A17's good and bads

[Kosmic Kerman]

@Kosmic: Yeah, I had one runthrough that worked out that way, And it really does have a lot to do with how you spend your points, but it seems like, in order to progress at all, you have to spend your points in exactly the same way that everyone else does. We went from having a little wiggle room with how you spend your points, to, either spend them this way by level 5, or you shall not pass. lol. I know most of it has a lot to do with needing to change up the way I play, which is why I didn't fly off the handle, complaining profusely on day one of it's release. I've tried and tried again, but it seems like the food is the biggest hindrance overall, even if it is just a fuzz unbalanced. (It may not be horribly unbalanced, and at least it's not like breaking your leg every 3 seconds by jumping off of a bush. lol as A12 or 13 was.) I dunno. I just look at what I see. I don't expect everything to change, but the information can't be known if the information isn't made known. If that makes sense. You can't know what you don't know that you don't know. lol. They're focused on finishing the build, not playing it. That's why the Experimental builds are a thing. We test it and provide the feedback. =/ I'm not claiming that they don't care or anything, they just likely don't have time to play and test while they're focused on building.

I feel like there are some choices early on but there’s only so much you can do when you are just trying to survive. I think master chef is probably a must since food is so critical. After that I’d focus on either melee or ranged rather than spreading points. In my first play through I spread my points out between various skills. On my next playthrough I’ll probably take master chef, the food reducing perk, and then focus on melee. I think Cardio may not be the best choice early on since it only effects stamina regen while running.

 

My concerns are more about mid to end game. I’m worried that bones may be too scarce even with the added gore blocks, mining is currently underpowered (max-perked and -modded pick axe can only do 130ish damage), and zombies seem a little strong for mid to late game base building. I would also like to see some stamina regening beverages or food added to reduce the mining grind.

[Roland]

I'm sure Roland or Hawkeye will be in here any minute now to moderate and/or remove their posts. Any minute now.

 

Arrived late but would've been here sooner if instead of being passive aggressive and posting a sly commentary on how biased you believe we are you had actually been helpful by reporting the posts. Of course, actually reporting it would've worked against your goal. Much better in your mind to post as you did and then watch as time went by so you could later do an "I told you so..."

[Roland]

 

tldr: Perception is a bad fit for determining whether a headshot kills a zombie. Hitting the zombie in the head should determine if it was a headshot and kills the zombie.

 

tldr: Food scarcity, stamina drain linked to hunger, food poisoning, and needing to spend a perk point and find a pot to get good food recipes all combine to create a death by hunger loop that is easy to fall into and very difficult and unfun to escape. This aspect of the game needs balancing.

 

tldr: The forge takes too long to obtain and perk points shouldn't have to be spent on simple things that anyone should know how to do like cooking.

 

tldr: The new 1-6 tier system is not as satisfying as the old 0 - 600 tier system and most of the joy of finding higher tier gear is gone now.

 

tldr: The death penalty timer is set too long. It needs to be shortened.

 

Hope I summed those up nicely for those who can't read the OP.

 

I somewhat agree with your point about perception but it has never really bothered me. I think that allowing one hit kills from Day 1 because you did hit the head would make it way too easy. Maybe they could make it so that the arrows that break do no damage because they hit the skull and shattered but the ones that stick actually do the damage and then the perception perk would then reduce the percentage of arrows that shatter simulating that as you get more perceptive you are able to hit the eye perfectly and your imperfect arrows aren't just shattering against the skulls. Myself, I don't need all that. I can just make the connection in my imagination and realize it is an abstract representation of what is going on.

 

Food scarcity was a problem when I was following my A16 routines. Now that I spend the first few days doing food gathering as the primary activity I have no problems. I think death loops of any kind are something the developers should be wary of however.

 

Forge doesn't bug me really. We used to get it randomly and then it was at day 1 or 2 and now it is day 5-10. But I'm also for removing or reducing level gates in general so no real argument. With level gates gone I probably would still take 5 -10 days to get my own forge anyway. As for the perks I actually do like that we are limited to basic stuff unless we spend a point. Spending a point to remove encumbrance means I can't spend it elsewhere. Spend a point for cooking and that is one I can't spend on melee enhancements. I like the choices and can forgive the sacrifice of reality just as with elsewhere.

 

Agreed that the new 1 - 6 system is far less interesting. But it will eventually surpass the old. They haven't even gotten started yet on everything they want to do with this system and you will definitely be excited again to get a better tier weapon. It's still WIP.

 

Death timer doesn't bother me but playing as a vulnerable weak character is what makes the game scary so I definitely don't sit in my base or go AFK for the hour it takes for the timer to run down. I get out there and do stuff.

 

You'll be glad to know that all of your issues are on TFP's radar. We will just have to wait to see what they decide to do. Despite how much people dislike certain aspects there is actually very few things that are universally hated.

[Rockspider]

OP good points raised

 

WOW Do I see a new more understanding side to Roland

[Inemity]

Sweet jesus.

[Roland]

OP good points raised

 

WOW Do I see a new more understanding side to Roland

 

This is me when I read constructively written negative feedback without all the drama accusations and insulting language. It’s not the first thread. There have been a few others that kept their comments to gameplay feedback and I expressed gratitude and sent links to the devs so they would see those threads. I give far less leeway to people who CHOSE to play an OPT-IN version of the game that is advertised as incomplete. There is no reason for anger and ranting and vitriol. When stable comes out and the masses get it as an auto update and many were clueless about it happening and they come on to complain I am more understanding and try to help them figure out how to wipe their old files and get going on the new build. Totally different. Nobody here accidently downloaded A17e so the drama was really unnecessary.

 

Those who can’t tell the difference between constructive criticism and unconstructive criticism probably get confused by my responses.

 

But that’s fun too.

[ShadowMoses1324]

Thank you Roland, for the response. I do appreciate it. I agree on most of your points as well, and I'm glad to hear that the things I pointed out are on the development radar. I think that the penalty, while it doesn't make it impossible to play, (Don't get me wrong, it is a hindrance but not a game breaker,) feels like a 10-20 min Debuff would be more than adequate. Is there anything in the pipes about a setting or a line in XML that might be in the full release for this?

 

Food, meh, it can be worked around, but it has to be done perfectly, otherwise, it's just not possible to break the cycle you end up in. For example, my latest random-gen map that I played this morning. Ran around for about 2 hours, collecting food, yet could never get above 75%, but the food and water isn't exactly my problem, (I suppose I may not have really touched on that.) It's the drastic rate at wich you lose it, and the stamina impact being somewhere around 75%, makes you nearly incapable of digging yourself out. You get one swing off and have to rest, you can punch 3 plants, then rest, hit a tree 3 times, rest. it's a cycle that's nearly impossible to break, unless you risk a POI to find a pot, because you certainly can't make one. I know that points can be invested towards combating this, but it just seems a bit unfair to restrict a player to Needing to invest skill points in a particular perk so early in the game. It feels kind of "Hand of God"-like.

 

When it comes to the meat prep and other foods. I mean, I get that cooking takes some skill, but, realistically, anyone can boil anything. It's pretty intuitive. However, boiled meat is behind a skill point, which, to me, again, in my opinion, makes very little sense. It kind of dwindles down to 6 in one hand, half dozen in the other. You can make the charred meat, spend 5 raw meat to do so, or you can spend 2 and a jar of water.. Even if the Boiled meat gave the same amount of hunger, it'd make sense, because you're putting that little extra effort in. But lets be real here, if you don't know how to boil a potato, corn or a piece of meat, then... sorry about your luck..lol.

 

I agree with the one shot arrow comment as well, and I'll tell you, one shotting a zombie would be boring and/or too easy, but I mean, 4-5 arrows, all in the head, is a tad much. Especially with someone who's gotten to the point, through playtime and practice alone, to where they can consistently hit zombie heads with the bow, even 70% of the time. 2, maybe 3 shots make sense, especially when you think about penetrating a skull with an arrow made of a stick, sharpened rock and feathers, (Probably bound by some form of twine by the look of it.) it makes sense that some would be largely ineffective. So, yeah, I completely agree with your arrow suggestion, as at least there's a reason as to why there's a zombie still shambling towards you with 30 arrows in his dome. XD

 

I don't know. I think the most frustrating thing overall is the food. While I may not have the answers, or many suggestions, It just feels like there's something completely off with it. 3 out of 4 attempts, locking me into a death loop that I cannot escape, is a bit worrying. That's my biggest worry at this point. I'm not trying to whine or anything, I know it's early, and is a huge build. Anyone would be mad if they thought that there would be no issues. Look to Alpha 12, 15, and early 16 in recent memories. But I'll say, this, may well be the build that has the most "Threatening," issues, which is why I shut up until I've played a bit. lol. Some of my initial gripes were just caused by ignorance and inexperience with the new system, and in the spirit of fairness, I rode it out, and came to love it. (Stealth system for instance.)

 

Anywho, Thank you so much for your helpful and classy responses guys, (those who provided them.) I'm glad to see a forum that is actually monitored actively.

[Tantalus11]

Hope I summed those up nicely for those who can't read the OP.

 

Food scarcity was a problem when I was following my A16 routines. Now that I spend the first few days doing food gathering as the primary activity I have no problems. I think death loops of any kind are something the developers should be wary of however.

 

[...]

 

Death timer doesn't bother me but playing as a vulnerable weak character is what makes the game scary so I definitely don't sit in my base or go

AFK for the hour it takes for the timer to run down. I get out there and do stuff.

 

You'll be glad to know that all of your issues are on TFP's radar. We will just have to wait to see what they decide to do. Despite how much people dislike certain aspects there is actually very few things that are universally hated.

 

Greetings.

 

I played 16.4 for about 200hrs, and i must agree, if you stick with 16.4 habits, you *will* fall into starving circle. But even after adapting to the A17 changes, it is quite easy to fall in early game, it only needs a bit of bad luck.

 

I've been thinking of what could be changed to reduce this risk (especially for new players) and came to two ideas:

1. remove the requirement of a cooking pot for boiled egg, so no matter how lucky you are at looting, you have a chance to keep your stamina at a useful level.

2. add a second can of food to starting equipment (maybe depneding on difficulty setting), so you have some extra time after game starts to get familiar with your world and the needs of your char.

 

Regards

Tantalus

[LordoftheMoo]

Greetings.

 

I played 16.4 for about 200hrs, and i must agree, if you stick with 16.4 habits, you *will* fall into starving circle. But even after adapting to the A17 changes, it is quite easy to fall in early game, it only needs a bit of bad luck.

 

I've been thinking of what could be changed to reduce this risk (especially for new players) and came to two ideas:

1. remove the requirement of a cooking pot for boiled egg, so no matter how lucky you are at looting, you have a chance to keep your stamina at a useful level.

2. add a second can of food to starting equipment (maybe depneding on difficulty setting), so you have some extra time after game starts to get familiar with your world and the needs of your char.

 

I think one of the things to draw on from a16 play is "where do some things show up more often than others?". I for one when I came in knew I needed a pot. I never make one at a forge - I always go find one (in a16). So the first thing I did once I got the basics down and I got settled was determine where the nearby "rural" houses were. They VERY often have cooking pots just sitting around, some of the houses it's a standard item sitting up on a cabinet. That's where I got my first one; I had it early on day 2, and thereafter food isn't an issue. The new locked smithing in this one case just made me have to adapt and think of alternative ways in a16 that I could beat this, and I was off and running.

[Hyperbolt]

I also agree on many of your points, agreeing on the positive things too!

 

Regarding the food and stamina system: Im beginning to adapt to it, but maybe they could make it so that the stamina bar dont start to diminish as soon as your food is not 100%. If stamina began falling at 90%, perhaps that would feel a bit nicer!

 

And reagrding the item-grading... yeees, i know exactly how you feel! I loved the feeling when you could combine the tools in the workbench and see the numbers ticking up! And it was great to find, or buy a tool with a slighty higher quality!

 

Yepp, a few of the new skills should be thing that is available from the start... basic cooking, ability to craft seeds and forge-crafting are some things that felt more annoying than challenging not having from the start.

 

I also wish they would bring back progression skills, because right now you dont have to do anything specific to level up certain perks.

Now it could be like: Ive killed a ton of zombies, now i can learn to craft bicycles!

... that dont make much sense to me, in a matter of realism.

I rather wish for: If you do something alot, you get better at that thing!

I still like new perks, i just prefer to have them gated by progression-skills, not levels.

A bit like A16 or 15 had its system.

 

Also, mining has been severely nerfed in this patch, i noticed that when i started to build an underground base. Tools are much too weak with normal swings, and slighty too weak with power attacks. And iron tools mine faster than steel tools! I hope the balance this before stable release!

 

Sorry for the text wall, heheh!

[Kosmic Kerman]

@Shadow, the death debuff is already tweakable in the xml. It’s in the buffs.xml file. I don’t have the game files handy or I’d tell you buff’s name. I’m pretty sure if you search for death you will find it. There’s also a modlet in the mods section which reduces the penalty.

[Tantalus11]

@Shadow, the death debuff is already tweakable in the xml. It’s in the buffs.xml file. I don’t have the game files handy or I’d tell you buff’s name. I’m pretty sure if you search for death you will find it. There’s also a modlet in the mods section which reduces the penalty.

 

IIRC it is named "NearDeathTrauma", the default is 3600s. I've tweaked it to 1800s, which still provides enough motivation to try to stay alive while not punishing beyond boarders if the happy dog crew pops up right behind you once again...

 

Regards

Tantalus

[Halz]

First of all:

I really love A17 espec. the skill system including the slow progression. There are only some minor bugs or balance issues I will complain.

 

- Game performance even with good hardware is really bad

- The second swing after placing an object sucks

- The swing delay of the stone axe sucks

- the damage of all weapons are unbalanced imo. Almost all weapons didn't deal enough damage. And where is my spiked club?

- The Bicycle takes too much damage driving over small stones and wood. And it should not be allowed to ram zombies or animals with it. U should fell off ramming zombies

- You can't aim properly with a flaming arrow

- zombie block damage is too much

- pathfinding: zombies shouldn't be aware of traps. Traps should count as a free block

- I still miss hunger and thirst level in my hud although stamina is connected with hunger

- iron nodes should look like in a16

- the earth driller sucks too much gas

 

I guess there will be more, but these are the most annoying probs/bugs in my opinion.

 

Keep on the good work TFP!

[ShadowMoses1324]

After playing the update that came out yesterday, and attempting some of the tips I was given here, I haven't died yet. I'll update my post in a little bit here, once I feel like I've checked into enough to form a valid opinion. Thanks all for the feedback!!

[MISG]

Good post Shadowmoses.

 

I would agree with you on pretty much everything you said. I miss the 600 point skills I find the current system of item level boring. I also miss leveling up my skill in crafting. It was a great deal of fun and it was rewarding now it's just about killing zombies as it's the only way to level.

[PoppaTot]

I think one of the things to draw on from a16 play is "where do some things show up more often than others?". I for one when I came in knew I needed a pot. I never make one at a forge - I always go find one (in a16). So the first thing I did once I got the basics down and I got settled was determine where the nearby "rural" houses were. They VERY often have cooking pots just sitting around, some of the houses it's a standard item sitting up on a cabinet. That's where I got my first one; I had it early on day 2, and thereafter food isn't an issue. The new locked smithing in this one case just made me have to adapt and think of alternative ways in a16 that I could beat this, and I was off and running.

 

I may not be the biggest fan of A17 from a builder playstyle gamer, but I have 4 saves on A17 and have had no issue, literally zero issue, finding a cooking pot early day 1. First thing I have done in every playthrough is search the small cabins surrounding the towns. Almost every single one that has the small loft will have a pot tucked away in the back right corner of the loft.

[IgnyteZero]

Okay. I'm a long-time player of 7 days, I'm not going to talk about how many hours I have in the game, because I'm not that guy. But what I will say is that I've loved this game since the 5th release, and this is my top played game on my steam account. AKA, I'm not a noob. I've given many times to TFP, in the form of having bought 8+ copies of the game, and I was a huge supporter, and would still love to be, but I'll be honest. I've put quite a decent amount of time into the 17 experimenteal and I'm incredibly disappointed, like, to the point where I am near about to uninstall, and forget this game, while never recommending it again.

 

You are not alone. Me and many of our friends have been playing since alpha 8 and 9. And Alpha 17 so far has dissappointed us immensily so far. At the point hat we feel that if the game doesn't change direction this might be the last incarnation of it we play. Ever.

 

To me personally it's not so much all the extreme imbalances as it is now that is the huge issue, but rather the direction they seem to want to take it; to make gameplay more linear and streamlined towards actionrpg more than sandbox survival. It speaks volumes as of TFP no longer knowing what their playerbase wants or expects from them.

[Captivating]

 

I don't know. I think the most frustrating thing overall is the food. While I may not have the answers, or many suggestions, It just feels like there's something completely off with it. 3 out of 4 attempts, locking me into a death loop that I cannot escape, is a bit worrying.

 

I have a newfound appreciation for snowberries and baked potatoes at low levels. I'm still experimenting, trying to find the most bang for my buck when it comes to the cost vs stamina gain. I've always liked bacon and eggs but I tend to struggle with eggs in later levels (at least in a16) when I've already raided most of the nests so I like the steak and potato variation. At least I can grow my own potatoes, I haven't yet figured out how to catch a chicken for a nice supply of eggs yet lol

[grieferbastard]

I admit I'm not sure where the food/water concerns come from. Make yucca juice or red tea, you should always have more water than you need. My hydration has rarely been under 85%. For food, make a bone shiv. Go kill and skin animals. Loot every bird's nest you see.

 

I haven't been struggling for food since day 2. I'm not sure what people are doing differently to not have food and water locked down by day 2.

[Roland]

I took the perk that reduces hunger rate and even with tier one I noticed a difference. If loss of max stamina is happening too fast for you try that perk. The means to making the bar decrease slower is available to us.

 

Maybe an additional basic recipe for boiled egg could be a can of water + egg and it consumes the can of water.

[PoppaTot]

I admit I'm not sure where the food/water concerns come from. Make yucca juice or red tea, you should always have more water than you need. My hydration has rarely been under 85%. For food, make a bone shiv. Go kill and skin animals. Loot every bird's nest you see.

 

I haven't been struggling for food since day 2. I'm not sure what people are doing differently to not have food and water locked down by day 2.

 

There are sometimes when I go a day or so without meat, but generally have plenty of food to sustain... My SP playthrough I have like 1000+ meat because I kept finding the stupid balcony pigs lmao. There were 5 of them on the Paper Mill balcony top at the same time, then 3 on a smaller POI, and 3 more on the balcony top of the shotgun factory. It was really strange to have that happen in like 2 in-game days. Have seen them at all in B199 though.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I took the perk that reduces hunger rate and even with tier one I noticed a difference. If loss of max stamina is happening too fast for you try that perk. The means to making the bar decrease slower is available to us.

 

I haven't used this perk and I'm over level 80, my buddy says it's a great perk to have though.

[Manly]

I don't comment here much but have been playing for a while. Personally, I like most of the changes and one of the ones I don't like (death penalty) has been nerfed so that is good.

 

As far as food and progression goes I was pretty worried about the game state after reading the forums and being led to believe by all the "I am quitting the game because of this unmitigated disaster!" posts it was ruined. After getting many hours into the game I realized that it is quite different...and YES...if i play like I used to play I will be dead quick (which I learned to my chagrin).

 

However - TFP dramatically improved a game that I already have spent enormous amounts of time playing. I love how the early game is being stretched. It has led to scrambles that I haven't experienced in a long time. The upside is there is an end in sight...it just isnt in 5 days after I get a concrete mixer and iron mined. Then you are impregnable.

 

The other thing I really like is that this is A17 and that means there will be at least one more iteration to this game that I bought for a few bucks 4 years ago and ended up with a priceless addition to my game collection (yes...I have also gifted copies to my buds who play the heck out of the game too). A18 (or will it be B1?) will likely be another new game that maybe takes advantage of the new engine more...or new cool perks or POI's! I can't wait!

[PoppaTot]

I don't comment here much but have been playing for a while. Personally, I like most of the changes and one of the ones I don't like (death penalty) has been nerfed so that is good.

 

As far as food and progression goes I was pretty worried about the game state after reading the forums and being led to believe by all the "I am quitting the game because of this unmitigated disaster!" posts it was ruined. After getting many hours into the game I realized that it is quite different...and YES...if i play like I used to play I will be dead quick (which I learned to my chagrin).

 

However - TFP dramatically improved a game that I already have spent enormous amounts of time playing. I love how the early game is being stretched. It has led to scrambles that I haven't experienced in a long time. The upside is there is an end in sight...it just isnt in 5 days after I get a concrete mixer and iron mined. Then you are impregnable.

 

The other thing I really like is that this is A17 and that means there will be at least one more iteration to this game that I bought for a few bucks 4 years ago and ended up with a priceless addition to my game collection (yes...I have also gifted copies to my buds who play the heck out of the game too). A18 (or will it be B1?) will likely be another new game that maybe takes advantage of the new engine more...or new cool perks or POI's! I can't wait!

 

Honest question, no ill intention to it. What is your play-style? Do you usually play as a builder, a warrior, anything else?

 

I usually played as a builder primarily and loved going out and looting secondary. I enjoy A17, just wish it would balance out more for people that enjoy the building aspect. I feel limited in building options to "exploit the AI" builds.

[Manly]

Great question!! I usually play as a builder! My buddy was the guy who loved to run around and loot to high heaven. He always had an auger and all the great stuff from looting and I had the base that was safe for the first 2 weeks.

 

Then he would take off and start his own place leaving me with the dudes who only played here and there - ate all my food - ran around and died and then would log off for a few days. Gradually I would make my way though...and it was fun.

 

NOW - I have to run around and kill stuff and loot and do quests (which I did usually AFTER I had a decent base that would hold off the horde) and level up. On horde night me and pals (including my adventuring friend) will get on top of a building and hope for the best. After 2 weeks of this we are all able to start going nuts gathering resources and we have passed the forge and mixer hurdle and can start on a fortified "F U ZEDS!!" kill building and get some pay back for all the death penalties they gave me.

 

long story short I am a builder but I got pretty experienced at the game and even with difficulty cranked up would have a safe place in a very short period of time where it was too easy to survive. The too easy part is all relative...I get that...but to me this alpha is very entertaining and challenging.

[Captivating]

My opinion won't mean much to most people but when pestering my friend finally paid off, I just kept preaching over and over "you're not gonna like it, but keep an open mind" and man do I really need to practice what I preach. This build was a serious shock to my system. All of my main concerns are being addressed though, so I'm patiently waiting.

 

My biggest issue though is just the performance, which they can't help with as it's on my end.

 

I am a more casual player but my downfall is that I get tunnel vision. I'll be so focused on something that I don't notice other things and if/when I get interrupted, it's like I completely forgot what I was doing. Again, not TFP's problem but mine. I'm not the type of person that's going to find errors in the xml files or recognize that a feature isn't working as intended but I hope to offer decent suggestions or at the very least find those nasty typos lmao!