttime instead of walking ones so that nighttime isn't a cakewalk for them. Would you say the final point would be relevant?

Not taking sides here, just spitballing.

Sure, they could push the default even more towards the casual end of the spectrum but if what they have done so far hits the sweet spot of being seen as a gritty unforgiving and challenging survival game by the larger population and yet it is still approachable by most, then there is no need.

We could make the default Warrior and 16 max alive and jogging speed during the day and we would still get gamers coming around wanting to post, “This game is such a cakewalk...” but for the majority, they would be dying left and right on Day 1 and never put in the time needed to surmount the learning curve.

These days, people will refund the game within their two-hour window if they can’t handle the default difficulty rather than turn down the difficulty and play “baby” mode.

March 18, 2021

3 minutes ago, mstdv inc said:

so I have doubts that people are quitting the game because of the complexity of the default world settings

That’s because the default was lowered a couple of years ago now so the number of complaints about the game being too hard are much more scarce now—you’re correct. But they were plentiful back in the day as well as lots of conversations on the forum suggesting that people turn down the difficulty when they complained that the game was “unfair”.

You can believe what you want but I have the benefit of having seen things both before and after the default difficulty change.

Like I said, people like you will, at an instant, be willing to come here and admit that the game is sooooo easy and you can only get enjoyment by playing insane nightmare 64 max alive 25% loot permadeath. Those who struggle with surviving even at the present settings don’t like to brag about that fact. Instead they call the game “crap” and “poorly balanced” and “unfair”.

the game has ALWAYS had frame rate issues on certain hardware in the past, there were bad reviews about bad performance AND due to difficulty. These days, as you admitted, most bad reviews are about bad frame rates and that is because of a very smart change to the default difficulty that was made.

March 18, 2021

16 hours ago, pregnable said:

Have there been any advances where you guys feel like you will be able to up the default max alive zombie count to 16, or greater?

Doubtful this will happen. It is more about gamer psychology than tech limitations.

Gamers are more likely to rage quit and never play a game again and give that game a bad review rather than turn the difficulty down to an easier setting where they will have more fun. But gamers WILL turn the difficulty up on a game they find too easy for them and will often brag about the fact that they play at a higher than default difficulty setting whenever the opportunity presents itself.

That’s why default difficulty was changed from Nomad to Adventurer and why default max alive is more likely to move to 4 than it is to 16 if it needs to change at all.

March 18, 2021

26 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

I'm too lazy to start a new thread, so...

Or an unexplored discussion topic....

March 17, 2021

1 hour ago, doughphunghus said:

NOOoOoooopooo......

oh well. I will say “finding a blunderbuss” is extremely unlikely in real life, and finding two... three?! Of... the exact same blunderbuss!!! is even more unlikely .. but the ability to craft a “junk gun that shoots junk like a blunderbuss” would be nice to keep around though so I hope it makes a comeback, hopefully with some higher tier ammo just to make it fun. Having to find or craft shells for a junk gun is good... just miss that “feels like something I would actually try to make... if I didn’t have any real ammo”. Sure, the junk turret does this, but “automated aim rapid fire junk turret” is not something I would likely attempt to make in the end days (because It would likely one day just accidentally shoot me and my cat) even though I do love the junk turret.

The pipe shotgun looks pretty junky and definitely like it was jury-rigged together. Functionally it is the same as the blunderbuss but uses up shotgun ammo. There’s lots of shotgun ammo to be found...

March 17, 2021

2 hours ago, Aldranon said:

The big(?) problem is now a person needs to use "real" ammo. This is a tragedy for me as I often spec into shotgun. I'm a dirty shotgun min-max'er and I can run through many POI's with an auto shotgun, burning through shotgun ammo... OK, I know I can usually make more by then... What was the question?

OH! I guess I'm a little spoiled by the super easy early game (Often starting day 1-2) caused by blunderbuss.

OK, glad we had this talk and I hope I cleared things up for you!

Well if it eases the pain a bit, I heard a rumor that Al's Diner gives discounts on Bear Hugs and Blimp Rides to those who walk in wearing a Belt o' Shotguns. With perks like that, who could be against wasting a bit of shotty ammo?

2 hours ago, pregnable said:

So basically, what you are saying, if I understood correctly, is that....

Drones will have the ability to fight with pipe batons and stun batons, as though they were dancing swords, if you put them in their inventory... but only those weapons.

Great change!!! Glad you let us know!!!

Exactly! You're Welcome!

Now, that that is cleared up I wonder if I could interest you in the purchase of a particular bridge over Deadman's Gulch in Navezgane County-- going cheap....

March 17, 2021

Nothing wrong with carrying 5 pipe shotguns on your belt. In fact, everything is right with that.

Sign In

Profiles

Forums

Store

Articles

A20 Bugs

A21 Bugs

Bugs V1

Events

Posts posted by Roland