I Genuinely love this game but I have a couple problems with 1.0

[Skaarphy]

On 7/31/2024 at 6:03 PM, meganoth said:

 

What is so absurd about limiting glue production that you drop a pint of sarcasm on it? Thats what game developers do, limit stuff so players have something to do to craft their stuff. Players who don't want this can play walking simulators and cookie clickers 😉 (speaking generally, I don't mean you. All survival games have repetitive recurring tasks one has to do to survive, some more, some less.)

 

I think it is also vital in the later game that the player doesn't get glue for free. He either has to deploy a massive amount of dew collectors and collect from them once in a while, or drop down only a few collectors and dilligently collect from them to craft all the glue needed for higher recipes.

 

What I find so absurd it is that it becomes a non-issue very early in the game. For my current playthrough that happened on day 3 or 4, where I knew that I'd have to go out of my way to make water become a problem again. Currently, on day 8, I have about 30 drinking water, 15 recipe drinks, 20 murky water, and about 15 glue and 25 duct tape. All with one upgraded dew collector and routinely checking toilets, coffee machines, etc. I didn't even go out of my way with questing and looting. Just started tier 3 jobs.  

 

You cannot for the life of me tell me that this is a good system. 

 

As for late game, glue is free, isn't it? You have so much resources that expending some of that on more dew collectors barely puts a dent in it. And then it's just a matter of spending a few seconds every once in a while to reap your rewards. And, the way I see it, that's how it should be. You cannot struggle forever to get that @%$#ing glue. It's not "How to Get Glue - The Game". 

Edited August 2 by Skaarphy (see edit history)

[omegaflames]

6 hours ago, Riamus said:

Besides that politics are most likely not allowed on the forum, disparaging someone for their opinions is also not a good thing anywhere. 

 

In any case, you apparently aren't paying much attention to his posts as he does criticize various things in the game.  Although he and I don't agree on certain things about the way the game is going, we both like the overall direction of the game and so we will have mostly positive posts about the game.  That doesn't in any way invalidate our opinions or give anyone the right to make such comments.  I also criticize things about the game.  But most my posts are positive because I like the game.  Nothing wrong with that.

I'm sorry what were those valid reasons again? Oh you don't know them either? That's what I thought. You claim I am "disparaging" someone for their opinion but Meganoth isn't giving an opinion. He's just telling people everything is alright without any actual regard for the issues people are posting about. Furthermore if I'm "disparaging" Meganoth for his opinion then you are also "disparaging" me for mine. I have just as much right to my opinion, as do you, as does Meganoth, and as does everyone else. That you don't like my opinion does not mean I can't voice it just like everyone else.

[Riamus]

5 minutes ago, omegaflames said:

I'm sorry what were those valid reasons again? Oh you don't know them either? That's what I thought. You claim I am "disparaging" someone for their opinion but Meganoth isn't giving an opinion. He's just telling people everything is alright without any actual regard for the issues people are posting about. Furthermore if I'm "disparaging" Meganoth for his opinion then you are also "disparaging" me for mine. I have just as much right to my opinion, as do you, as does Meganoth, and as does everyone else. That you don't like my opinion does not mean I can't voice it just like everyone else.

There have been a number of responses from devs giving their reasons for a variety of changes.  I'm not about to spend time listing them for you.  They are on the forum if you care to look.  Whether or not you consider them valid doesn't mean TFP doesn't consider them valid.

 

Uh... you do know what an opinion is, I assume?  If he is saying that he thinks that such and such change is good, that is an opinion.  If he says that he likes something the way it is, that is also an opinion.  Now, of course there are times when he is stating facts.  But "saying that everything is all right" is an opinion.  Just because he doesn't agree with the person he responds to doesn't mean he is disregarding what they say.  It means his opinion is different.

 

And your statement about him was phrased as more of a statement of fact than an opinion.  You said "he will always support what the devs say".  That is far more a statement about what you believe to be true (aka a fact) than your opinion.  Maybe you worded it poorly and it was intended as an opinion?  But the disparaging part wasn't about that.  It was your political statement tied to it.

 

And, to use what you said "I have just as much right to my opinion, as do you, as does Meganoth, and as does everyone else."  ... If you believe he has an equal right to his opinions, then why are you making it sound like his opinions don't matter or aren't valid, giving a reasons why they aren't relating to always supporting devs or without regard for what other people say?  If you want to say that you disagree with him,  there's nothing wrong with that.  Posting political stuff and trying to make it look like his opinions aren't worthwhile isn't the same thing.

[meganoth]

14 hours ago, omegaflames said:

Over the last few years I've noticed that Meganoth is like the **** reporter telling you it's a mostly peaceful demonstration no matter how many houses are being burnt to the ground a mere 50 feet away. He will always support whatever the devs put out even if it means he has to lie to your face.

 

Often someone asks here on the forum "Why did TFP do ....". Since I often know the answer to these questions, I explain those reasons. This doesn't mean I fully agree with those reasons or that I would have done the same. But the reasons are logical enough that I can also defend them from arguments that I think are invalid to the point. For example I didn't care for dew collectors needing a trader-only item in A21. But I still could see the reason why they did it and could explain that. And I don't have a problem with getting no water from lakes and I liked water becoming a bit of a problem, so the water changes altogether were still positive for me.

 

This probably lead you to call me a reporter and in that regard you probably are correct (though in my role as moderator of this forum I have to warn you to bring any politics into this). See, I can even see the positive in a disparaging post like yours 😉

 

One thing which I like very much is that the game rules change so much between alphas. For me change is a vital part of keeping the game fresh for me. While a lot of players seem to be averse to change and for example notice immersion problems much more strongly when they are part of a change. This seemed to happen a lot with the water changes. This is another point where I am probably leaning much more to like changes versus critizising them (this obviously isn't an objective criteria but a bias, on both sides)

 

But there is the other point that I actually seem to have a taste in gaming very close to the developers, that is the reason I keep playing this game for such a long time and have read the forum almost every day for the last 6 years! Yes, I support many, not all, decisions the developers make because our tastes seem very much alike. Unless the developers change their tastes this can't be helped, I have no plans changing my tastes 😉

 

6 hours ago, omegaflames said:

I'm sorry what were those valid reasons again? Oh you don't know them either? That's what I thought. You claim I am "disparaging" someone for their opinion but Meganoth isn't giving an opinion. He's just telling people everything is alright without any actual regard for the issues people are posting about. Furthermore if I'm "disparaging" Meganoth for his opinion then you are also "disparaging" me for mine. I have just as much right to my opinion, as do you, as does Meganoth, and as does everyone else. That you don't like my opinion does not mean I can't voice it just like everyone else.

 

In this thread you have been posting your opinion about me exclusively, but isn't that a bit off-topic? Shouldn't you instead post your opinions about the game, which you have all the right to? 

 

 

[Krougal]

15 hours ago, omegaflames said:

Over the last few years I've noticed that Meganoth is like the liberal reporter telling you it's a mostly peaceful demonstration no matter how many houses are being burnt to the ground a mere 50 feet away. He will always support whatever the devs put out even if it means he has to lie to your face.

LOL. That's harsh man, even for me, and I am @%$#ing savage when it comes to insulting people.

A moderator still has to maintain a certain decorum.

I mean if you were a dev, would you want people who regularly bash you and your game moderating your forum?

I think Meganoth and Roland really do a good job of walking the fine line between their duty as moderators and taking part in discussions as players. Nothing against the rest of the mods either, they are just the 2 most visible.

 

ON-TOPIC:

Not being able to gather water from readily available sources is much more immersion breaking than anything, yes, even my kludgy hack that summons a jar out of nowhere when you r-click water. I can hand wave away the container as "not everything has to be strictly represented in the game". I mean I guess it is immersion breaking that I don't have to stop and @%$# like every hour or two, but I am fine without that level of immersion.

 

Water being the basic need that it is, if you want to make it a survival issue, it has to become like a central theme. So either the world all got turned into a blasted wasteland, or even just desert, and then water sources become a dominant issue. Insert your favorite B-grade Max Max clone here. 

 

Can deny it all y'all want, but it is about glue and gating and nothing else. 

 

Once again, I feel the need to mention the helmet mod for purifying water would be end-game loot not something I almost always find on day 1 if it were about drinking water.

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, Skaarphy said:

What I find so absurd it is that it becomes a non-issue very early in the game. For my current playthrough that happened on day 3 or 4, where I knew that I'd have to go out of my way to make water become a problem again. Currently, on day 8, I have about 30 drinking water, 15 recipe drinks, 20 murky water, and about 15 glue and 25 duct tape. All with one upgraded dew collector and routinely checking toilets, coffee machines, etc. I didn't even go out of my way with questing and looting. Just started tier 3 jobs. 

 

Well, you are actually still looting toilets and keeping the water you find. Did you do that in mid- and late-game in A19 or A20? At least we didn't. Which means, at least for my group, that water in loot has more value now, even after day 3 or 4. But it is a solved problem.

 

But it is the 3-4 days you are complaining about. Though for novice players that might be more days, and for co-op games it might be more effort. My co-op group needs about 10-12 collectors (without mods) to be in a good spot and while we don't have actual problems with that, we need to collect a lot of polymers and craft duct tape for that.

 

9 hours ago, Skaarphy said:

As for late game, glue is free, isn't it? You have so much resources that expending some of that on more dew collectors barely puts a dent in it. And then it's just a matter of spending a few seconds every once in a while to reap your rewards. And, the way I see it, that's how it should be. You cannot struggle forever to get that @%$#ing glue. It's not "How to Get Glue - The Game". 

 

Oh sure, but it still is something you have to built and (like a farm for food) reap once in a while. That simply makes water/glue/duct tape you find in loot something you might keep because it may be even less effort than the small grind of going through all the dew collectors. 

 

Also you have to consider that players who have a higher and constant use of duct tape, AGI players relying on explosive arrows, need a lot more water than everyone else. For them water is a valuable resource even into late game. The grind for them has to be acceptably low which means for everyone else the grind is very very low.

 

On 7/31/2024 at 11:24 AM, Skaarphy said:

How about this for an alternative: Water gathered from bodies of water can give you radiation poisoning, either by a build-up or by a percentage chance. You can find - and later craft - anti-radiation chems that will turn that water into murky water. 

Alternatively, drinking it can make you become infected. Again, with some form of remedy that can be found or crafted and removes that possibility.

Or, just make it undrinkable because lethal (eg.: by radiation poisoning, with no remedy), and only usable for making glue and sham sandwiches and the like. Would that really be so problematic? Oh no, I have all the water I need to make glue! The horror!

And even if that is seriously undesired - because not being able to make as much glue as you want in the first few days is just vital for the game - just make bones more scarce, or the recipe more expensive, bone-wise. Which coincidentally would also upgrade the value of super corn?  

 

Lets talk about the alternative you proposed: I would consider a resource to a recipe that is practically unlimited a useless "grind" resource for that recipe. Maybe more realistic, but a game designer would either remove that resource or change it to being limited. And even worse for a central product like duct tape. So I would count that as a slight negative and assume your alternative is WITH the change in the last paragraph included as a minimum for acceptance.

 

Positive is the immersion aspect. It is not realistic, but it works well as "movie grade science". And yes, super corn would be more valuable. If I forgot some other positive aspect please add to this list.

 

One thing that is a bit worse than the current method is that there is no need for the player to balance out his scarce water between food and glue production. For glue production he has rather unlimited amounts of water, the limit is bones. So all his clean water can be put into food producion.

 

Also the only source of water until you find or can craft anti-rad chems would be loot. Which is rather random and a problem for novice and co-op players. I have seen many posts of novice players having problems finding water, and drinking water from a lake is a safety net. Even veteran players, either in co-op games or games with loot percentage turned down have used that safety net. Well, that safety net is not absolutely necessary, one could simply say that bad luck means you die (or probably die as rad poisioning is a much larger danger/penalty than dysentery). Or give the trader clean water to sell at high prices (which would not help novice players in most cases, they won't have many dukes either). So in general I would say the current solution balances different players and game modes a bit better than your solution.

 

Generally yes, your solution is a valid solution. Assuming the developers thought about a similar scheme they probably have applied different values to the advantages and disadvantages of those schemes and came to a different conclusion than you. I could have lived with both solutions. But since I value the immersion effect of being able to get water from a lake to nearly zero I would probably be leaning to the current solution because of the way water is a balancing act between food/water and glue and because dew collectors are another workstation and a more creative approach than your solution. I would really really prefer it if zombies were actually targetting workstations standing around so you had to protect them.

 

 

 

Edited August 2 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Krougal]

38 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Well, you are actually still looting toilets and keeping the water you find. Did you do that in mid- and late-game in A19 or A20? At least we didn't. Which means, at least for my group, that water in loot has more value now, even after day 3 or 4. But it is a solved problem.

 

I still find it mind boggling, especially for a group.

Do you guys not do much crafting? I mean if you aren't crafting much then your glue needs are more modest.

SP I will likely go through at least a thousand glue. A rough guesstimate is probably 100 per piece of gear, considering a QL1, maybe a 3 and then a 6. This is A21, I don't know if there's been any rebalancing. Actually, probably thousands of glue. Then throw consumables like repair kits on top of that.

No, I swear I am not eating it!

[Skaarphy]

13 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Well, you are actually still looting toilets and keeping the water you find. Did you do that in mid- and late-game in A19 or A20? At least we didn't. Which means, at least for my group, that water in loot has more value now, even after day 3 or 4. But it is a solved problem.

 

But it is the 3-4 days you are complaining about. Though for novice players that might be more days, and for co-op games it might be more effort. My co-op group needs about 10-12 collectors (without mods) to be in a good spot and while we don't have actual problems with that, we need to collect a lot of polymers and craft duct tape for that.

 

 

Oh sure, but it still is something you have to built and (like a farm for food) reap once in a while. That simply makes water/glue/duct tape you find in loot something you might keep because it may be even less effort than the small grind of going through all the dew collectors. 

 

Also you have to consider that players who have a higher and constant use of duct tape, AGI players relying on explosive arrows, need a lot more water than everyone else. For them water is a valuable resource even into late game. The grind for them has to be acceptably low which means for everyone else the grind is very very low.

 

 

Lets talk about the alternative you proposed: I would consider a resource to a recipe that is practically unlimited a useless "grind" resource for that recipe. Maybe more realistic, but a game designer would either remove that resource or change it to being limited. And even worse for a central product like duct tape. So I would count that as a slight negative and assume your alternative is WITH the change in the last paragraph included as a minimum for acceptance.

 

Positive is the immersion aspect. It is not realistic, but it works well as "movie grade science". And yes, super corn would be more valuable. If I forgot some other positive aspect please add to this list.

 

One thing that is a bit worse than the current method is that there is no need for the player to balance out his scarce water between food and glue production. For glue production he has rather unlimited amounts of water, the limit is bones. So all his clean water can be put into food producion.

 

Also the only source of water until you find or can craft anti-rad chems would be loot. Which is rather random and a problem for novice and co-op players. I have seen many posts of novice players having problems finding water, and drinking water from a lake is a safety net. Even veteran players, either in co-op games or games with loot percentage turned down have used that safety net. Well, that safety net is not absolutely necessary, one could simply say that bad luck means you die. Or give the trader clean water to sell at high prices (which would not help novice players in most cases, they won't have many dukes either).

 

Generally yes, your solution is a valid solution. Assuming the developers thought about a similar scheme they probably have applied different values to the advantages and disadvantages of those schemes and came to a different conclusion than you. I could have lived with both solutions. But since I value the immersion effect of being able to get water from a lake to nearly zero I would probably be leaning to the current solution because of the way water is a balancing act between food and glue and because dew collectors are another workstation and a more creative approach than your solution. I would really really prefer it if zombies were actually targetting workstations standing around so you had to protect them.

 

 

One problematic thing is that novice players need a way to drink from water as a last resort. Even veteran players do that from time to time

 

 

All very true what you say. And there are benefits to the introduction of dew collectors, no doubt about that. Especially mid- to late game where you have established yourself and reap the rewards of your early efforts: You'ved move beyond the primitive methods of your early days, you've basically established a tiny island of civilization. 

In itself that can only be a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. It's what a game like this is partly about, kind of, isn't it? Overcoming challenges so they ceise to being challenges - and enabling you to turn your mind towards other challenges that have since come about. All well and good.

 

But like I said, my issue is with the - in my eyes - very hamfisted way in which TFP went to solve this problem.

And, on a side note, that and the lack of communication. I play mostly indie games, almost exclusively, and I have to say TFP really stands out when it comes to being tight-lipped, vague and disorganized in what they deem worthy to convey to the public.

 

In any case, you're talking about "movie grade science". Yes, absolutely. It's what a game that wants to be fun for the masses of us needs to be. But there is no movie grade science in not being able to gather water from a body of water, is there? It's like they had this goal in mind and then went and picked the most artificial, nonsensical way to achieve that goal. Because all they saw is the problem it solves but not the problem it creates.

 

That is my issue with TFP. They give me the impression that they don't really care. At least not from the top down, where the decisions are made. Like they want to make a game that has plenty of surface appeal, and that in the end that's all they want. To rake in the dukes. Like they're done with it. 

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm too harsh, but that's my impression.

 

As for newbies, yes, very valid point, in my opinion. But couldn't that be solved with a good, solid tutorial? As in, "In the beginning you will have trouble getting enough food and drinkable water. Looting kitchens or other places where you can expect food and water will help with that, as well as hunting animals. Also, you can drink water from any body of water by pressing "E" when you hold nothing in your hands." 

What do you think is worse? A handholding tutorial like that, or gamey, shoehorning mechanical changes to the whole game?  

[meganoth]

10 hours ago, Skaarphy said:

In any case, you're talking about "movie grade science"

 

That was only a side remark to make sure we are on the same page that none of that is really realistic, just some is less and some is more.

 

Just as an example of something you might or might not have noticed, isn't it very very weird that you need to cook murky water so you can make glue out of it? Does it mean that simple bacteria somehow prevent glue making?

 

10 hours ago, Skaarphy said:

But there is no movie grade science in not being able to gather water from a body of water, is there?

 

Ah well, if you make an effort you can try to explain everything in a fake kind of way. So lets say that lake water is so dirty/toxic/whatever that you can't use it for glue and for drinking. Since even murky water is not good enough for glue (something we all have accepted without much protest) it sounds logical that even more contaminated water does not produce glue reliably as well. And your character in the game seems to know no way to make lake water into clean water, not with just cooking it for a while. So your character does not use lake water for anything, he knows it makes only problems. Sounds faintly logical so far?  Now the only exception is, that he actually will drink water from the lake in life-or-death situations, before he is to die of thirst. Luckily he seems to only get dysentery instead of something serious.

 

Hey, don't blame me for trying 😁.

 

I once watched the movie "Mission Impossible 2". I liked MI1 and also had no problem with MI2 until that scene at the end in the tunnel where they had a flying helicopter tied to a train in a train tunnel and the helicopter did not crash!! I could not accept that. It soured the whole movie and the series for me and it took a long time for me to forget and have fun watching later parts of the series.

Now I told this to friends and it seems nobody else had that same reaction. For them this part was not exceptionally "impossible" but on par with the rest of the movies exaggerated action. Maybe the lake water in 72D2 is *your* helicopter moment. For me it is just on par with all the other stretches of believability I accept to have a fun experience.

 

 

[omegaflames]

On 8/2/2024 at 10:20 AM, Krougal said:

LOL. That's harsh man, even for me, and I am @%$#ing savage when it comes to insulting people.

A moderator still has to maintain a certain decorum.

I mean if you were a dev, would you want people who regularly bash you and your game moderating your forum?

I think Meganoth and Roland really do a good job of walking the fine line between their duty as moderators and taking part in discussions as players. Nothing against the rest of the mods either, they are just the 2 most visible.

 

ON-TOPIC:

Not being able to gather water from readily available sources is much more immersion breaking than anything, yes, even my kludgy hack that summons a jar out of nowhere when you r-click water. I can hand wave away the container as "not everything has to be strictly represented in the game". I mean I guess it is immersion breaking that I don't have to stop and @%$# like every hour or two, but I am fine without that level of immersion.

 

Water being the basic need that it is, if you want to make it a survival issue, it has to become like a central theme. So either the world all got turned into a blasted wasteland, or even just desert, and then water sources become a dominant issue. Insert your favorite B-grade Max Max clone here. 

 

Can deny it all y'all want, but it is about glue and gating and nothing else. 

 

Once again, I feel the need to mention the helmet mod for purifying water would be end-game loot not something I almost always find on day 1 if it were about drinking water.

I never said he had to bash the devs, but he doesn't have to defend the water thing to be a moderator. I went to Boy Scouts as a kid (before it became @%$# scouts) and earned the Eagle Scout Award. If in real life I built a base beside a lake/river, had fire, and something to hold the water so I could boil it (I don't maybe something like a cooking pot....) I would not be able to not have infinite drinking water. I would have to make a conscious desicion to suicide myself for that to happen. Everyone that came up with and defends this decision deserves every bit of ire we have been giving them because of how utterly stupid it is and as you can see Meganoth is one of those people. Personally I think this has less to do with glue and more to do with them not being able to fix all the bugs they had with the water voxels and decided this "feature" was a better idea than just admiting publicly they can't figure water. I could respect someone running into bugs that they simply aren't knowledgable enough to fix. I can not respect someone thinking I can't drink river water.

[meganoth]

48 minutes ago, omegaflames said:

I never said he had to bash the devs, but he doesn't have to defend the water thing to be a moderator. I went to Boy Scouts as a kid (before it became @%$# scouts) and earned the Eagle Scout Award. If in real life I built a base beside a lake/river, had fire, and something to hold the water so I could boil it (I don't maybe something like a cooking pot....) I would not be able to not have infinite drinking water. I would have to make a conscious desicion to suicide myself for that to happen. Everyone that came up with and defends this decision deserves every bit of ire we have been giving them because of how utterly stupid it is and as you can see Meganoth is one of those people. Personally I think this has less to do with glue and more to do with them not being able to fix all the bugs they had with the water voxels and decided this "feature" was a better idea than just admiting publicly they can't figure water. I could respect someone running into bugs that they simply aren't knowledgable enough to fix. I can not respect someone thinking I can't drink river water.

 

You can think what you like, but then the developers are either lying or are stupid as well because they said the changes were partly to get rid of glass jars AND make water a commodity that is not unlimited.

 

You really have to understand that this game does not try to be a simulation. The developers have said multiple times that gameplay trumps realism when they design this game. You can disagree but calling everyone stupid just because they think likewise and disagree with your viewpoint is very narrowminded.

 

This game has a lot of features that are absolutely impossible in real life and they are there because, again, gameplay trumps realism: You can carry hundreds of tons, including complete vehicles in your inventory, you can hop on blocks you have placed while jumping, your bullets make more damage when you are better trained, at blood moon several laws of physics are violated, you never need to go to the toilet or sleep, workstations craft while you are away. Probably all things you accept, but I am stupid when I defend a similar concept that likewise makes gameplay better in my view?

 

 

 

Edited August 5 by meganoth (see edit history)

[omegaflames]

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

 

You can think what you like, but then the developers are lying to us or stupid as well because they said the changes were partly to get rid of glass jars AND make water a commodity that is not unlimited.

 

You really have to understand that this game does not try to be a simulation. The developers have said multiple times that gameplay trumps realism when they design this game. You can disagree but calling everyone stupid just because they think likewise and disagree with your viewpoint is very narrowminded.

 

This game has a lot of features that are absolutely impossible in real life and they are there because, again, gameplay trumps realism: You can carry hundreds of tons, including complete vehicles in your inventory, you can hop on blocks you have placed while jumping, your bullets make more damage when you are better trained, at blood moon several laws of physics are violated, you never need to go to the toilet or sleep. Probably all things you accept, but I am stupid when I defend a similar concept that likewise makes gameplay better in my view?

 

 

 

Yes you are stupid for defending such a retarted change. 

[meganoth]

16 minutes ago, omegaflames said:

Yes you are stupid for defending such a retarted change. 

 

An argument I last heard in kindergarden 😉

[omegaflames]

4 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

An argument I last heard in kindergarden 😉

You are the one who asked me if you are stupid for defending it. I answered your question. If you didn't want to hear my answer then you should not have asked it. Do everyone here a favor and go back to kindergarden where you will have someone to play with at your mental capacity.

[BFT2020]

When they announced that water jars were leaving in A21, I embraced the change and even modded them out in A20 to get an idea on how that was going to be.  I found the changes to be refreshing and added more to the gameplay.  I don't care that in real life I can take a bunch of jars and fill them up in the local lake, I also am not fighting off hordes of zombies in real life.

 

Everyone is going to have a different opinion on changes to the game, but the thing is, you can easily mod the game to bring back water jars if that is what you desire...and if you play multiplayer, then find a server that feels the same as you.

 

As Boy Scouts, we were trained to follow the Scout Law, based on 12 principles.  When we became Eagle Scouts, we were tasked with being a high level example of those principles to everyone out there.  As an Eagle Scout myself, I have to ask you - does calling someone stupid or @%$#ed because they like and defend something you don't like in a game an example of those principles we been tasked to show?

Edited August 5 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[Riamus]

Yeah, doesn't sound like someone who was an Eagle Scout to me.  Name calling is childish and won't get you anywhere in a discussion other than ignored.  And being ignored means you aren't going to have any chance of convincing anyone that your argument is valid.

[omegaflames]

On 8/5/2024 at 10:58 AM, BFT2020 said:

As an Eagle Scout myself, I have to ask you - does calling someone stupid or @%$#ed because they like and defend something you don't like in a game an example of those principles we been tasked to show?

A Scout is:

TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.

It is dishonest of you to imply that I called him stupid out of the blue. As I pointed out earlier to him and now again to you, he asked if he was stupid for defending the devs retarted decision to tell people they can't drink river/lake water. If he didn't want to know my opinion on his level of mental capacity then he should not have asked me. I did not volunteer that opinion, he asked it of me and I gave him an honest answer. Meganoth has spent years lying to people and gas lighting them by ignoring people's well reasoned complaints about certain aspects of and changes to the game.

It's an obvious lie that this is about limiting glue since the easiest method of limiting people's access to glue is to both reduce the drop rate and change the recipe. Instead of glue only requiring 1 clean water it could require 10 or 20 or even 100 and that would have given them the same level of reduction that removing river/lake water did while being not only easier to code but also having no impact on the several other things water is also used for.

Edit: As a side note has anyone noticed those who are the most vocal about supporting such a dumb change are no lifers who forum warrior all day long? Riamus has an average of 4.6 posts per day in the just under 2 years he's been on the forums. BFT2020 has an average of 10.5 posts per day in the just under 4 years he's been on the forums. Yall need to go touch some grass, and no the grass in Navezgane does not count.

Edited August 7 by omegaflames (see edit history)

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, omegaflames said:

A Scout is:

TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.

It is dishonest of you to imply that I called him stupid out of the blue. As I pointed out earlier to him and now again to you, he asked if he was stupid for defending the devs retarted decision to tell people they can't drink river/lake water. If he didn't want to know my opinion on his level of mental capacity then he should not have asked me. I did not volunteer that opinion, he asked it of me and I gave him an honest answer. Meganoth has spent years lying to people and gas lighting them by ignoring people's well reasoned complaints about certain aspects of and changes to the game.

It's an obvious lie that this is about limiting glue since the easiest method of limiting people's access to glue is to both reduce the drop rate and change the recipe. Instead of glue only requiring 1 clean water it could require 10 or 20 or even 100 and that would have given them the same level of reduction that removing river/lake water did while being not only easier to code but also having no impact on the several other things water is also used for.

Edit: As a side note has anyone noticed those who are the most vocal about supporting such a dumb change are no lifers who forum warrior all day long? Riamus has an average of 4.6 posts per day in the just under 2 years he's been on the forums. BFT2020 has an average of 10.5 posts per day in the just under 4 years he's been on the forums. Yall need to go touch some grass, and no the grass in Navezgane does not count.

And have you bother to look at my posts?  I complain about things often.  Lately, it has been the bad choice to restrict traders by biomes.  Just because someone visits the forum and posts doesn't make their opinions any less valid than yours.  Besides, probably half my posts are answering questions and helping people.  It is also extremely easy to spend 5-10 minutes responding to various posts and have 5 posts in that short time.  If the best you can do is call names and ridicule people for their opinions, you have a lot worse problems than someone who actually has no life.

 

You should also understand basic cause and effect.  If someone hates the game, they might make one post and leave.  Some might make 10-20 if they want to respond to people.  A few might really want to bash the game and might post 100 times.  After that, they are gone.  If someone really likes the game and wants to answer questions and help out (and support the game), they'll post a lot more.  This will always make people who like a game post more than people who do not.  This isn't always the case, of course.  This game has been around for over 10 years and has changed a lot.  People who loved the game in the early alphas may have posted a lot back then but hate it today.  Even so, yes, people with a lot of posts are pretty much going to be the ones who like the game a lot (either now or on the past).  Nothing wrong with that. 

 

This whole "only my opinion matters and anyone disagreeing is dumb" nonsense we have been seeing lately is just childish behavior.

 

You taking the time to calculate number of posts per day shows more of a lack of life than responding to questions on a forum, btw.

Edited August 7 by Riamus (see edit history)

[meganoth]

22 hours ago, omegaflames said:

A Scout is:

TRUSTWORTHY. Tell the truth and keep promises. People can depend on you.

It is dishonest of you to imply that I called him stupid out of the blue. As I pointed out earlier to him and now again to you, he asked if he was stupid for defending the devs retarted decision to tell people they can't drink river/lake water. If he didn't want to know my opinion on his level of mental capacity then he should not have asked me. I did not volunteer that opinion, he asked it of me and I gave him an honest answer. Meganoth has spent years lying to people and gas lighting them by ignoring people's well reasoned complaints about certain aspects of and changes to the game.

 

 

The question was a rhethorical question, a polite answer would have been to say that you disagree and why. Because it is impolite to say that to someone else, especially in a discussion. You might say "Oh man, I am an idiot" when you make a mistake, but it is impolite if you say that to some stranger, even if he did a mistake. Now I don't mind much that you still answered the question, but you really should start talking about the game instead of discussing what you think about specific people on the forum.

 

Hint: You can ignore people that get on your nerves, including me. Instead of talking about them.

 

22 hours ago, omegaflames said:

It's an obvious lie that this is about limiting glue since the easiest method of limiting people's access to glue is to both reduce the drop rate and change the recipe. Instead of glue only requiring 1 clean water it could require 10 or 20 or even 100 and that would have given them the same level of reduction that removing river/lake water did while being not only easier to code but also having no impact on the several other things water is also used for.

 

But what would that change if water was unlimited? If 1 glue needs 1 water, I would go to the lake with 50 empty bottles and with one swoop had enough water for 50 glue. If glue needs 10 water I would go to the lake with 500 empty bottles and with one swoop would have enough water for 50 glue. The only difference is the crafting cost for the bottles.

 

Is that good for the game balance? STR is already the easiest most powerful attribute, this would boost it even more as the miner would have by far the lowest crafting cost and all others would have to mine longer, at the start of the game but also later when a larger amount of their small supply of sand needs to be used for bottle crafting instead of concrete.

 

Your idea is definitely an alternative to the solution TFP implemented. Both would limit glue. But almost all solutions have advantages (more realism for example, easier to implement) and disadvantages (balance, still empty bottles in the game, limiting through mining grind). And TFP has said one of their motives for choosing their solution was to remove those empty bottles altogether. I am just the messenger here. This was officially said by TFP and lots of people here on the forum have read that as well.

 

TFP surely had multiple options to go forward. And they decided they liked the one with dew collectors the best, especially since one of their objectives was to remove emtpy bottles (again, officially said, I am only repeating that). Both their and your solution limit glue production. That your method would be easier to implement is just one factor, sometimes people do not choose the easiest solution. Sometimes they choose the one that they like the most.

 

Edited August 8 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Syphon583]

20 hours ago, omegaflames said:

It is dishonest of you to imply that I called him stupid out of the blue.

It makes no difference whether you chose to insult someone "out of the blue". Insulting someone at all is obnoxiously childish and just makes it harder for other players to have an honest conversation with you. This is the absolute opposite behavior that is taught in Boy Scouts and I would be embarrassed if I were one of your leaders.

 

20 hours ago, omegaflames said:

Yall need to go touch some grass

Boy, never heard that one before!

[Skaarphy]

On 8/3/2024 at 5:05 AM, meganoth said:

 

That was only a side remark to make sure we are on the same page that none of that is really realistic, just some is less and some is more.

 

Just as an example of something you might or might not have noticed, isn't it very very weird that you need to cook murky water so you can make glue out of it? Does it mean that simple bacteria somehow prevent glue making?

 

 

Ah well, if you make an effort you can try to explain everything in a fake kind of way. So lets say that lake water is so dirty/toxic/whatever that you can't use it for glue and for drinking. Since even murky water is not good enough for glue (something we all have accepted without much protest) it sounds logical that even more contaminated water does not produce glue reliably as well. And your character in the game seems to know no way to make lake water into clean water, not with just cooking it for a while. So your character does not use lake water for anything, he knows it makes only problems. Sounds faintly logical so far?  Now the only exception is, that he actually will drink water from the lake in life-or-death situations, before he is to die of thirst. Luckily he seems to only get dysentery instead of something serious.

 

Hey, don't blame me for trying 😁.

 

I once watched the movie "Mission Impossible 2". I liked MI1 and also had no problem with MI2 until that scene at the end in the tunnel where they had a flying helicopter tied to a train in a train tunnel and the helicopter did not crash!! I could not accept that. It soured the whole movie and the series for me and it took a long time for me to forget and have fun watching later parts of the series.

Now I told this to friends and it seems nobody else had that same reaction. For them this part was not exceptionally "impossible" but on par with the rest of the movies exaggerated action. Maybe the lake water in 72D2 is *your* helicopter moment. For me it is just on par with all the other stretches of believability I accept to have a fun experience.

 

 

I did notice that, and from what I recall other people have too but didn't make a big fuss out of it. It kind of fell to the wayside among bigger issues like, "Where are my goddamn jars?", "Aarghh, dew collectors!", "I'm dying of thirst, water, I need water!",  and, of course, most important of all, "Why can't I gather water from a body of water?"

 

I like your "explanation" though. It really stretches basically everything, but if you want it to it does make sense. I can completely relate. If I like something and there are plotholes - in the widest sense - I have no problem filling them with whatever I deem fits. 

But as much as I like your explanation - and I know it's not meant to be taken seriously - it doesn't work for me. Which is my problem. Nothing works for me here. It's just too much. It demands too much. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, one of the best assets of 7DTD is how natural it feels. The - occasionally - nonsensical roads aside. cities, towns, the rural areas, they all feel like it's something you're familiar with. I think this is one of 7DTD*s greatest draws. The whole voxel thing where you can create and destroy basically everything, the horde night which necessitates figuring out a good base, the game stage concept, etc. etc., all of that, I believe wouldn't be as fun to engage with if it weren't for this attempted realism of the world. That's how I see it, in any case.

 

And the thing is, with this whole no-gathering-water-from-bodies-of-water, they're taking away from that. Which for me, in consequence, takes away from the whole game. 

 

In any case, I remember that scene from Mission Impossible 2. Just my thoughts: Scenes like that is why I believe that we see superhero movie after superhero movie in the movies these days. Because they can do completely nonsensical, over-the-top, eye-candy bull@%$# scenes like that and people will accept it. Because "superhero movie", who gives a @%$#. 

They can do these scenes - which they know rakes in the money - and no one will bat an eye.

 

So yes, you're probably right, the lake water issue in 7DTD is my "helicopter moment", I'm just saddened to see that TFP chose to go down that route. Just like in Hollywood movies, apparently, sooner or later you just want to rake in the money.     

[meganoth]

7 minutes ago, Skaarphy said:

Just like in Hollywood movies, apparently, sooner or later you just want to rake in the money.

 

I can fully relate to you having this strong reaction to the change where I don't even bat an eye. But this sentence I don't understand: Why would the controversial change to water make them rake in more money? They obviously hurt their sales somewhat by this because part of the players downvote them on steam.

 

[Krougal]

Speaking of, just like movies, we can assume some things happen "off-screen". I don't know why the topic always comes back to empty jars.

The jars are gone. Good riddance. Everyone needs to get over it.

They are not required to collect water from lakes, as proved by zzztong and myself with modlets.

The fact that we summon an empty jar out of thin air to make a full one is the same exact mechanic as the dew collector when all is said and done.

It is as idiotic as the "swallowing the healing potion jar and all" gag; the whole thing of a video game is imagination. It is a lot less of a stretch of my imagination that I've got a backpack of empty plastic bottles or the like and I recycle as a frugal and conscientious post-apocalypse consumer without even giving it a second thought, than it is that I can't take some dirty water from a nearby lake and purify it.

[Razorpony]

Hear me out, guys. What if water jars were made of polymer? You probably wouldn't be making 500 of them just to fill with water. 

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Razorpony said:

Hear me out, guys. What if water jars were made of polymer? You probably wouldn't be making 500 of them just to fill with water. 

Why wouldn't you?  I always have stacks of the stuff.  The only way to get jars back now is with a mod.