A meta-discussion about modding

[Kubikus]

I think the devs are going to do what they are going to do.

Oh really.

 

I think that those that want to do something, or have the inclination, will learn what is necessary to do what it is they want to do.

I disagree. People are inclined to do all kinds of things. But to begin with, they already don't have the time to learn everything. It's a matter of priorities. So there really is no doubt that it would be best if modding was made as accessible as possible. All you can find are arguments why it is not possible, not why that statement of mine is wrong. It might not be possible to make something very easy, for technical reasons. Like putting in new models and animating them and so on. That cannot work with just xml, I assume. But designing new biomes? Or tweaking the backward sprinting speed? What reason is there not to make that (eventually) possible with simple xml tweaks?

[DUST2DEATH]

Hey.

 

Imagine if you spent all this time that you do whinging, learning.

[Kubikus]

Hey.

 

Imagine if you spent all this time that you do whinging, learning.

The usual personal remark at the end of y'all's wits aside, it is an "all work and no play makes jack a dull boy" type of situations. Spending a significant amount of time learning how to tweak someone else's creative work just isn't high up on my todo list.

[DUST2DEATH]

Its not an attack, but any time someone calls your attitude or laziness out you play the victim.

 

It is what it is, a spade is a spade.

 

If you cant be bothered, why should anyone else be bothered to do anything for you?

[Kubikus]

Its not an attack, but any time someone calls your attitude or laziness out you play the victim.

 

It is what it is, a spade is a spade.

 

If you cant be bothered, why should anyone else be bothered to do anything for you?

Yeah but noone should do anything for me. I never asked for that. What the hell are you talking about? It's ridiculous.

 

Modding should be easy. So everybody and their mom can create cool mods. What's there to disagree with. Nothing. You disagree for personal reasons. It's transparent like thin air.

[DUST2DEATH]

I didnt see anyone disagree, I certainly dont.

 

It is easy, for those who can be bothered.

[Kubikus]

I didnt see anyone disagree, I certainly dont.

 

It is easy, for those who can be bothered.

I see. So what is your point in this discussion, then, if you agree with my statement? What is your contribution? Just the personal remarks? Kubikus is lazy, wants others to do things for him and such..? And you come to these conclusions how? Because I say "modding should be easy" - with which you agree? So you are lazy yourself and want others to do things for you?

 

 

lol

 

[DUST2DEATH]

No, because you say you cant be bothered.

 

If you have time to play 7 days, you have time to learn.

[Kubikus]

No, because you say you cant be bothered.

That's why I think it should be easy. I don't think you should do the work for me. Or anybody else.

 

If you have time to play 7 days, you have time to learn.

But if I spent the time I have to play 7 days with learning, I can't play 7 days. While, overall, this argument is an argument against my opinion, that it should be easy. So what is your opinion, after all?

[DUST2DEATH]

OK lets put it this way.

 

You want to do cool stuff. Well, you're gonna need unity.

There is a script to make the bundle, its provided for you, you dont need to learn that part.

 

So what cool stuff do you want to do? plants?

 

Great. Go buy a Speedtree subscription for a month, but then youre gonna have to learn how to use the software.

Then you're going to need the leave textures, and wood textures. OK, get Gimp, or pay for PS.

Theres free CC textures you can find around the net to use.

 

Too much?

 

Wanna do weapons?

You got blender? Its free, but you're gonna have to learn to use it.

No? You can always buy a model then, it comes with textures usually.

 

But, you're probably still going to want to learn blender to fix or make it actually work.

Then, you're gonna want to learn to animate it.

Dont forget sounds!

too much?

 

What about vehicles, you could do those right?

Still need blender, need to learn to rig them then.

 

No?

 

I dont know, it looks like it all comes back to learning if you ask me.

[Kubikus]

OK lets put it this way.

 

You want to do cool stuff. Well, you're gonna need unity.

There is a script to make the bundle, its provided for you, you dont need to learn that part.

 

So what cool stuff do you want to do? plants?

 

Great. Go buy a Speedtree subscription for a month, but then youre gonna have to learn how to use the software.

Then you're going to need the leave textures, and wood textures. OK, get Gimp, or pay for PS.

Theres free CC textures you can find around the net to use.

 

Too much?

 

Wanna do weapons?

You got blender? Its free, but you're gonna have to learn to use it.

No? You can always buy a model then, it comes with textures usually.

 

But, you're probably still going to want to learn blender to fix or make it actually work.

Then, you're gonna want to learn to animate it.

Dont forget sounds!

too much?

 

What about vehicles, you could do those right?

Still need blender, need to learn to rig them then.

 

No?

 

I dont know, it looks like it all comes back to learning if you ask me.

Oh sure, as I already said, if things are technically impossible to be simple xml-tweaks, then it's obviously reasonable that you gotta learn things. None of your exmaples, btw, is anything I am interested in. But I am highly interested, for example, in increase backward sprinting speed. But it's not accessible. It's inside an asset file or something. I learned how to mod it in A16, UABE, something, tried it in A17, but UABE does not seem to work for that thing or I need to learn something new or... whatnot.

 

So my argument or viewpoint is: Make that number part of the XML. LEt me just change a number in the XML. Make it easy. Don't make me learn things, download additional software, wait for third party software to be updated. And so on. Same with biomes and the skill system, and things like that. That could be simple xml-tweaks, if the devs made it so.

 

And that, my dearest friend, is all that I'm saying. Just a perfectly reasonable opinion, that everybody can only agree with. That already, if you didn't see it, considered that now is not the time for the dev team to implement these things, because they have other priorities. Yet, the attitude that everything can just be as complicated as it is, is disagreeable. Because it reduces the number of people, aka the number of creative talents who can create awesome mods.

 

k thx bye

[DUST2DEATH]

Things are what they are, however complicated they are.

 

Not everyone was meant to do everything.

[Kubikus]

Things are what they are, however complicated they are.

 

Not everyone was meant to do everything.

Thankfully, that ideology was pretty much disestablished at the end of the dark ages. But we both know you just don't have it in you to agree with me, so... I'm calling it a day.

[DUST2DEATH]

What? No it wasnt.

 

You might have a camera, doesnt mean you can take a good photo. Nobody is magically amazing at everything.

[Kubikus]

What? No it wasnt.

 

You might have a camera, doesnt mean you can take a good photo. Nobody is magically amazing at everything.

Ok: Now it is complicated, possibly impossible, to tweak backward sprinting speed, because it is in a unaccessible file. Or I don't know how to access it. It's not in an xml-file.

 

But it could. It's the devs' decision. So your ... "argument" that things are complicated as they are, like it was a cosmic law that can't be changed, is false. It is the devs' decision. They can change it. I advocate for them to change it. And not say "it is what it is, if you wanna mod it, spend another couple of hours to learn how to use the tools (or create them in the first place)".

 

Devs should do all they can to make modding as simple as possible. You already agreed with that. So why "it is what it is, not everyone can be able to do it" and not "yeah, backward sprinting and what ever is possible, should go into xmls"? Sounds like you try to counter my reasoning.

[DUST2DEATH]

 

Devs should do all they can to make modding as simple as possible. You already agreed with that.

 

Yep.

So why "it is what it is, not everyone can be able to do it" and not "yeah, backward sprinting and what ever is possible, should go into xmls"? Sounds like you try to counter my reasoning.

 

Refer to original response of

 

"The devs are going to do what the devs are going to do".

 

Such is life. It is what it is. If they do it great. If they dont, you got learning to do. In the end we get what we get.

 

See, I dont need to counter your reasoning, because no amount of whinging, polling, protesting, posting, is going to make the devs do anything. They are going to do what they want to do and if we dont like it, mod it.

 

You need to accept that, and then, do what you need to do to do what it is you want to do.

 

If the tools dont exist, like UABE not working with the block and terrain bundles, there isnt much we can do, accept it.

 

---->It is what it is.<----

[pipedream]

Jesus, I just got brain and eye cancer reading all of this..Lol

[Kubikus]

Yep.

See. So why the argumentum ad nauseum? What are you trying to achieve?

 

Refer to original response of

 

"The devs are going to do what the devs are going to do".

 

Such is life. It is what it is. If they do it great. If they dont, you got learning to do. In the end we get what we get.

 

See, I dont need to counter your reasoning, because no amount of whinging, polling, protesting, posting, is going to make the devs do anything. They are going to do what they want to do and if we dont like it, mod it.

 

You need to accept that, and then, do what you need to do to do what it is you want to do.

 

If the tools dont exist, like UABE not working with the block and terrain bundles, there isnt much we can do, accept it.

 

---->It is what it is.<----

If you don't need to counter my reasoning, then what do you want?

 

And I disagree that customer feedback is pointless and will have no influence on the company. Companies are always highly interested in what customers think. Besides that one can just state one's opinion without expecting that it will change the world.

[xyth]

I don't disagree that the more of the gameplay settings that are exposed via xml the better. Labor, time and quality constraints are what TFP (or any business in a different context) considers when making the decision to expose any particular code section to xml changes.

 

Exposing the code base via xml will require:

 

1. More code to write, test and debug = that is: hire more staff, accept more defects, or take longer to release updates

 

2. More variability to how individual features behave that will cause unexpected interactions and calls for support and changes. It's not fair but users will say since the feature is exposed in xml then TFP should support all ways that xml can be used to change the game.

 

Probably more, but these 2 reasons alone are probably why TFP is choosy about what gets exposed in xml. They gave us much more xml functionality in A17. I hope the user base applauds them for this while waiting for more when constraints allow.

[JaxTeller718]

[gwhit]

I have a question, has TFP said they would not ever expose the setting for sprint in a xml file? Because if the whole point of thread is arguing that they should and never said that I not sure what trying to prove? Code changes are not as simple as just changing a file when working on a collaborated product. I find it highly unlikely that TFP is holding anything back from being changed via xml because of them wanting to keep modders special.

 

Any way there are people that don't even understand xml and they could come in and use the OP argument vs making it easier for them to mod because XML confuses them at what point do TFP have to go to accommodate people that are lacking knowledge of some aspect of coding?

[gkuba]

Bottom line be happy TFP support modding at all. Take what they give you and use it or as others have said learn how to use the more advanced ways of getting the info you need. If that doesn't work for you then maybe instead of complaining about it let it go.

 

End of story!

[Tin]

I don't disagree that the more of the gameplay settings that are exposed via xml the better. Labor, time and quality constraints are what TFP (or any business in a different context) considers when making the decision to expose any particular code section to xml changes.

 

Exposing the code base via xml will require:

 

1. More code to write, test and debug = that is: hire more staff, accept more defects, or take longer to release updates

 

2. More variability to how individual features behave that will cause unexpected interactions and calls for support and changes. It's not fair but users will say since the feature is exposed in xml then TFP should support all ways that xml can be used to change the game.

 

Probably more, but these 2 reasons alone are probably why TFP is choosy about what gets exposed in xml. They gave us much more xml functionality in A17. I hope the user base applauds them for this while waiting for more when constraints allow.

 

And this is what happened^^

[JaxTeller718]

Ill throw my 2 cents in because.... well Im me.

 

I certainly do appreciate that these things are becoming available to us. I just learned Mecanim last night after being an old codger grumpster saying i didn't want to and holy ♥♥♥♥ its amazing and easy. Way easier than Legacy that Im kicking myself for not learning sooner.

 

But that's where my issue lies. There is a lot of knowledge out there, and a lot of changes. People are going to need to learn, and simply saying that they can figure it out if they tried is all well and good, but I think there are 2 people in this community that need to be looked at as prime examples of what the knowledge holders should be.

 

Sphereii and Xyth. Both take extraordinary amounts of time out to make clear and concise tutorials for people who do not have the time to chase down people outside of forums in the hopes of getting answers later in the day. I credit both of them with teaching me 60 percent of my knowledge in modding, and 90 percent of what I know about dlls and Unity.

 

If you have the knowledge, and you know how these things work put them down for others to learn. It's not a competition in who knows what, or it shouldn't be at least. These changes were made for us the modders. Not for certain people so it benefits everyone to have these things in writing. Clearly and concisely. Maybe then people won't be as hesitant or reluctant to go in and learn some of it. And the community would be better off for it. More creations, actual information without opinions etc.

 

It also saves people a lot of time focusing on individuals and helping. People get busy and I know I bug sphereii enough in private over things. His and xyths tutorial for Mecanim were instrumental in getting me off my ass and learning. The xpath tutorials are wonderful. Maybe Kub would be less grumpy if he had a RWG tutorial he could refer to?

 

Or maybe he would still be grumpy, I don't know. It's not worth fighting over though. Imagine how many people are reading this thread and being put off of bothering to mod. This thread is not beneficial for anyone and i agree with Gup it should be closed. It's only going to cause more round robin arguments.

[Kubikus]

I have a question, has TFP said they would not ever expose the setting for sprint in a xml file?

 

Not that I know of. But they also did not expose it, though there were a lot of comments of people unhappy with the change. Everywhere, on the local forums, on Steam, on Youtube. It was quite unpopular among many. I don't know any of the technicalities, how hard it is to make something accessible, but I'm pretty sure that if the devs were determined enough, they could've put setting in the xml files.

 

It's just an example, though.

 

Because if the whole point of thread is arguing that they should and never said that I not sure what trying to prove?

 

I was basically just saying what everybody agrees with, that modding should be very easy and not the privilege of a few nerds. That triggered a few nerds, I guess.

 

Code changes are not as simple as just changing a file when working on a collaborated product. I find it highly unlikely that TFP is holding anything back from being changed via xml because of them wanting to keep modders special.

 

I haven't really heard any official statements about any of that, maybe some were made, but all I know are vague comments about "support" or something. Steam workshop. Whatever that even means.

 

There is of course a difference between actively holding something back on purpose and simply not caring to bring something forward. And here we have a good reason to ask for things to be brought forward: So they know we want them. And not have this attitude:

 

Bottom line be happy TFP support modding at all. Take what they give you and use it or as others have said learn how to use the more advanced ways of getting the info you need. If that doesn't work for you then maybe instead of complaining about it let it go.

 

End of story!

 

If everybody always just says "yeah I can do that with some advanced method" (and those who want to be able to do it without such a method are declared leeches and lazy and whatnot), it might occur to the devs that it's not really necessary to make modding more convenient. But that as well is just a thought and not an assumption.

 

Any way there are people that don't even understand xml and they could come in and use the OP argument vs making it easier for them to mod because XML confuses them at what point do TFP have to go to accommodate people that are lacking knowledge of some aspect of coding?

 

They obviously don't have to do anything, they could end all development today and noone had any claim to anything. There is no obligation, I'm just saying what I'm thinking would be great. And since you bring it up, I have more thoughts to share: If I was in charge, I would hire a guy or order one I already hired - sooner or later - to include a modding menu to the game. Where you can tweak things without ever opening an editor or anything. Where you can tweak a block or an item, where you can, for example, change the stack size or the damage or the lootcointainer it can be found in. Where you can just copy a block and give it a new texture-combination, new attributes. Where you can create your own zombies from scratch. Or design your custom biome, or tweak the terrain generator. Just with buttons, drop-downs and sliders. Wouldn't that be great? That would certainly be great.

 

Cuz once again: A person who is a professional programmer or has enough time to spend dozens of hours learning stuff is not necessarily a good modder. A good mod (or complete game) can purely rise from good ideas. For example when a creative mind tells a tech wizard what do code. Who made the game, the creative mind or the coder? It's maybe too philosophical for the location, but I say the creative mind. The coder is replacable, like a tool. And a lack of creativity cannot be compensated by technology. There won't ever be a slider for good ideas. A lack of knowledge can be compensated by technology.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Oh for frack sake which moderator thought it would be a good idea to move this stupid conversation to the one pure section of the entire forum?

 

... This is exactly why we need moderators that understand the modding community.

And with "modding community" you mean you and people who agree with you..? What are the other modders then? Not modders, as you have implied about me a couple of times..?

 

Close this thread so it can die buried under pages and not muddy the rest of the thread, which is actually productive and useful.

Hey, I do agree that this thread is mostly unnecessary. It's so self-explanatory that everything I say is simply true. Why it was dragged out, well, we know the answer, hm? *wink wink*