Voting system 7 days

[meganoth]

A poll where all users come to an informed decision would have to list all negative and positive effects of a change and all players would need to understand each effect. Impossible, some of the effects are very technical.

 

So instead a simple poll would just ask what the players wants and as soon as TFP decides different (because they look at the whole situation and have different opinions and a different idea about how the game should be in the end) they get critizised why they did that poll if they don't listen to it anyway. Any positive effect a poll might have is overshadowed by the detriment of having to argue with players that "won" the poll.

[KrashYT22]

I can’t imagine any poll that would show that people think there were too many wilderness zombies. TFP didn’t reduce them in response to player wishes, they reduced them for performance reasons. Please provide your source for this premise you keep using for your point.

 

I use this thesis as an example. I can not find the article I read to provide you with this. I in this context is just an example of a question.

[Jihh]

I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about 2 or 3 other people who enjoy using those terms. They know who they are.

 

But you said:"I would venture a guess that those who argue against having the poll are the ones who suspect that their opinion will be in the minority and then they can't keep using those prior mentioned snarky responses."

 

It isn't just those 2-3 other people who argue against polls, but others too. So if you don't include others in your argument, it isn't a valid argument anymore, but just an ad hominem attack. I don't get how going ad hominem is in any way better than doing snarky comments on vocal minorities.

 

but it's still interesting to know

As I and others said, a poll isn't a good instrument for feedback. Limdood explained why.

What polls can do, is giving one group the feeling of being the majority and/or being right, no matter if any of those two feelings are true. So polls don't prevent snarky comments, it promotes them.

[KrashYT22]

Wait, you want to interrupt people while they're doing what they want in order to barrage them with questions.

 

What do you think of people who canvass parking lots for polls or petitions while you're trying to go somewhere? Do you like reading the EULA in games? What if you HAD to? and then answer the questions it was asking before you play?

 

Oh...it's not before you play? It's an optional screen/menu that people can go to, but they don't need to, they could just choose to ignore it and play the game? Then you're right back to the problem with optional polls. They only appeal to the dissatisfied who are looking for an outlet to change things. If I loved everything about the game, why would I give up time that I was looking to spend playing it to answer questions?

 

Also the simplicity of a question does not preclude or determine the leading nature or bias of the question.

 

The question you asked...Do you think that zombies are very few? (this is a yes or no question, by the way)

What do you mean? Do you mean zombies overall in the game? Zombies in POIs (which, In a17 would sometimes have like 16 zombies packed into a 1 family home)? Zombies in the wilderness? Are you asking about the horde sizes? The wandering horde sizes? Are you asking about specific biomes? Are we ignoring or counting the wasteland? What constitutes "very few?" Early game? late game? mid game? Are you asking from a gameplay standpoint? a lore standpoint? a graphics standpoint? a performance standpoint?

 

Your simple question is packed with dozens of places for people to assume what you mean and answer WILDLY differing questions from what you just asked.

 

The question was just for example. If you think a little, you can ask correctly, and maybe a lot.

 

Polls are not during gameplay. The menu will have a tab in the form of a game where you can check the boxes. It will be about specific subjects and so on (for example). In most games there are such polls, for example, which skin to add to the game.

[KrashYT22]

95% of polled players would say stuff like, I want to never get infected, or I want invincible blocks, or I want laser guns.

 

Again, from where such statistics. Again, this irony at random is random. According to my estimates, and staying on the forum, most players are hardcore. They do not need lightness.

 

I myself do not vote for ease or complexity. Immersion and balance are important to me.

[Roland]

I use this thesis as an example. I can not find the article I read to provide you with this. I in this context is just an example of a question.

 

Okay....but you are using this hypothetical example to say that TFP lied. You said that they claimed to listen to player feedback but didn't actually do so and then used this "example" as your proof that they just changed it because they wanted to but claimed it was the desire of the people. After saying THAT you can't now just claim that it was just a hypothetical example to demonstrate your point.

 

Doing such things is what we call libel....

 

The fact is, they DID go to many different sources (steam reviews, facebook and twitter comments, reddit, discord, twitch chats, steam forums) and not just these forums to read what people were saying and what their complaints were and then they made the changes that they felt could help with those complaints but not go against their own goals.

 

Hence, we have the changes we have but LBD and lootable zombie corpses are still nowhere to be found.

 

Its also why we have fewer wilderness spawns when the obvious community vote would be for there to be more wilderness spawns-- development is not poll driven.

[Jihh]

In most games there are such polls, for example, which skin to add to the game.

 

That's the kind of polls you actually can do. But it this the kind of feedback TFP needs right now? Shouldn't they go beta or even gold, before caring for some cosmetic extras?

[KrashYT22]

I noticed that many took the concept of voting, polls too seriously. And so on.

 

The thesis was that this would allow monitoring the opinion in numbers. Figures could be compared with written opinions, and those who would like to draw conclusions. No one is obliging, not hinting, not forcing, not not not. Developers follow, subordinate, and so on, according to the results of the voting. Exactly the same as in the comments of the forum.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Okay....but you are using this hypothetical example to say that TFP lied. You said that they claimed to listen to player feedback but didn't actually do so and then used this "example" as your proof that they just changed it because they wanted to but claimed it was the desire of the people. After saying THAT you can't now just claim that it was just a hypothetical example to demonstrate your point.

 

Doing such things is what we call libel....

 

The fact is, they DID go to many different sources (steam reviews, facebook and twitter comments, reddit, discord, twitch chats, steam forums) and not just these forums to read what people were saying and what their complaints were and then they made the changes that they felt could help with those complaints but not go against their own goals.

 

Hence, we have the changes we have but LBD and lootable zombie corpses are still nowhere to be found.

 

Its also why we have fewer wilderness spawns when the obvious community vote would be for there to be more wilderness spawns-- development is not poll driven.

 

I read this in a patch note article. But I can not find the section in which these comments were used, which I gave as an example. I went into the notes patch last, but for some reason there is 3 times less information than there. Most likely this is not the one. And I can’t find the right one.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

That's the kind of polls you actually can do. But it this the kind of feedback TFP needs right now? Shouldn't they go beta or even gold, before caring for some cosmetic extras?

 

Oh god You can read the word written in my sentence: "" "" "" "" "" "" "" "" EXAMPLE "" "" "" "" "" ""

[KrashYT22]

Okay....but you are using this hypothetical example to say that TFP lied. You said that they claimed to listen to player feedback but didn't actually do so and then used this "example" as your proof that they just changed it because they wanted to but claimed it was the desire of the people. After saying THAT you can't now just claim that it was just a hypothetical example to demonstrate your point.

 

Doing such things is what we call libel....

 

The fact is, they DID go to many different sources (steam reviews, facebook and twitter comments, reddit, discord, twitch chats, steam forums) and not just these forums to read what people were saying and what their complaints were and then they made the changes that they felt could help with those complaints but not go against their own goals.

 

Hence, we have the changes we have but LBD and lootable zombie corpses are still nowhere to be found.

 

Its also why we have fewer wilderness spawns when the obvious community vote would be for there to be more wilderness spawns-- development is not poll driven.

 

'' We also lowered biome spawning some so players could have a little more breathing room when just exploring the world. ''

 

Here is the line from the patch note. Which says it’s easier for players to explore the world. But not in relation to performance. And at the top of the patch, the note says that the changes were based on the feedback from the forums, and the opinion of the developers. That's it in general.

[Brian9824]

Again, from where such statistics. Again, this irony at random is random. According to my estimates, and staying on the forum, most players are hardcore. They do not need lightness.

 

I myself do not vote for ease or complexity. Immersion and balance are important to me.

 

You clearly do not actually visit the steam forums and see all the complaints about people who find the game too hard, or the numerous requests for mods to reduce zombies damage to 0 for instance, or people wanting to be able to craft invincible bases, etc.

[Brian9824]

Okay....but you are using this hypothetical example to say that TFP lied. You said that they claimed to listen to player feedback but didn't actually do so and then used this "example" as your proof that they just changed it because they wanted to but claimed it was the desire of the people. After saying THAT you can't now just claim that it was just a hypothetical example to demonstrate your point.

 

Doing such things is what we call libel....

 

The fact is, they DID go to many different sources (steam reviews, facebook and twitter comments, reddit, discord, twitch chats, steam forums) and not just these forums to read what people were saying and what their complaints were and then they made the changes that they felt could help with those complaints but not go against their own goals.

 

Hence, we have the changes we have but LBD and lootable zombie corpses are still nowhere to be found.

 

Its also why we have fewer wilderness spawns when the obvious community vote would be for there to be more wilderness spawns-- development is not poll driven.

 

Yep. They even stated in the notes that

 

we listened, and committed a ton of effort and resources to address what the Team and Community felt needed improving.

 

It's not just player feedback, as every player has a different opinion. If I had the game my way a lot of people would quit as it would be hard, items would degrade, and it would be a constant struggle.

 

Just like anything else consumers have a very narrow view and often don't know what's best.

 

I've yet to see any example of

There was a huge post from the developers that they read reviews of thousands of players, and did as they asked. But then in each social network it turned out that the players asked in most cases the opposite.

 

I mean the release notes even explicitly say they made changes based on the feedback of their TEAM and community. So seems like OP is trying to twist the wording to try to make it seem like TFP are committing some bizzaro conspiracy to do the opposite of what people want for some reason when there is no evidence backing it up.

[Jihh]

Figures could be compared with written opinions

A good written feedback doesn't need poll figures for comparison. Especially if those partaking in the poll didn't read the written feedback beforehand, since they will miss tons of important details. In the best case you get consesus which renders the poll useless. In the worst case you get different results, which just means that the poll didn't meet the complexity of the topic, which again makes the poll useless.

 

No one is obliging, not hinting, not forcing, not not not.

I'm not very often in this forum. Once in a while I read some comments when I'm bored (I'm talking about like 20 comments a month). The last two days I was quite active in this forum, but that's a coincidence. Still, despite the very little time I spend here, I've read tons of times that people claim TFP isn't listening to the majority and that TFP is making the game bad that way.

It's hard to say how much worse those comments get, if polls were a thing, but usually such figures don't have the tendency to make it better, but worse. So as long as those polls don't provide good feedback or any usefull purpose, why strenghten those claims with them? There is nothing to win. And if in some case there actually is something to win, TFP probably will do a poll even without asking for it.

 

EXAMPLE

I've read that, but thanks for the clarity that I didn't misunderstood you.

As I said, for the example you made, a poll could be usefull, but most likely not now. Regarding topics which are important at the current state of development, polls probably won't help much. What actually helps is good written feedback and discussions, so topics get input from various standpoints.

[Brian9824]

It's also well documented that polls and surveys are heavily biased towards the negative as people as a whole don't fill them out when they are happy, only when they are upset. So you can't rely on a polls. Hence why the best source of info is actual forum posts where people can actually EXPLAIN why the changes are bad.

 

For instance diggingg zombies. A ton of people hated digging zombies and when you actually stopped to find out why its because they wanted a way to bypass the horde and be perfectly safe most of the time. That was not considered a valid reason, and it was rightly ignored even though many people might have been upset over it.

[hotpoon]

But you said:"I would venture a guess that those who argue against having the poll are the ones who suspect that their opinion will be in the minority and then they can't keep using those prior mentioned snarky responses."

 

It isn't just those 2-3 other people who argue against polls, but others too. So if you don't include others in your argument, it isn't a valid argument anymore, but just an ad hominem attack. I don't get how going ad hominem is in any way better than doing snarky comments on vocal minorities.

 

 

As I and others said, a poll isn't a good instrument for feedback. Limdood explained why.

What polls can do, is giving one group the feeling of being the majority and/or being right, no matter if any of those two feelings are true. So polls don't prevent snarky comments, it promotes them.

 

My post was poorly worded - I had certain people in mind when I wrote it. I don't post all that much, but I read a lot, and I've seen a pattern emerge on the forum where the same arguments get brought up by many different people and yet a certain few always tear them down making out as if these are fringe arguments. I for one would love to know what the majority of people think. I don't think most players are as stupid and irrational as some of you guys think. I reckon the poll results would in most cases be quite reasonable as long as the options are worded fairly. But, at the end of the day, it is TFP who decide to take action on poll results or not.

 

You clearly do not actually visit the steam forums and see all the complaints about people who find the game too hard, or the numerous requests for mods to reduce zombies damage to 0 for instance, or people wanting to be able to craft invincible bases, etc.

 

I regularly read the Steam reviews, and can't say I've seen many of those types of arguments. There are some completely irrational ones for sure, but I would say most (especially the longer ones) are generally quite thoughtful.

[Brian9824]

My post was poorly worded - I had certain people in mind when I wrote it. I don't post all that much, but I read a lot, and I've seen a pattern emerge on the forum where the same arguments get brought up by many different people and yet a certain few always tear them down making out as if these are fringe arguments. I for one would love to know what the majority of people think. I don't think most players are as stupid and irrational as some of you guys think. I reckon the poll results would in most cases be quite reasonable as long as the options are worded fairly. But, at the end of the day, it is TFP who decide to take action on poll results or not.

 

 

 

I regularly read the Steam reviews, and can't say I've seen many of those types of arguments. There are some completely irrational ones for sure, but I would say most (especially the longer ones) are generally quite thoughtful.

 

Not the reviews, the forums. Any change that adds difficulty is met by dozens of posts of people upset that a survival game now requires effort.

 

Like when they made farming harder in that 1 seed didn't turn into 200 seeds with 0 effort lots of people complained because they had to actually work to get food now. If TFP blindly listen to everyone the game would be a hot mess. If you've ever worked in product development before you know that while you have to listen to your client, you can't always do what they ask as they often do not see the whole picture.

[Jihh]

For instance diggingg zombies. A ton of people hated digging zombies and when you actually stopped to find out why its because they wanted a way to bypass the horde and be perfectly safe most of the time. That was not considered a valid reason

 

But this example also shows that forums aren't representative. My reason why I don't like digging zombies is another one. Actually my underground bases were those where I was the most active and had to balance different actions (repairing and doing damage, plus destroying corpses, but that is gone anyway). Nowadays I just shot from a safe distance and that's it, while bypassing hordes is still a thing for those who want it, by disableing them or on multiplayer servers logging out, until it's over.

 

Of course written feedback is way better than polls, hence why I argue against polls. But we should still be aware, that it's not as simple as to summarize one side to it's weakest argument and therefor call their interests as invalid.

[Roland]

'' We also lowered biome spawning some so players could have a little more breathing room when just exploring the world. ''

 

Here is the line from the patch note. Which says it’s easier for players to explore the world. But not in relation to performance. And at the top of the patch, the note says that the changes were based on the feedback from the forums, and the opinion of the developers. That's it in general.

 

I'll give you credit that the line you quoted definitely has some spin doctoring going on with it as I really doubt anyone needed any amount of breathing room out in the wilderness. But you can't tie that together with a line at the top of the patch notes-- especially when each section that was changed due to player feedback explicitly mentioned it and this section that you quoted did not.

 

There WAS a ton of player feedback that the POI's were packed too much with sleepers and in the patch notes you can read that TFP explicitly gives this as a reason for reducing the number of sleepers in POI's.

 

Saying that they lowered the spawning so that players could have more breathing room is laughable, I'll grant you, but at least they did not claim it was due to player feedback. In the dev diary, Madmole stated a number of times that it was due to performance and the first step in their future "encounter system". He said that night time spawns were increased and ferals added and wasteland spawns were also increased.

 

The patch notes should have just given the reason as performance increase and first transitional step towards the encounter system. The current reason given is pretty lame-o.....lol

[Jihh]

I for one would love to know what the majority of people think.

I'm active in gaming forums for decades now and I was on the side of the minority as well the majority tons of times. It doesn't matter on what side I was, I always was confident that my arguments and ideas were valid. What matter does it make, how many players are with me? Even if I'm the only one, my ideas could be the best.

I rather have someone telling me why my arguments are bad, than someone telling me I'm part of a minority. I actually stopped being active in the Overwatch forum, because for weeks all I heard was that I should shut my mouth, because I'm part of a minority (despite no polls were made, so it's all just speculation). The last thing I want is that toxic behaviour being supported by polls, despite them being useless af.

Also I rather have someone support my arguments with additional arguments than by him telling me we are the majority. Who the f cares?

 

So overall all this majority and minority thing is just bull♥♥♥♥ when it comes to game mechanics and balance.

[hotpoon]

Not the reviews, the forums. Any change that adds difficulty is met by dozens of posts of people upset that a survival game now requires effort.

 

Like when they made farming harder in that 1 seed didn't turn into 200 seeds with 0 effort lots of people complained because they had to actually work to get food now. If TFP blindly listen to everyone the game would be a hot mess. If you've ever worked in product development before you know that while you have to listen to your client, you can't always do what they ask as they often do not see the whole picture.

 

As a web designer, I know all about the fine art of balancing listening to a client and trusting my experience and expertise. I also know that the worst jobs are ones where I'm reporting to/dealing with multiple people for the same job. Getting 5 people to agree on something is bad enough, so I sure don't envy TFP. It is impossible for them to please everyone. There is always going to be dissent, but if a poll is worded well, you can get useful feedback. If you make a stupid poll, you're going to stupid votes.

 

 

I'm active in gaming forums for decades now and I was on the side of the minority as well the majority tons of times. It doesn't matter on what side I was, I always was confident that my arguments and ideas were valid. What matter does it make, how many players are with me? Even if I'm the only one, my ideas could be the best.

I rather have someone telling me why my arguments are bad, than someone telling me I'm part of a minority. I actually stopped being active in the Overwatch forum, because for weeks all I heard was that I should shut my mouth, because I'm part of a minority (despite no polls were made, so it's all just speculation). The last thing I want is that toxic behaviour being supported by polls, despite them being useless af.

Also I rather have someone support my arguments with additional arguments than by him telling me we are the majority. Who the f cares?

 

So overall all this majority and minority thing is just bull♥♥♥♥ when it comes to game mechanics and balance.

 

I'm starting to see why my initial post ticked you off so much. I disagree with your last sentence though. I think if the majority of players are unhappy about a particular feature, it is probably indicative of poor game mechanics and/or balance.

[Jihh]

I think if the majority of players are unhappy about a particular feature, it is probably indicative of poor game mechanics and/or balance.

 

Out of the ~20 players I played with (I'm well aware they aren't a representative group) about 15 kill themselves everytime they have a broken leg, since they don't like to be slowed down and they don't care enough about being dying. Please don't get me wrong, some of them are good friends, so I don't want to belittle any of them and if that's the way they want to play the game, it is fine with me. But I'm pretty just because they prefer to play the game without breaking legs, doesn't mean it's poor game design.

They actually don't care about most game mechanics that are part of survival. They like to play the game as a zombie shooter with housing, hence why they play with lower difficulty, higher lootrate, higher experience rate and loot respawn every second day.

 

So while I'm aware that this group isn't representative, I'm also aware that not everyone is playing as it is meant to be. I know it's more or less a sandbox game, so there is no right way, but I'm sure you are understanding what I want to say with it. What I'm going for is, that not everyones opinion on game mechanics or balance actually has a survival game or the direction TFP is heading for in mind. But I'm pretty sure that TFP prefer feedback that goes in that direction. Written feedback is way more useful, because you can see where someone is coming from and why he likes/dislikes what he does.

[Roland]

(I'm well aware they aren't a representative group)

 

Just don't trigger yourself by labeling yourself a member of the vocal minority....

[Jihh]

Oh believe me, I'm not triggered yet. Not that I'd get overly aggressive, if I were, but I'm not yet. I just tend to to write a lot, if I'm getting started, so I can easily leave that impression. Luckily for you all my english writing skills are still not that good, so I'll try to keep it short in order to make less mistakes.

 

Also there is nothing wrong in being vocal or being a minority. It's just stupid to think you are a majority, just because you are vocal and to assume you are right, because you allegedly are a majority.

Not that shared opinions are bad, but I rather have good arguments back me up than a majority with no or bad arguments. So I don't even understand why people always claim to have the majority behind them.

 

I know, I know, it was just a joke, no need to get serious, but I'll take any opportunity to share my wisdom.