Meelee combat simple fixes

[fishjie]

Hello, I have noticed some issues with meelee combat and have some recommendations. I play on default difficulty with slightly higher zombie spawn rate and zombies always jog.

 

I've noticed often times that when I swing a sledgehammer and the zombie has already been stunned and lying near some patch of grass, the sledge will hit the grass, and completely "miss" the zombie. In other words, some random grass tanked and stopped the momentum of the sledgehammer swing. This is very frustrating as a sledgehammer user because at lower levels, each swing connecting is the difference between life and death - it uses up a lot of stamina. Just modify code so that sledgehammer swing hits everything in its path. There also seems to be some issues with hitboxes because often times when i'm standing right next to zombie and swing it misses. Maybe its just lag, but have seen many people online complain about wonky hitboxes

 

Zombies can hit you from far away. I typically run in, hit the zombie and then backpedal out. With the nerfing to backpedaling this is tougher, and sometimes I do a run, hit, turn, and run instead. Either way, the zombie attack animation will show and still connect and even though I've created a ton of space. Maybe this is lag, but again ive noticed other ppl online such as reddit complain about the hitboxes being wonky. My guess is that the game code does a check initially at animation startup if player is close to zombie, and if so, apply damage to player. i'd recommend adding some startup delay to the check, so that the proximity check shouldn't happen until the part of the attack animation that looks like it would actually apply damage has occurred.

 

Everything causes bleeding. This is probably the worst issue. I could even live with the first two issues would be fine if it weren't for this. Everything makes you bleed. I'm not sure what the design rationale behind this was. Bleeding mechanic was fine as was in earlier patches, but after a17, even in full heavy armor, maxed out heavy armor perk, pain tolerance, simply being tickled by a zombie results in bleeding. Its a very annoying mechanic, and at lower levels when I don't have an aloe vera farm yet, i simply choose to suicide and take the death debuff, because it lowers my max HP so much its not worth it stay alive and wait for healing factor to slowly regen everything. With lack of healing items in medical cabinets and the usual areas you'd expect them, yeah suicide is a better option. Its not a good design option. In previous patches, only certain zombies caused bleeding, and it made the situation more tense when you saw a pack of dogs. You'd also carefully prepare and plan. Now, since everything causes bleeding, its just incredibly annoying and it makes you literally want to commit suicide (in game). Not a good experience.

 

Multiple possible fixes. Have pain tolerance or heavy armor perks also lower bleeding % or bleed amount. Have some way for player to mitigate it, and be able to plan ahead. Or simply revert bleeding to what it was in A16, which was perfect. To satisfy the whiners about how ez the game is, have insane difficulty bleeding do 10x the damage, 10x the duration, and make bandaids take longer to apply. that should stop their whining.

[sadpickle]

You can craft bandages with cloth to cure the bleed debuff. As for combat, this has been discussed before. The current combat system uses a raycast for everything, including melee. Collision is not modeled in any way. This makes the sledge a trap of a weapon. Ditch it and use the iron club, which is superior to almost everything.

[Roland]

The sledgehammer is awesome.....on stationary targets like safes and vault doors.

[Khulkhuum]

Combat mechanics are the way they are and sadly unless TFP considers changing how it works, we won't see hitting everything in the swing path or something. This also applies to hitboxes, i know it's a dumb way to answer, but you have to acknowledge how it works and adapt.

 

Concerning Zombie attack range - i don't have a problem with backpedaling slowly before a zombie and hitting it with a weapon as it tries to advance against me. Sure there sometimes i can get hit, but it's only due to me not having the proper distance. I'd compare it to learning to parry in Souls games. At the beginning you think it's hard, but when you get it how to do, it's not only easy, but also very helpful in fighting.

 

Cure for bleeding is a bandage. Although i did notice that many more times i get bleeding, it's not like every hit does it. I'm sure you're seeing it a lot more (as if seeing 5 in 10 compared to 1 in 10 in the past), but it simply requires you to be prepared.

[fishjie]

You can craft bandages with cloth to cure the bleed debuff. As for combat, this has been discussed before. The current combat system uses a raycast for everything, including melee. Collision is not modeled in any way. This makes the sledge a trap of a weapon. Ditch it and use the iron club, which is superior to almost everything.

 

i carry cloth bandages - that's not the problem. the problem is bleeding reduces your max HP. so if you take one too many bad engages and also sleeper zombies not fully spawning when you step into a POI resulting in them spawning next to you - made worse by the hitboxes - you will have only a few handful of HP left. at that point, you could wait for healing factor to heal back your max HP which takes forever, or just kill yourself and start over with slightly worse stats. eventually with living off the land plus finding some aloe vera seeds its a non issue, but at the start to early midgame, the bleeding mechanic is beyond frustrating. even at endgame its still a PITA. rather have just a few zombie types that cause massive bleeding but have them be rare, than have all zombies cause bleeding

 

also for me, sledge hammer is the best end game weapon, once my char is fully specced i can clear any POI without using any ammo except maybe a few steel arrows if i feel like it

[myrkana]

i carry cloth bandages - that's not the problem. the problem is bleeding reduces your max HP. so if you take one too many bad engages and also sleeper zombies not fully spawning when you step into a POI resulting in them spawning next to you - made worse by the hitboxes - you will have only a few handful of HP left. at that point, you could wait for healing factor to heal back your max HP which takes forever, or just kill yourself and start over with slightly worse stats. eventually with living off the land plus finding some aloe vera seeds its a non issue, but at the start to early midgame, the bleeding mechanic is beyond frustrating. even at endgame its still a PITA. rather have just a few zombie types that cause massive bleeding but have them be rare, than have all zombies cause bleeding

 

also for me, sledge hammer is the best end game weapon, once my char is fully specced i can clear any POI without using any ammo except maybe a few steel arrows if i feel like it

 

 

 

Bandages return max hp and bc are relatively easy to make since theres stuff made of cloth everywhere.

[ricp]

Combat mechanics are the way they are and sadly unless TFP considers changing how it works, we won't see hitting everything in the swing path or something. This also applies to hitboxes, i know it's a dumb way to answer, but you have to acknowledge how it works and adapt.

 

This.

 

While I don't have intimate knowledge of the code, it's clear the melee combat is built around raycasting. I'm guessing this is more down to the ease at which it can be done in Unity, and to be fair it's worked pretty well for the most part. If you were to change it to something that took into consideration the swing mechanic, so damage is inflicted on any object within the arc of the swing, you would face quite a few problems - some of those technical, some aesthetic.

 

Technically the most obvious thing would be the slowdown due to the complexity of the maths compared to the somewhat easier maths of whether the cursor is positioned over opponents hit box. This isn't limited to just the player either as currently you only ever hit one zombie at a time, while an arc would need to involve multiple targets which in itself may conflict with the current collision routines.

 

Now I should say at this point that I've no insight into the actual code TFP use, albeit presumably a lot of it is core Unity, I could be talking complete mince here. I'm sure I'll be corrected soon enough if I am!

 

As for the aesthetics? Think of games that calculate damage via a swing arc, and you can sometimes end up with combat feeling what I can only describe as "slushy" as opposed to the very direct feedback you get now. I played Conan Exiles fairly recently and it's a prime example, you can hack and slash the enemy but the weapon (say a sword) just slices through things without any real feedback. It almost feels like you and the opponent are not "in the same space". It's a hard one to describe and this post is already far longer than it should be but I think most will get what I'm aiming at.

 

 

TL;DR?

 

As Khulkhuum says, there's a reason for the way it is, and really it's not as bad as some other FPS games' melee implementation. Careful what you wish for. Melee is very important in 7DtD, so it would be a shame to see that altered for the worse.

[ricp]

Oh, and btw.. I just don't get the love for the sledgehammer as a melee weapon. Just too big, too slow, too cumbersome - even with all the perks. I get it packs a punch, but then so does a decently modded reinforced club. Great for YT streams as it's classic "box office" fair, but for me I just find it a bit too gauche.

[jdm311]

I love the ragdoll animations after teeing up some zombs with the sledge. Truly gratifying and stress relieving.

[Khulkhuum]

Oh, and btw.. I just don't get the love for the sledgehammer as a melee weapon. Just too big, too slow, too cumbersome - even with all the perks. I get it packs a punch, but then so does a decently modded reinforced club. Great for YT streams as it's classic "box office" fair, but for me I just find it a bit too gauche.

 

I'm a fan of fast weapons myself. Even in souls games i always preferred using quick weapons paired with dodging. In the hundreds of hours of gameplay and many playthroughs i perhaps once or twice made a tanky tank. There is a peculiar fun in it, but i just prefer being able to react fast to enemy movements, even if i have to chip their health slowly.

[ricp]

I love the ragdoll animations after teeing up some zombs with the sledge. Truly gratifying and stress relieving.

 

Have you watched any Partially Royal YouTube vids recently. He was pretty whiny about A17 when it first came out (to be fair he was getting massive lag) but it seems he's getting back into it now. His recent playthough has seen him max out on the melee stats and is wiping the floor with zombies. As I say, it's all box office stuff and perfect for those chilling and watching some YouTube.

 

 

I'm a fan of fast weapons myself. Even in souls games i always preferred using quick weapons paired with dodging. In the hundreds of hours of gameplay and many playthroughs i perhaps once or twice made a tanky tank. There is a peculiar fun in it, but i just prefer being able to react fast to enemy movements, even if i have to chip their health slowly.

 

Totally agree, there is just something more elegant about bobbing and weaving and delivering several well timed blows than going in "all balls out" swinging like you are a pendulum.

 

There is something else that I don't like about the sledgehammer as melee and it's this; I wonder how many people have actually picked one up, let alone tried to swing it. It's completely unrealistic (yeah, I know horror zombie game being unrealistic, go figure) to think anyone could swing it more than twice or three times without needing to rest. Yes, you can get lightweight ones, but that goes against the physics behind using it in the first place.

[FA_Q2]

Oh, and btw.. I just don't get the love for the sledgehammer as a melee weapon. Just too big, too slow, too cumbersome - even with all the perks. I get it packs a punch, but then so does a decently modded reinforced club. Great for YT streams as it's classic "box office" fair, but for me I just find it a bit too gauche.

 

Crowd control.

 

You can disable a dozen zombies beating at your door with a singe swing - this can be invaluable of horde night.

[ricp]

Crowd control.

 

You can disable a dozen zombies beating at your door with a singe swing - this can be invaluable of horde night.

 

You can disable one zombie, not a dozen. Every single person I've seen trying to use a sledgehammer during the horde has ended terribly. It's stamina use and swing delay makes it a very unsuitable horde weapon. You could perhaps mitigate that by playing with a squad but even then you'd be relying on your friends to be using other weapons to make up your shortfall.

[Khulkhuum]

I think what FA_Q2 refers to is one of the skill upgrades which makes hitting one zombie damage the others. There's surely something like that or similar, but don't remember exactly.

[FA_Q2]

You can disable one zombie, not a dozen. Every single person I've seen trying to use a sledgehammer during the horde has ended terribly. It's stamina use and swing delay makes it a very unsuitable horde weapon. You could perhaps mitigate that by playing with a squad but even then you'd be relying on your friends to be using other weapons to make up your shortfall.

 

No, you can disable all of them. Heavy metal effects nearby targets as well - even if you hit a wall. It is EXTREMELY effective when they start to overwhelm you.

[ricp]

Edited: Ignore this reply, it was utter mince, I've addressed it in my next post.

[Auner]

Got to say that doesn't tie into my experience of it. If there is a line of zombies waiting to get in a door and you swipe, it only registers the hit to one of them not many (this was my initial post regarding how raycasting has determined how melee is done).

 

There is nothing in the Heavy Metal perk that would suggest otherwise: https://7daystodie.gamepedia.com/Heavy_Metal_(Perk)

“You have a 100% chance to knock down enemies with heavy weapons, 60% for power attacks to knock down nearby foes.”

I think it speaks for itself on the AoE. I’d be happy if they just added a lunge mechanic. Double tap a direction and the player lunges in that direction (with damage bonuses on forward lunges). This reduces backpedal spam, and can be added to zombies so they can lunge as well. Hitting crouch while sprinting should do a slide too. 😎

[ricp]

“You have a 100% chance to knock down enemies with heavy weapons, 60% for power attacks to knock down nearby foes.”

I think it speaks for itself on the AoE. I’d be happy if they just added a lunge mechanic. Double tap a direction and the player lunges in that direction (with damage bonuses on forward lunges). This reduces backpedal spam, and can be added to zombies so they can lunge as well. Hitting crouch while sprinting should do a slide too.

 

I'm going to hold my hands up here, I'd misread it with the second value (the one about nearby enemies) being for exploding heads - which I think is a different perk. So apologies to both you and FA_Q2.

 

I still contend that it's not the ideal weapon for horde, especially for a SP horde - in fact I doubt anyone could survive using melee alone from the 3rd or 4th horde.

 

However seeing as I am unable to read properly, I should probably step back from making any assumptions!

[FA_Q2]

I'm going to hold my hands up here, I'd misread it with the second value (the one about nearby enemies) being for exploding heads - which I think is a different perk. So apologies to both you and FA_Q2.

 

I still contend that it's not the ideal weapon for horde, especially for a SP horde - in fact I doubt anyone could survive using melee alone from the 3rd or 4th horde.

 

However seeing as I am unable to read properly, I should probably step back from making any assumptions!

 

Melee, heavy metal and 2 electrical wires on warrior and 32 zombies lasted over day 100 without a single fail. Last horde did fail but that is because almost the entire horde simply clipped right through my base.

 

Thought my defenses failed and then realized there were no holes in my wall. There is noting else (because explosives are borked atm) that can handle a dozen zeds at a time. Have not had any luck with molotovs though that is because my base design does not give me a good opening to use them with.