ShellHead

New burnt model looks great!

Yeah, though i think in most situations not knowing exactly what zed got killed by who wouldn’t mess up anyone too badly. My understanding of the problem was that it wasn’t the knockdown itself that was at issue but rather zeds getting flung back into the horde via the repulser mod for the baton, which made them easy to lose track of when things got hectic. Knockdown from pretty much every other source is much easier to keep track of, the only exception might be the AR book bonus but that still essentially boils down to “keep shooting in that direction” so i doubt that would trip anyone up. as an aside, i really like the idea of zeds getting knocked down when critically injured to trick players into thinking they’re dead, i hope that is actually a mechanic.

INT’s progression perks are genuinely fantastic but its associated weapons are too reliant on the perks to be consistently useful. You’re best served by trying to get a high quality weapon from another perk line via the traders, which is something no other stat has to do. The issue isn’t that INT doesn’t have access to good weapons, since anyone can use any weapon they obviously do, the issue is that if the INT player wants to focus on their associated weapons over other perk’s weapons, they will be putting themselves at a disadvantage in comparison. The power allocation for the turrets and the stun baton should be shifted back towards the base weapons and away from the perks so that INT players can use them more effectively earlier and so that non-INT players have a reason to pay attention to them. INT is clearly designed to be centered on progression at the cost of combat capabilities and self-sufficiency, which is a really interesting playstyle but i think the weapons are still undertuned even with the reduced focus on fighting taken into account. Additionally remember that with the further refinement of the gamestage mechanics, the traders are going to be less powerful and as a result INT will have substantially reduced ability to get powerful gear quickly. So while INT maybe overpowered now, that may completely change with A20 and as such should be rebalanced with the understanding that it is benefiting from a temporary situation.

I knew that the xp popup told the player, i was more referring to the allies but if you all haven’t had problems with it then it’s probably not a serious issue. I’m all for making the game as atmospheric as possible, i just wanted to make sure that it wasn’t going to cause problems that might keep some really cool ideas (e.g. the stun baton) out of play, especially the spheres of play it would be the most interesting and fun in. But it seems like that’s not the issue i thought it was.

In multiplayer it is, you’re not going to be able to control the zeds that tightly and allies won’t know if a zed is dealt with. That’s my only point, the other players are not going to want you to take a weapon who’s major benefit is crowd control if it makes their job of killing zeds harder.

You do realize that makes the stun baton a liability in hordes, yes? Which means its use is going to be restricted to solo and most likely POIs exclusively. And I sincerely doubt suspense is the first thing on people’s minds in the middle of a late game blood moon horde.

It does have the problem of making the stun baton’s crowd control effect more of a drawback when things get hectic, which is when cc is supposed to be the most useful especially in group play. I think people would prefer surprises to be “were there always 4 demolishers there?” As opposed to “did my teammate actually kill that zed or just knock it over?”

Last i had heard the electrocution bonus was bugged so that the duration was stuck at 4 seconds when it should be 8 fully perked, which would give it more damage and be more useful against tougher zeds than the junk sledge. The baton is supposed to be more of a self-defense weapon than a zed killer but it does need a bit of tuning. They should make it a bit clearer whether a zed is dead or ragdolled, maybe just make zeds have an electric particle effect? The stun baton perk could use a bit of love tbf, though it’s far more meant to keep zeds away while the turret does its job. Clubs are pretty powerful at the moment and are completely focused on zed killing with no other features so they’re going to suit your needs better, but i think what would help solve this is a club nerf along with buffing the baton, knives, and spears.

An uncut version is pretty unlikely, given that in order to make that TFP would have to: 1, change all zombie textures to not show blood or gore (which might require changing the model entirely); 2, find a way to make the dismemberment mechanic visible while not displaying gore. that’s a really tall order for a game that was always intended for an M rating.

Eh, let them i’m more comfortable with this over the thermite as ammo for a taser, it’s more aesthetically consistent with the mad scientist sensibility of the INT tree.

Exactly, if it’s not consistently available then it can’t be fully factored in to balance analysis. I was referring to equipping a rifle when the hordes were out of reach or when dealing with a cop zombie, in the next section I mentioned the unique benefits of the turrets and how that should be factored in. The point was that any stat build can use unperked weapons to fill holes in their tactics so the argument that INT specifically is fine because it can do that isn’t satisfactory by itself, which is why i said the point of comparison should be a fully perked set of turrets with an unperked weapon vs another stat’s fully perked weapon. the reason I’m suggesting perked turrets is because the Robotics Inventor perk provides huge benefits to the turrets which, given the initial weakness of them, lets them be more accurately compared to other weapons. It’s clear that the INT tree’s combat capabilities are weaker than the other trees and it’s also clear that direct combat isn’t intended to be INT’s strong suit, the question is are INT’s capabilities appropriately weaker or are they overly weak?

It’s now used to make the impact cushioning armor mod

I like the functionality of Secondary Ammo 2 but i don’t like the thermite trapping so instead i’m thinking of overcharged taser darts: the overcharged darts detonate on impact instead of shocking, which is why the effect changes from electrocution to armor stripping as the explosion is too small for an AOE effect but powerful enough to shred armor as well as ignite the target via the perk’s special effect.

Looking at the chart, it looks like AGI and PER need a buff independent of STR and FOR needing nerfs. i’m a little hesitant to say INT is in a good place because the AOE effect is from a consumable and not inherent to either the weapon or a mod. i get the argument that INT can just use other stat’s weapons without needing the perk and i agree with it. That being said, that’s true of every stat, not just INT. STR can use rifles to cover their shotgun’s lack of range, PER can use pistols for more flexibility, etc. So that argument doesn’t work so well by itself for saying INT is in a good place out of hand, you would have to make the argument that a fully perked set of turrets + an non-perked weapon is equivalent (taking into account the non raw dps benefits of the turrets and the reduced combat focus of the INT tree) to a fully perked ranged weapon of another perk, which i’m not really convinced of at the moment.

Hazmat headbutt, adding 0% infection chance but a higher stun chance would be super funny

I wonder if we’ll be getting new perk books? Knives don’t have a specific one to themselves (night stalker kind of affects them but not as its main focus) and sledgehammers don’t have any.

That seems pretty reasonable, pick the 2 main stats that you find the most fun then grab the QoL perks from the rest of the trees. With grandpa’s forgettin’ elixir you can afford to have players not get 100% of the perks so I wouldn’t be against this, though i think rebalancing would be in order.

Don’t get me wrong, this is absolutely not criticism of TFP i think they’ve been doing an amazing job. i was speaking in broad terms about developing with modding in mind and the potential dangers of such, i do not believe that TFP has fallen into any of those pitfalls and have been in fact handling it admirably.

Yeah, you’ve been doing a good job with that. I meant in a general sense, for anyone who wants help development of the games they love. that’s what i tried to do with my suggestion as well.

I completely agree, modders shouldn’t be relied on (not that i think this is in any way the case here, i mean in general terms), they can bring in new and interesting ideas but they’re doing this for fun and to make the game fit their own idea of what it should be, so everything they add has to be taken with a substantial grain of salt. They are not developers and they aren’t in the actual dev’s heads so they don’t know what the devs are actually going for. If modders want their ideas considered for integration into the base game, they have to put the effort into trying to understand what the devs are trying to do with the game and add something that would genuinely help them, obviously you don’t have to be psychic but you should at least try to meet the devs where they’re at.

I mean, yeah of course meme mods are going to break immersion and would never ever be added to the vanilla game. i’m talking more about quality mods that are genuine expansions of the game that represent distinctly different ideas for what the game should be. Just because fans want something doesn’t mean adding it to the game is a good idea, especially if it’s just going to be thrown in and not properly integrated.

@Adam the Waster I see where the wires crossed: you’re talking about mods as adding complexity to 7d2d, i was referring to mods as taking the game in different directions. I was making the point that they had a core idea for the game that required a fair amount of wrangling and so adding more different directions would make dealing with them impossible, not that the existing systems shouldn’t be made deeper. Complexity is good but only if it works to enrichen and clarify the game as envisioned, if it muddies the concepts you have to really consider if it’s something you want to add.

100% agree. Everyone who has an opinion on what 7d2d should be (modders, streamers, forum dwellers, etc) has their own vision of what the game is, and that gets incredibly hard to sift through to find suggestions and ideas that would actually align with TFP’s vision of 7d2d. So it’s significantly simpler for them to just focus on what they want the game to be and let popular ideas bubble up to their attention and decide if it would work well with the game as they envision it. otherwise you get an incredibly confused game because it’s trying to be everything to everyone, zombie survival crafting tower defense fps is a huge amount to wrangle as it is.

Roadside picnic crossed with national lampoon’s vacation, certainly would be a new take on zombies

Use a Gyrocopter and blast in through the ceiling!