Some of these changes may make for a bad experience for new players.

[Kiern]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

First, being someone who develops software (even if not games), I have experience with developing things in a way that works for new users.  I have experience in understanding the difficulties new users will face with any software project because I have to design software with that in mind.  It doesn't matter what my knowledge or skill level is.  I can still see it from their point of view.  And I know that most new players are not going to be stupid and unable to get the hang of this game.  The game is hardly a difficult game on default settings.  Far more difficult games are out there and they do just fine without trying to ease new players into the game.

 

Any player who has played any game with archery or even any ranged weapons and sees something running around will know they can kill it (or at least they'll know it can probably be killed and will try to do so).  Anyone with experience with such games will have only a slight challenge figuring out the bow.  If they aren't used to using a bow, then sure, it'll take practice.  But it's not a requirement to go after chickens and rabbits anyhow.  I almost never kill those even from the first game I played.  There is plenty of meat available without killing them.  And with the increase in deer, it's not hard to do in the forest.  Deer are slow until you spook them.

 

For pallets of resources, yes, once again the new player may not know the best tool immediately.  So what?  If they use the stone axe to get the resources for a while until figuring out the shovel works better for certain palettes, it doesn't hurt anything.  And since they don't know any better, they won't even notice that it is taking too long.  It'll be a nice surprise when they figure out the faster way to get those resources.

 

As far as debuffs not being on the known issues list, that list is not a great source for what is known.  I'm going off what the devs posted on the forums that there was a problem with the debuffs that they needed to fix.  That being said, it was mentioned during experimental and I don't know if it's been fixed yet (based on what they consider fixed).  I know that I don't get an issue with debuffs anymore but I've seen people who say it's still happening, so I don't know if it's still a bug that just doesn't affect everyone.

 

I did see your suggestions for the starter items.  I have no problem with changes there as long as it's not too much.  I was referencing the idea that new players can't figure out the game and need to be walked through how to do stuff.  I've admitted that a casual gamer with little or no experience in games like this (such as people who only play games like Candy Crush) would find this game hard to learn.  But those types of players are not very likely to choose to play this game anyhow.  Anyone who has even a little experience with this type of game (or any genres with similar themes - FPS, RPG, etc.) can figure it out without having someone explain to kill an animal for food or to buy a pot to cook with if the recipe says you need a pot and you haven't found one or similar things.

 

As far as player numbers before A21, this is normal.  Once they are nearing a new alpha, players numbers drop significantly.  Many people don't want to play when a new alpha is coming and so stop playing until then.  The fact that we have record numbers now and those numbers didn't take a steep nosedive in the first few days that would suggest a lot of players trying the game and finding it too hard to play is a good indication that it's not too hard to play.  And have you looked at the reviews since A21?  Very positive.  And the ones that aren't positive aren't saying it is too hard.  They are saying they don't like the changes.  It is the veteran players complaining.  I really don't think they have anything to worry about for players.  They'll lose some, sure.  That's normal and nothing to worry about.  There will be people who try the game and decide it's not the kind of game they enjoy.  There will even be some who think the game is too hard (even if there wasn't a debuff bug) because they are not used to playing this kind of game.  Again, not anything to worry about.  In the end, these numbers will rise more for every alpha until gold.  Active numbers will always spike with each alpha and then slowly drop off as most people don't play the same game non-stop and will set it aside for other games and come back off any on to play it.  Nothing to worry about there.

 

I'd also point out that I've only been playing this game for about a year.  I remember quite well what it was like as a new player and I didn't have any trouble learning the game.  The issue for new players is the debuff bug.  Everything else is pretty clear, though as I've said, having something to make the Journal more noticeable for new players would be useful - assuming it has useful information in there as I've never read it.  They chose to do a tutorial that had to craft a bunch of stuff instead of one that tells you how to access the various important menus like many other games do in their tutorials.  I don't think it's a good way to do a tutorial and I said that many months ago but it isn't horrible.  I'd be fine with the tutorial being a more standard type of tutorial, telling the user important information and keys rather than just saying to craft a bunch of stuff.  That would be better, imo.  It should also be optional without losing the starting perk points.

 

Think back to when you started.  Did you need someone to explain how to use your perk points?  The game doesn't tell you (unless it's in the Journal, which I doubt many people ever look at).  But it's so common to gaming that it doesn't take much effort to figure it out.  Maybe you don't know the "best" perks to choose but that's entirely different from not being able to figure out the game.

 

I stand by the belief that games do not need to treat players like they are 5 years old.  Get them enough info to get started and then let them loose and let them figure out the rest by themselves.  There isn't any need to explain everything to them.  A Journal entry is enough and they just need to make it clear that the new player can read their Journal for help.  That should be part of the tutorial.  Do that and the rest is not a big deal beyond the debuff bug.

At least read the entire post you are quoting before writing a long response that talks about things I never even suggested.  I said exactly what I meant in that post you quoted.  The status effects are the problem.  I saw no mention of this on their known issues page. If it is working as intended, then all those other factors I mentioned would come into play.  if not, most of them don't.

 

You mentioned when we started playing.  It wasn't like this when we started playing.  That is the problem.   I mentioned that my concern was for the people that bought the game during the summer sale and are experiencing all of these status effects. I mentioned stamina as an issue, not by itself, but because the status effects compounded any other issues new players might have. if you can't run, jump, or attack, then the status effects will happen more often. That is what is punishing, not the stamina itself. 

 

I even said in that post that you quoted that I was only suggesting that they add a water or two to start with and maybe a better food item.  Maybe some extra bandages and meds if the status effects are working as intended. And, maybe add a line or two to that pop-up note from the guy that saved us that they need to find a cooking pot and grill.  I don't see how that is treating players like the are 5 years old.  If the status effects get fixed, then I would still suggest an extra water and better food item and the note.  That's all. Just enough to give them some breathing room on that first day, while they are trying to figure things out.  The rest was just me countering what the person I quoted was saying.  And, yes, I looked at those positive reviews.  One of them is mine, from two days ago.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Kiern (see edit history)

[Lamblaska]

On 7/8/2023 at 1:44 AM, Kiern said:

I have been playing the game for a while, so I can deal with all of the changes (Most of which I really like), but they do make the early game much more difficult, and mention of the Steam summer sale made me think about new players. 

 

New players already have a lot to figure out, without all the additional things that can frustrate and kill them.  Not only is water harder to come by, but you can't boil it until you find a cooking pot.  You also need to find a grill to make some of the basic food items.  Then there are the ridiculously easy to get status effects.  In that early game you are going to get them often, especially as a newer player still trying to get used to the mechanics.  Stamina has always been an early game issue, but now it is compounded by all of these other issues.  New players should be eased into the game, but they are now being thrown immediately into the deep end.  Can you imagine what a new player would think when the left side of their screen is full of status effects, they can't run, they can jump, they get stunned easily, they bleed out, they get infected, they're starving and dehydrated, etc, and they have no way to fix it, even if they knew how.  Yes, in time these things will be much less of an issue, but they won't know that.  That is their first, possibly only, impression of the game.  Many will assume that is just how the whole game is and give up.  It may not be the best idea to design the game specifically around players who have been playing for years.  

 

Just some food for thought.  No need to reply.  I'm good with the new challenges, and I know it gets better once I get some items and skills under my belt.  Unfortunately, new players won't have that knowledge to motivate them to push through.

I don't know man... it's a survival game after all. I think the whole point of punishing is import to the whole "survival" atmosphere. It's part of this game genre. Reduce punish too much and you loose how immersive it can be.  Messing up, getting conditions, be thirsty and hungry... all of this is important to learn and adapt. And being hard without being punished... what does that mean? It's like more grind and lengthier? Have a zombie that can take more hits but do not apply effects on you? I really don't think it is the way to go.  I also think if you postpone this conditions to a later game players will only increase their frustration, since they will have invested more time to face them and will require more time to try again and understand what they did wrong will be harder. 

I don't think players are throwed in to the deep. The game will spawn players in the forest - the easiest biome (at least all the recent game sessions I had both solo and in group everyone spawned in the forest). Usually not close from a urban area and with their belly full and an extra water and food can. That provide about 1-2 hour to move around. It is highly unlikely to face a feral or a dog this early (specially now with the POI difficult displayed). And things are usually intuitive - like: kitchens have a high likelihood of providing pans or canned food, even ready to drink coffee. And zombies do not outrun you... so most of the times you can avoid them. 

Tweaks are indeed required. As well as improvement in tutorial and journal information as a lot of other people mentioned it.

[AtomicUs5000]

This is definitely something to keep an eye on, but where is all of the evidence that this is a major issue right now? I don't see any more posts (here, Reddit, Steam) talking about early game being too difficult than usual, possibly less in fact. I searched recent reviews, but I couldn't find anybody refunding the game for these reasons. I'm finding more complaints that the game got easier.

 

There's no harm in a little more guidance in what you need to do in the beginning, but for the most part, I think people see the title "7 Days to Die" and see that it is a survival game and actually expect it to be brutal from the start.

 

 

5 hours ago, Riamus said:

First, being someone who develops software (even if not games), I have experience with developing things in a way that works for new users.  I have experience in understanding the difficulties new users will face with any software project because I have to design software with that in mind.  It doesn't matter what my knowledge or skill level is.  I can still see it from their point of view.  And I know that most new players are not going to be stupid and unable to get the hang of this game.  The game is hardly a difficult game on default settings.  Far more difficult games are out there and they do just fine without trying to ease new players into the game.

[snip]

I stand by the belief that games do not need to treat players like they are 5 years old.  Get them enough info to get started and then let them loose and let them figure out the rest by themselves.  There isn't any need to explain everything to them.  A Journal entry is enough and they just need to make it clear that the new player can read their Journal for help.  That should be part of the tutorial.  Do that and the rest is not a big deal beyond the debuff bug.

 
I do as well, but I just wanted to add that a game is quite different than most software. For most software the goal is to provide a tool to solve some problem where a game tends to present at least one problem for a user to solve. Most software tries to remove anything that might be considered a challenge, but a game purposely presents it.

[pottervogel]

10 hours ago, Rince said:

I mean that you must unequip any tool/weapon and stare the water for two seconds.

I saw people trying to get the correct angle, or trying to figure why the prompt to drink water doesn't appear.

You're right. Thats an issue.

Edited July 10, 2023 by pottervogel (see edit history)

[Riamus]

5 hours ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

I do as well, but I just wanted to add that a game is quite different than most software. For most software the goal is to provide a tool to solve some problem where a game tends to present at least one problem for a user to solve. Most software tries to remove anything that might be considered a challenge, but a game purposely presents it.

Of course.  My point was that I knew how to understand the new user experience even if I wasn't a new user myself.  That part doesn't matter whether it is from apps or games or even tech support.  They all require you to understand what new users will think and how they'll react to things if you are any good at the job.  There are plenty of people in those positions who are unable to understand the new user experience and that's why you can often find very unnecessarily complicated software or tech support who can't explain something in layman's terms but there are also those who do understand and that skill can apply to anything, including games.

 

8 hours ago, Kiern said:

At least read the entire post you are quoting before writing a long response that talks about things I never even suggested.  I said exactly what I meant in that post you quoted.  The status effects are the problem.  I saw no mention of this on their known issues page. If it is working as intended, then all those other factors I mentioned would come into play.  if not, most of them don't.

I did read your post as well as your other posts and also the original post.  The response was directed at the entire topic of discussion and not just that last post.  You provided a number of different ways (not all are related to debuffs or even stamina) that the game is too difficult to understand for new users in your different posts.  I was responding to everything you were writing and not just one single post.  Quoting all your posts is not worthwhile.  If you are now saying that the only thing you really see as being difficult for the new user is the debuff problem, then I have already said I agree with you on that.  That wasn't what you started out with or continued with, even into your last post where you were still making it seem like just figuring out how to get meat by killing an animal would be counterintuitive or in some way hard to figure out.

[Kiern]

3 hours ago, Riamus said:

Of course.  My point was that I knew how to understand the new user experience even if I wasn't a new user myself.  That part doesn't matter whether it is from apps or games or even tech support.  They all require you to understand what new users will think and how they'll react to things if you are any good at the job.  There are plenty of people in those positions who are unable to understand the new user experience and that's why you can often find very unnecessarily complicated software or tech support who can't explain something in layman's terms but there are also those who do understand and that skill can apply to anything, including games.

 

I did read your post as well as your other posts and also the original post.  The response was directed at the entire topic of discussion and not just that last post.  You provided a number of different ways (not all are related to debuffs or even stamina) that the game is too difficult to understand for new users in your different posts.  I was responding to everything you were writing and not just one single post.  Quoting all your posts is not worthwhile.  If you are now saying that the only thing you really see as being difficult for the new user is the debuff problem, then I have already said I agree with you on that.  That wasn't what you started out with or continued with, even into your last post where you were still making it seem like just figuring out how to get meat by killing an animal would be counterintuitive or in some way hard to figure out.

Well the post you quoted clarified what I meant, so the other posts, if unclear, didn't matter, because that one summed up what I was referring to.  And I did mention it in a previous post too.  The other difficulties exist, but are not a problem by themselves.  The status issue is the main problem.  With that in place, the other "normal" challenges compound the problem.  And, at the time, as I mentioned, I saw no mention of it being a bug they were going to fix, so I saw that as a big problem, if it was working as intended.  The water and food situation can be a smaller issue for new players, so adding an extra water and better food item should tide them over until they find a cooking pot and grill. And an addition to the note to tell them they might want to look for those things would probably be good.

 

The problem with the other posts, is that only one person asked what I meant.  One person just said "No", and then went on a rant about how easy the game is.  Now I am looking at it from my perspective of not knowing that TFP mentioned it was a bug they were working on, and that I was only talking about getting them through the first day, so new players had some time to figure things out.  Apparently, that person thought I meant changing the game to make it easier.  So, we ended up with a little back and forth because we were not understanding each other's side.  For example, the meat thing you mentioned, I was thinking only about day 1, and was assuming they meant that they could figure out all of the things they mentioned on day 1, which I thought was ridiculous. Now I get that we were just in too different places, so most of those comments were irrelevant to the discussion.  So, yeah, that kind of muddied the waters.  I made an edit to my OP to clarify what I meant.

[Slingblade2040]

It depends on the new player.  Let's not act like all new players are brain dead and can't grasp this game. 

 

Some will have little to no issues and others will struggle. We have all seen enough streamers or youtube LPs to know that skill is an important factor in some games. No need to keep dumbing this game down just cause some person sucks at playing games and as I've been told before by many people here change the difficulty or use mods. 

[Scyris]

On 7/8/2023 at 10:32 AM, theFlu said:

I dunno man, I wouldn't disagree if you were talking about a care-bear mode, but we have quite a few settings already to reduce the difficulty.

 

But for the base game, the things you mention seem rather on the weak side. Debuffs are actually kinda fine atm, but I think they're just way more common than they're meant to be - something feels broken in the "getting hit" -part, if that gets sorted the debuffs will be weak. I'd make them rarer but more of a headache.. I mean, a concussion cured with an aspirin? Just make it last the 2 hours, and remove its temporary effects with pills - makes you possibly have to manage your stack of pain pills all smart-like.

 

Tic Tac Toe, Checkers, Chess, Go ... all have their places, but none of them are "made" with the beginner in mind. Except maybe the basic tic tac toe ..

 

I'm not against making the game beginner-friendly, just not as an end point. Give me a Go of survival games and give it a good tutorial ..

 

That and they even LOWERED the default difficulty to basically easy mode, it used to be Nomad as default, on Nomad zombies and players do full damage to each other, it was lowered to Adventurer, which is something like players deal 125% to zombies and zombies can only deal 75% of their normal damage to players. The problem is the game doesn't tell you anywhere that its better to avoid hits entirely if possible. In my playthrus I use padded armor until I get the book that makes it so I have no mobility penalty from armor in combat, why? Getting hit is bad in general due to the crit hits and the fact sometimes when you get hit once they land 3-4 things at once. So I prefer the ability to be able to move fast to get to better positioning than trying to sit and tank the hits. With decent armor even crappy military you have over 40% damage reduction, what does the real damage is getting the debuffs which lasts 10 mins to 2 hours, as it lowers your max hp till they are delt with.

 

Biggest thing in A21 i feel for new players is some of the trader spawns, a new player will often spawn in the middle of no where 500m or so from a trader that may or may not have even a single poi nearby, when this happens the nearest town is usually 1-2km away, So they are stuck in the middle of no where, with very little to actually do as most new players usually go and explore poi's but in this situation there ARE none to explore.

 

7dtd is not a hard game tbh, when I was a new player I never had any of the problems I see new players today having, and I mostly went in blind.

[Scyris]

12 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

It depends on the new player.  Let's not act like all new players are brain dead and can't grasp this game. 

 

Some will have little to no issues and others will struggle. We have all seen enough streamers or youtube LPs to know that skill is an important factor in some games. No need to keep dumbing this game down just cause some person sucks at playing games and as I've been told before by many people here change the difficulty or use mods. 

 

But you gotta admit most of them ARE basically braindead though, its been a big issue with the current generation of gamers, they just aren't anywhere near as good as the older gens were. But I agree, we need to stop dumbing games down because that just lowers the skill cieling and they'll never learn. Look at project zomboid, its easly one of the most complex zombie survival sims out there, yet it hasn't really changed itself to cater to new players much. I do feel 7dtd needs a small unskipable tutorial map for a new player. To force teach them the basics before it lets them play ANY other mode, with exact things they need to do. I mean basics beyond the 8 step starter quest. As that starter quest basically doesn't make them learn anything other than how to craft some basic items. Could have a tutorial about skinning animals for meat and how to cook it as well as much much of a diff using a proper tool is for the job, how to get/boil water, that sort of stuff. I've seen some a21 players that never build dew collectors because they don't know about them, as the game doesn't really tell you about them at all. Usual reaction is "this exists?", so could be a tutorial where your made to build one and have to harvest water from it to clear that step (course since its a tutorial speed up the production and the materials providied), maybe tell them they can stone axe it to get it back and start the player with it, which will also quickly give them 3 boiled water as well. Maybe we'll see this sort of stuff in gold, if the game ever gets there, which if I had to be honest as someone who has been around since a10.4 the though of this game ever going gold is a slim possability due to the devs habit of redoing half the game. I mean imma be real, other than graphically the game hasn't really gone anywhere since like a15/16, or even earlier. Same top tier items, same top tier zombies, no real gameplay difference (other than a worse skill system than a16.4). Game just hasn't gone anywhere in years other than visually. The Art team does good work, I just wish the other teams put in even half the effort.

[Rince]

2 hours ago, Scyris said:

 

But you gotta admit most of them ARE basically braindead though, its been a big issue with the current generation of gamers, they just aren't anywhere near as good as the older gens were. But I agree, we need to stop dumbing games down because that just lowers the skill cieling and they'll never learn. Look at project zomboid, its easly one of the most complex zombie survival sims out there, yet it hasn't really changed itself to cater to new players much. I do feel 7dtd needs a small unskipable tutorial map for a new player. To force teach them the basics before it lets them play ANY other mode, with exact things they need to do. I mean basics beyond the 8 step starter quest. As that starter quest basically doesn't make them learn anything other than how to craft some basic items. Could have a tutorial about skinning animals for meat and how to cook it as well as much much of a diff using a proper tool is for the job, how to get/boil water, that sort of stuff. I've seen some a21 players that never build dew collectors because they don't know about them, as the game doesn't really tell you about them at all. Usual reaction is "this exists?", so could be a tutorial where your made to build one and have to harvest water from it to clear that step (course since its a tutorial speed up the production and the materials providied), maybe tell them they can stone axe it to get it back and start the player with it, which will also quickly give them 3 boiled water as well. Maybe we'll see this sort of stuff in gold, if the game ever gets there, which if I had to be honest as someone who has been around since a10.4 the though of this game ever going gold is a slim possability due to the devs habit of redoing half the game. I mean imma be real, other than graphically the game hasn't really gone anywhere since like a15/16, or even earlier. Same top tier items, same top tier zombies, no real gameplay difference (other than a worse skill system than a16.4). Game just hasn't gone anywhere in years other than visually. The Art team does good work, I just wish the other teams put in even half the effort.

I don't like that kind of overgeneralization.

Only because you are old that doesn't make an excellent gamer.

Otherwise I would be a magnificent player, and I'm only a grumpy old player that sucks in most games.

 

Anyways, the tutorial is in need of an update, true. It would be nice to be told about how to drink water from the water sources and the dew collectors, and the magazine system.

[AtomicUs5000]

I'm old and I don't suck at games. Sometimes I appreciate a tutorial when playing something new and there are things I would never possibly figure out on my own... but all I know is that if they make some crazy tutorial that goes beyond that, I want an option to turn it off before it's even made. 
In general, as a new player... you see zombies, you attack zombies, you get messed up and then you die. You might repeat this a couple more times, but ultimately there is no better tutorial to tell a player that maybe they shouldn't do that right away. If someone can't get that hint, I think they probably picked up the wrong kind of game.