A meta-discussion about modding

[Kubikus]

That's probably an internal, yet to be exposed xml. I'll muck around with uabe or the other extractor when I get ready to start medieval book 2, and see what's new.

In regard to the meta discussion about modding, Guppy, if I may make a comment, only with, of course, your gracious permission, I still believe that those advanced tricks that only a dedicated few know about are an undesirable approach. The divine devs should make everything accessible through XML edits. And I don't really understand why they don't. Why, for example, 1 block ingress or backward sprinting speed is not accessible through XML edits. Seems fairly easy to make that happen, instead of grabbing a value from over there, grab it from over here.

[Guppycur]

In regard to the meta discussion about modding, Guppy, if I may make a comment, only with, of course, your gracious permission, I still believe that those advanced tricks that only a dedicated few know about are an undesirable approach. The divine devs should make everything accessible through XML edits. And I don't really understand why they don't. Why, for example, 1 block ingress or backward sprinting speed is not accessible through XML edits. Seems fairly easy to make that happen, instead of grabbing a value from over there, grab it from over here.

 

Likely, and I'm just guessing, is that a lot of these internal xmls are just a few lines long, they're scattered across different .asset files, and I suspect different devs throw them in there with out guidance, so the reason is probably something as banal as it would be more work than worth it to expose it.

 

Yes. I would LOVE for them to be sitting in a folder, but alas...

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

In short, they're not hiding it because they're directed to, they're just not exposing it because they weren't directed to.

[Kubikus]

See, that would be great, and that's why I humbly believe that modders should always push for great things to be vanilla or xml, instead of arguing that all is well because a dedicated few can improve a deficient feature with sophisticated methods and obscure tools that are inaccessible to the majority. Not that it's bad or anything, that advanced methods are being used, but the underlying tone surrounding that should always be "this really should be available for everyone and their mom to tweak". Right? Cuz making a great mod is not so much about technical abilities and knowledge. It's about creativity. Someone who has no knowledge of modding could make the best mod ever, just by having ideas for the gameplay, while the greatest coding wizzard might come up with some wondrous gimmicks, yet their mod might well be uninteresting. And just a collection of tech demos.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

In short, they're not hiding it because they're directed to, they're just not exposing it because they weren't directed to.

So direct them, instead of assuring them that it's fine because those few know how to access "it".

[Guppycur]

Curious why you think that very thing doesn't happen daily? (Modders pushing/directing)

[Kubikus]

Curious why you think that very thing doesn't happen daily? (Modders pushing/directing)

Because when I say that the roads should be designable, the first thing you say is that you will look into UABE. Instead of saying "yeah, this needs to be XML, c'mon Kinyajuu, make it happen!!111".

 

Or when Stompy, the professional programmer says that you just gotta learn things beyond XML and (even) SDX. Or back in the day, when Hal said he doesn't want the devs to spend time to make stuff accessible via XML, because he wants them to spend time to make stuff accessible for the professional programmers.

[Guppycur]

So, you think it's snobbery.

 

Me, I see it as choosing your battles.

[Kubikus]

So, you think it's snobbery.

You found me out.

 

Me, I see it as choosing your battles.

Doesn't seem like it, when it's used as an argument when people are upset that certain features are not vanilla or easily moddable. When, in response to people being upset, the dedicated few argue that it's possible, as long as you have superior knowledge.

 

Don't get this wrong, it's fine to say, for example "you can bring 1 block ingress back with this tool" and such. And it's great to have such tools. Still, the attitude should always be "this should be accessible for everyone".

[Guppycur]

Are you still on that? Hell man, I told you exactly what to do... I can't help it if you didn't understand.

 

At any rate, do I want every option possible to be easier to access? Absolutely.

 

Do I expect it? Hell no. Not even close. So, instead, I fight to make the SUPER hard things easier to access.

 

...do you think it's a coincidence that xpath is being used? That 3rd party models are now natively supported?

 

Devs and modders worked that crap out. Hell some modders became devs. That's how this company rolls.

 

We all fight for what we want. All part of the game.

[Kubikus]

Are you still on that? Hell man, I told you exactly what to do... I can't help it if you didn't understand.

It's simply a good example. Maybe you just cannot relate to a simple man like myself, when you say "hey, just use SDX". No, I don't. It's too big a threshold. Too steep a learning curve. I know I could learn it, but it's not relevant enough. I guess if I would learn how to use Unity and whatnot, I'd make my own game, not just tweak someone elses creative work.

 

At any rate, do I want every option possible to be easier to access? Absolutely.

Great.

 

Do I expect it? Hell no. Not even close. So, instead, I fight to make the SUPER hard things easier to access.

 

...do you think it's a coincidence that xpath is being used? That 3rd party models are now natively supported?

Oh, you did that? Noice!

 

Devs and modders worked that crap out. Hell some modders became devs. That's how this company rolls.

 

We all fight for what we want. All part of the game.

I can't really relate the term "fight" to this trivial matter, I'm more advocating for an attitude. That I don't need to reiterate, right? It's rather simple. And I'm kinda fine when the focus is not on making as much as possible accessible right now, because things change and stuff, so it might be a waste of time to work on making modding options, but once the game's gone gold, they should improve a lot of such things.

[Guppycur]

Xyth and Sphereii made it a point to make sdx more accessible to both modders and players. Not a coincidence that MANY mods converted to sdx. It's super easy to mod with, and super easy for clients to install. No accident.

 

No, I'm not directly responsible for xpath or native asset import, but I was certainly aware.

 

...see, while end users such as yourself are saying "gimme gimme gimme", and complaining how no one is helping YOU achieve YOUR goals, there are people, modders, who are rolling up their sleeves working to give everyone access to cool stuff. People writing tutorials, making videos, creating custom code to export from unity to 7days, and then writing scripts so that YOU can use them... People collaborating to learn and to share information...

 

People trying, testing, seeing what works and what doesn't, so they can share that knowledge with you in hopes you will stop being a taker, and start being a giver... People who believe in the community part of a mod community...

 

...you made fun of some of them a few posts back.

 

Shame.

[Kubikus]

Xyth and Sphereii made it a point to make sdx more accessible to both modders and players. Not a coincidence that MANY mods converted to sdx. It's super easy to mod with, and super easy for clients to install. No accident.

 

No, I'm not directly responsible for xpath or native asset import, but I was certainly aware.

 

...see, while end users such as yourself are saying "gimme gimme gimme", and complaining how no one is helping YOU achieve YOUR goals, there are people, modders, who are rolling up their sleeves working to give everyone access to cool stuff. People writing tutorials, making videos, creating custom code to export from unity to 7days, and then writing scripts so that YOU can use them... People collaborating to learn and to share information...

 

People trying, testing, seeing what works and what doesn't, so they can share that knowledge with you in hopes you will stop being a taker, and start being a giver... People who believe in the community part of a mod community...

 

...you made fun of some of them a few posts back.

 

Shame.

So this is the point where we start with the personal remarks again..? So in other words the end of your arguments..?

 

*pf*

[Guppycur]

I love how your "out" is to cry about a personal attack that doesn't exist. It's especially funny to me and all of the people in the secret "everybody but kubikus" modder elitist club that meets in the Walmart parking lot on the 3rd Tuesday of the month.

 

We have your avatar on a wall and we throw darts at it too.

 

Come on, son...

 

I hope that you get over your persecution complex and realize that 1, no one is attacking you, and 2, that no one would care enough to.

 

This is a game. This is a forum. It's the internet, so none of this is real life...

 

You mod. I've seen you do it. You're smart. I've seen you act it. So why the constant challenging? It serves no purpose, homie.

[Kubikus]

I love how your "out" is to cry about a personal attack that doesn't exist. It's especially funny to me and all of the people in the secret "everybody but kubikus" modder elitist club that meets in the Walmart parking lot on the 3rd Tuesday of the month.

 

We have your avatar on a wall and we throw darts at it too.

 

Come on, son...

 

I hope that you get over your persecution complex and realize that 1, no one is attacking you, and 2, that no one would care enough to.

 

This is a game. This is a forum. It's the internet, so none of this is real life...

 

You mod. I've seen you do it. You're smart. I've seen you act it. So why the constant challenging? It serves no purpose, homie.

Of course you're attacking me, when I say that I am not dedicated enough to roll up my sleeves, you're calling me a leech and make up tings I'd complain about and whatnot. Ad hominem at it's finest.

 

 

My (factual) argument is that the company behind the game should do the best it can to make modding convenient and accessible. Because (many) people have better things to do than learning all that stuff. If you have a number that controls backward sprinting speed, put it in a bloody xml file and let me tweak it however I want to. I don't even want to download some additional software. That's inconvenient.

 

And that has nothing to do with other modders that you go on about. What has something to do with other modders is the attitude of some of them, that it's unheard of if a person does not want to learn those sophisticated methods of modding, or if a person does not want to mod at all. Persons might just want to have some sliders in the menu to tweak their game. And that's perfectly fine. Because this is just a video game.

[TSBX]

If the devs were as draconian as you seem to imply, we would not have access to all or maybe even any of the abilities or tools we do today.

 

They ARE looking out for making the nuts and bolts accessible, and every single alpha they've given us as a community more and more to work with.

 

Is it as easy easy as sliders in a menu? No, but things that had to be modded in before are now in those menus. Blood moon horde count and airdrop markers come to mind specifically.

 

Takes time. Give it to them.

[Kubikus]

If the devs were as draconian as you seem to imply, we would not have access to all or maybe even any of the abilities or tools we do today.

I don't imply that, I clearly said this earlier today:

 

And I'm kinda fine when the focus is not on making as much as possible accessible right now, because things change and stuff, so it might be a waste of time to work on making modding options, but once the game's gone gold, they should improve a lot of such things.

What I am saying, inside the discussion that is going on in this thread, is that when there is an issue, a problem, an insufficiency, then, yes, it is great if it can be modded, it is still good if it can at least be modded with complicated methods that require a learning curve so only a dedicated few can do it. But it's nothing to settle for. It can't be said that the problem is solved when a few dedicated nerds can do it.

 

That's literally my standpoint. Take painting biomes: Now that I know how, it's easy. But why does the community have to figure out how it works? Why does the feature not already come with an explanation? "You can paint biomes, you need software X, use the pixel-brush". And yes, I do feel entitled.

 

I totally fail to understand myself or any modder as a beggar to the devs and the company. Modders enrich the game, increase the value. The company makes money off of the work of modders. So the company should do everything in their power to support modders. That should be the attitude of all modders. In my, of course and as always, humble opinion.

[TSBX]

The temporary solutions being provided are just that. A stopgap, a bandage, a placeholder until proper implementation and fixes are deployed.

 

If this was stable or Gold and a dev had not came in and said, "Sorry guys I've been swamped with other stuff, RWG will get fixed." You'd have a leg to stand on and I could at least call you Eileen.

 

Why would TFP want Joe Blow to know how to paint biomes when they can't even make sure that Joe and Co. have properly updated and cleaned files before making a bug report or following an apparent and defined structure for said report?

 

You're arguing for the sake of it, unless you are just generally pontificating, in which case you are wildly off topic and veering into telling TFP how to run their business territory, which I don't have to tell you is generally frowned upon per the forum rules.

[Guppycur]

Kub. How does anything you just said dispute my assessment of the "I want it now now now and I want it all done for me" mentality? You're better than this...

 

Pimps add features before they're ready because they know modders can't help themselves... I know for a fact the devs enjoy us figuring stuff out.

 

Yes, they do plan on providing help files, but it's not exactly a priority since the features aren't even finished yet. Common sense homie.

[Kubikus]

The temporary solutions being provided are just that. A stopgap, a bandage, a placeholder until proper implementation and fixes are deployed.

Exactly.

 

Rest of your post is deliberately "arguing" past my stance. Uninteresting.

[Kubikus]

Kub. How does anything you just said dispute my assessment of the "I want it now now now and I want it all done for me" mentality? You're better than this...

You mean this:

 

And I'm kinda fine when the focus is not on making as much as possible accessible right now, because things change and stuff, so it might be a waste of time to work on making modding options, but once the game's gone gold, they should improve a lot of such things.

And as I said, yes, I want it all done for me. But, and that is where you are wrong with your personal remarks, not by you or any other modder, but by the company that is making millions. That I am a customer of. It would be reasonable for them to provide the tools.

 

Pimps add features before they're ready because they know modders can't help themselves... I know for a fact the devs enjoy us figuring stuff out.

No problem, but if those modders then believe that it's sorta mandatory to figure stuff out if you dare to complain, that's a different story.

 

Yes, they do plan on providing help files, but it's not exactly a priority since the features aren't even finished yet. Common sense homie.

You mean sorta like this:

 

And I'm kinda fine when the focus is not on making as much as possible accessible right now, because things change and stuff, so it might be a waste of time to work on making modding options, but once the game's gone gold, they should improve a lot of such things.

[Guppycur]

You make a lot if incorrect assumptions regarding motives...

 

...not a single modder in a considerable arsenal of modders I deal with daily, feel that way.

 

They have accepted the reality that they have to figure stuff out, but then immediately turn around and share their findings.

[Kubikus]

You make a lot if incorrect assumptions regarding motives...

I don't say anything about motives, but about attitude. Mentality and mind-set might be better words for what I mean. Comments like this:

 

I've seen what tin can do with a17. He hasn't released anything yet, but it's awesome.

 

And the painting is just icing on the cake.

 

My next project is understanding gaia, to improve the process.

 

People just need to learn the new stuff, not baby whine about losing the old stuff.

 

Or this:

 

I beg to differ.

 

There are more ways than ever to mod the game, and if you really must cling to the old systems then it can be done.

 

Sure not with just an xml mod or a few sdx mods chucked together, but the sole reason I still play and mod this game is because you can essentially do ANYTHING with it.

 

 

I mean just look at medieval for a16. Many parts of that would have been considered impossible by most modders. You just need to know what you are doing

And these comments are clearly understood as counterarguments to complaints that things have been removed or don't work. And they have a sorta condescending undertone, right? , stop baby whining, just learn the stuff.

 

What if I don't want to? I know: Then I am not even a modder. -.-

 

Again, tryna understand, it's fine to great if you learn all these things and glorious if you share your findings, make tutorials, make mods for everybody to use, but you doing that is not invalidating complaints that stuff has been removed, changed, is not moddable via xml, that features are broken and so on. Right? It is, for example, valid to complain about the removal of the skill-system. That is also very good customer feedback. Whoever is upset about that removal should say so, so the company knows how much the feature was liked. Same with RWG. And when a dev drops a note that it's being worked on, you can still provide feedback about what you'd like to see, what kind of features RWG should have. What modding options would be welcome.

 

That's all I'm saying, homes.

[DUST2DEATH]

Tried it again and currently spending the first night on top of ranger station, while a friendly wolf is taking care of zombies downstairs. Works mostly fine, the loading time is obviously terrible and twice there was a freeze of two seconds, that I did not have in smaller world. Of course I'm not sitting in front of the monitor waiting for the game to start. But it's good to know that this works, and time to think about designing a map. Spawnpoint placement is finally possible, zones can be place freely. Future's looking bright, y'all better keep your fingers crossed that we get more biomes to play with. I mean - that can't be the final state, can it? Top men won't settle for five lousy biomes, right? Gais? You over there, I'm not seeing your fingers crossed, get in line, *swings whip*

 

It could be the final state. What if they expect you to, gasp, mod it?

[FastBurst]

It could be the final state. What if they expect you to, gasp, mod it?

 

DUST2DEATH you just had to go there LOL - I don't know why but I just had a flash of Steve Irwin "Crocodile Hunter" saying... "look at this sleeping grizzle bear, one of the most dangerous creatures around, one wrong move and he could kill me just like that, sleeping peaceful. Imma go poke it with a stict.... CRIKEY HE'S ANGRY SOOOO ANGRRRRRY!!"

 

[Kubikus]

It could be the final state. What if they expect you to, gasp, mod it?

If the devs themselves think more biomes would be good, I'd find such an approach unheard of, and if they really want only 5 different biomes, yet provide the option to mod in more, I'd want it to be easy and not the privilege of a few diligent learners. Particularly when it can be made easy, like, say, backward sprinting could be made a simple xml-tweak.

 

Isn't that an agreeable opinion, buddy?

 

However, considering that there really seems to be a reduction of terrain block textures + Guppy has heard something corresponding, there seems to be a technical issue. Yet, not being able to use more different terrain block would not be a reason to reduce biomes. You could just design more biomes with the same blocks. So the removal indicates that it is a) a technical problem and b) expected to be solved.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

DUST2DEATH you just had to go there LOL - I don't know why but I just had a flash of Steve Irwin "Crocodile Hunter" saying... "look at this sleeping grizzle bear, one of the most dangerous creatures around, one wrong move and he could kill me just like that, sleeping peaceful. Imma go poke it with a stict.... CRIKEY HE'S ANGRY SOOOO ANGRRRRRY!!"

 

It's funny, but you got it backwards: I am the Steve, the stick is mild criticism, and the angry crocodile with a built-in comic relief is a vocal minority of the modding community. But I don't blame you, when you have 1 guy over there and a couple on the opposite side, what's really going on can easily escape the untrained eye.

[DUST2DEATH]

I'd want it to be easy and not the privilege of a few diligent learners. Particularly when it can be made easy, like, say, backward sprinting could be made a simple xml-tweak.

 

Isn't that an agreeable opinion, buddy?

 

However, considering that there really seems to be a reduction of terrain block textures + Guppy has heard something corresponding, there seems to be a technical issue. Yet, not being able to use more different terrain block would not be a reason to reduce biomes. You could just design more biomes with the same blocks. So the removal indicates that it is a) a technical problem and b) expected to be solved.

 

 

I think the devs are going to do what they are going to do.

I think that those that want to do something, or have the inclination, will learn what is necessary to do what it is they want to do.