[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

6 hours ago, Ouch Quit It said:

I always said the final quest would be to build the copter and fly away......fading out......fade in 7DtD 2

 

That makes a lot of sense both as a great game device and a segway to Part 2.   It should be something a late game player would be hard pressed to make (or find the rare parts) and not just a gyrocopter.

 

Wait! was it you that suggested that the parts/equipment needed for the plane be within the POI itself?

Just image, most people in the area trying to flee via the airport... thousands and thousands of people, now zombies!

The player will spend DAYS trying to find all the parts (locations are never the same) while fighting off what seems to be endless waves of zombies.

Maybe with the Duke and his elite guard after you (they want to leave and leave you behind!

 

Ah yes, it would be one for gaming history! 

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I don't say anything is impossible. I say it is normally far outside the realm of an indy game to have a foolproof AI. Players will usually find ways to exploit the AI, be it zombies (what we originally talked about) or bandits. Especially in a game where you can change the world freely to confuse the AI.

 

I really don't know what Faatal will make bandits do, or what some modder might do. I don't have the expectation of seeing the bandits act like in a team shooter that cost 80 Mio. to develop and has the advantage of a fixed terrain. But if it happens, I won't protest.

 

I am merely critizising how you look down on the "simple" zombie AI. It is far from simple to program it. And the other thing is that it should be exploitable to an extent. That is part of the fun for a new player (and even some veterans) to find new ways of making the zombies run into their doom. And sometimes die because the foolproof plan didn't go well when the player was too late opening the bridge.

 

Yes, I want zombies to follow clear rules for the most part. That is part of the tower defense genre that you have attackers who follow certain rules. And I want to optimizise your defenses according to these rules. How can I build an interesting "tower" if I don't know well before the attack how the attackers will react?

 

 

 

 

Tell me what you want the zombie AI to do if a bridge on the current path it tries to get to the player is closed and a different bridge is opened?

 

I didn't say anything about a foolproof AI (it's that "all or nothing" you have).

Also, I don't look down on the current AI (that's your strawman on what I'm trying to do)

 

I guess some lore on what the blood moon really is would be helpful, but missing that...

As zombie vision should be very poor to non-existent (it's the first sense that goes when people are dying) some zombies might go to the new bridge if its close.  Most would become enraged and attack the first bridge area for a while.  The blood moon might be goading (and/or guiding) the primitive "lizard brain" of the zombies to attack certain areas.

 

If the Blood Moon is an Intelligence that's trying to kill the player, the zombies might dig under the building as well.  But it's a game, so FUN must always win.

SO, with each bridge switch fewer and fewer zombies would go and just rage attack the walls.

 

Late game most people have literal tons of ammo.  I always thought BM hordes were to sink some of the extra ammo away from the players.

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Bobby Lee 298 said:

tier 6 stuff should be craftable only  Cough Cough imo

 

Finding tier 6 weapons makes more sense as the player would need machinery at the level of late game ECO (survival game) to even have a chance at making one. 

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

3 minutes ago, Doomofman said:

Don't suppose there's any chance A21 Exp is being aimed at the Steam Spring Sale? 🤔😋

 

It would be good for the business side of TFP of course.  I might be influenced by wanting it to happen then, but there's no word on Dev streamers yet.  So unlikely.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

I should add that for bandits, the first layer of the "AI" would be something like this after they spot the player:

<Seek Cover><Shoot><Begin moving toward player><Begin moving around flank of player>

 

These events could be modified by the player:

<Shooting and missing>.

<Shooting and hitting>.

<Running away>.

<Charging>.

Ect.

 

So these player events can modify the Bandits subsequent actions or emotes even.   Not the easiest thing, but certainly not impossible.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

12 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

What you call simplistic AI behaviour is basically what 99% of all games in history had. Even in science you will find very few expert systems that had the capability to learn. Only when neural networks became really powerful in the last few years learning became common as the basic principle of creating a neural network AI. BUT even the typical neural network AIs usually don't learn with each interaction anymore. After they have learned from millions of examples taken from the internet they are fix and do not learn anymore.

 

You may have seen game AIs that have a few ways to react to a players strategies, but there is no learning involved, those are almost always lists of actio->reactio and if you can find a loop you can exploit you can outmaneuver those AIs just as well as the AI in 7D2D

 

 

You're an all or nothing kind of guy it seems, when a simple percental can create many responses to the same event/situation.   Enough that would turn the current mind-numbing and endlessly repetitive reactions into something more interesting plausible. 

 

Adding just one more layer of sub-responses with conditions or from other events and you have an "AI" that bandits could be very interesting and seem realistic enough (depending on programmer imagination of course).  

 

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Huh? I don't know how you define "adapt" here, or if you are still playing A16? In A16 the AI was simple and at most "adapted" to the players position. After that the AI very much adapts to the players constructs. Build a pathway and they will recognize and follow it.

It even dynamically adapts to changes. Open a door or close a bridge and their approach may change. Even when they destroy some essential blocks by chance that might make a stairway out of a wall they WILL adapt to that new situation.

 

By adding and removing one block (a method) you can have the zombies forever moving down one path or another.  The zombies will never adapt to this infinite loop.  That is just the easiest to understand example I can think of.  The near infinite methods/constructs they build, to troll this simplistic AI behavior is not very interesting to me.   

I repeated what I said about player methods and constructs as I guess you misunderstood something.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

7 minutes ago, meganoth said:

In my view the complexity of 7D2D is not found in combat and if you are a player who wants a zombie shooter game you can find difficulty if you change to the right difficulty settings. But you can't find complexity because you have no interest in the complexity 7D2D has to offer. Because the complexity of 7D2D is mainly in the building part and optimized horde night defense part. And that part can be easily avoided by building a simple horde base and just use tons of ammo to get rid of the zombies or even copy some base design from the internet. It is a choice and by offering this choice 7D2D gains a lot of flexibility. But with flexibility comes the choice to avoid the difficulty and the complexity. 

 

 

The zombie AI does not adapt to the players constructs or methods and so it's simple.    One can enjoy that, I guess, but for me I like to let the zombie AI have a chance.  

 

I'm hoping that the raiders AI has several AI paths based on players actions.  That it (the AI) can have some raiders do one method (ie Hide) if shot at, while others will Shoot at the player, approach the player/ out flank the player.  Even "calling for help" by firing a flare gun if the player is "Rambo" would be great. 

You could layer that behavior with how much damage each Raider has recieved.

 

Fatal has something not quite that much I heard but maybe could be a A24-A26 thing?

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

26 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

 

But the original point was: is 7D2D a complex enough game? Matt115 thinks it's not.

In my opinion, however, simple or complex is irrelevant; the real question is: is it fun for you?

 

I agree.  Complexity can actually be a hindrance to enjoyment for the average gamer.

For example, Paradox gaming makes games that are FAR from any point and click games.  They are also not popular for the average gamer.  Complex games are a niche.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

With the small amount of information I have, A21 will be more satisfying than A20.

 

1) Getting to late game, alive, in A21 will be more challenging and so for me, more fun.

2) A "learn by" system that makes more sense than A20's learn by <upgrading vast concrete buildings> will help with challenge/emersion.

3) "Testimonies" of trustable people who have played A21 gives me confidence that A21 will be well worth the wait!

 

For the (normally) thinking people in this forum that complain about A21, I believe it's mostly misplaced frustration that it is taking longer than average.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

IDK, I kinda make my own "content".

-Will I be Super Soldier and tear through the wasteland like a CAT 5 hurricane or die trying?

-Will I be very careful not to get a cut or scratched because of deadly infections?

-Do I make a "Fortress of Doom" or go from poi to poi like a vagabond?

 

There are other more subtle preconceived ideas that sometime pop into my head while the game is loading.  

Getting these at least semi-fixed in my brain, paint the game for a good RPG event! 

 

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

1 hour ago, Old Crow said:

 

Yeah, it was pretty... crappy.

 

I did some research on that and found that Pee-pee and poo-poo are great for plants.  Pee from one person can restore about 70% of what that same person eats from the ground.  Poo-poo on the other hand (NO, don't pick it up!  Drop it!) is a bit dangerous and maybe is what is done to/for a "Fallow field" (something they did back in the old days). 

 

So 7D2D was actually an educational piece of software!

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

20 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Nah...instead we'll be removing empty toilet bowls.

 

I'm for that!  Just leave the "Toilet Gun" clean and dry on the ground.

Early game, I almost squeal with joy when I find one!  

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

13 minutes ago, DuHast_Play said:

it would be interesting if they added a zombie spitting some kind of sticky goo. So that it does not cause damage, but significantly slows down. But about zombies with a wrench also sounds interesting) and it seems to me that zombie clowns are needed ...

The airship seems like overkill to me. Here I would like to see more functioning transport and an adequate helicopter in the game.

 

I like your ideas.

With the Airship, it's just a joke really.  They already tried making an Airship, but like the behemoth, the game engine didn't work well with large objects.  Maybe someday it will.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

19 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I don't know if they will blow minds or not but there are few things that haven't been mentioned that I know of that are coming in the update. There are some surprises in store to be sure.

 

-A Motorboat has not been mentioned!

Of course, it's needed to travel to the other islands!

 

-A Radio has not been mentioned.

This is to listen in on Bandit plans!

 

-AIRSHIPS HAVE been mentioned, but maybe you didn't notice.

Launch your trained commando bears from ziplines and watch as they smite and bash those evil Bandits!!

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

7 hours ago, Ouch Quit It said:

Coughs * Airport POI * Coughs

 

A major airport POI quest would be similar to clearing a small city, all at once!  It could be a tier 6+ quest.

 

It could (should?) be on a separate map and be the final quest that possibly ends 7D2D part 1 and opens into Part 2 (the player flies a 747, loaded with supplies, to their "Final Destination"...  Part 2.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

54 minutes ago, Lostyouthkhat said:

Yea i feel so too. The only thing that is preventing me from having really long playing streaks is that i start to feel lonely at one point. The traders dont feel like a lifelike npc, so its not really helpful. I am sad there are no friendly npcs planned, that would make the game a lot better than it is now. (But i still like it very much) It would add some kind of realism to the whole world since merchants normally dont need just one customer that buys their stuff haha. And the airdrops show, that there should be more people still alive. Hopefully a mod will provide us one day with an npc settlement you can visit.

 

I thought I read that the player will be able to join the White River Band (the plane people) at some future release.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

1 hour ago, kexes said:

 

Some of the POIs still not involved in quests. Otherwise in this case, if you not using traders then most of the places become worthless to visit and loot.

 

Realistically POI's would not respawn with stuff (at least useful stuff) in a situation like the player is in.

But 7d2d and realism are not close friends anyway, so I don't understand why all POI's are not used. 

 

EDIT:

My two pet theories on why it could be "realistic" are:

1) The player is in a coma and will wake up for the Part 2 of 7D2D.

2) The player is in some level of Hell and must find a way out and escape.  (The POI's that the player is not sent to are potentially key to find clues on how to escape)

 

EDIT2:

-In BOTH cases, AIRSHIPS are a critical for the game!

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

11 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Steam has its Spring Sale sometime in mid March….

 

The pieces of this puzzle are fitting together, quite well.

Quite well indeed...

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

15 hours ago, faatal said:

The only changes are us using never versions of Unity in which they sometimes fix issues. We recently updated to 2021.3.16, but may end up on .18 or .19 for A21.

 

Sooo, Unity build 2021.3.19 will probably be out next month....

 

Are you trying to "Roland Hint" us?

 

I'm OK with March 30 or April 1st for a release date!! 

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

1 hour ago, faatal said:

The constant stream of DLC makes me not want to buy the game. Maybe someday if they package everything together for 20 bucks, they can have my money.

On the other hand, I find I never play the extra gameplay type DLCs in most gold editions of games I buy, as I am sick of the game by the time I finish...if I even make it to the end.

 

Paradox Gaming is similar to TFP as they both are small-ish game producers that don't take themselves too seriously.

The difference is the player base for "war games" is much smaller than RPG's.

So, in order to keep their financial heads above water they charge for some game modifications (not all of them).

 

Note: Paradox is probably more wasteful of its money too, but the people working their might have more fun (company trips to Malta, renting castles and larping)

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

5 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

as a  refresher... it was said that we wont be doing taming pets in 7dtd but... 7dtd2 may bring some new surprises and technology to allow for the newer stuff and some missed opportunities. we can only hope

New Tier 99 POI

Getting there is only half the fun!

New creature: Aliens (their special attack is too humiliating to say) 

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

From a "realism" gaming point of view:

-Lag spikes alert the player to a large group of zombies.

-Player immersion can be disrupted.

...

 

OK that's it!  Just a bit off-putting for some people but not enough to quit playing the game. 

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

Maybe a slightly modified system that reflects how reality works.

 

How do people get better at something that's physically practical?

1. Something is explained in words, actions and/or printed material. 

2. They practice it. 

3. They continue step #2 until they are satisfied.  (This could and often does last a lifetime)

 

So, in 7D2D context, this is reading a magazine and then... Nothing more?

Learn By Reading is just the first step (it unlocks the skill at 1 point for example)

Then some type of learning by practicing that eventually rases the skill to maximum.

 

Some types of practicing are semi-passive (a knight wearing 60 pounded of armor/weapons) would eventually get stronger and use to the added weight.

 

Finally, some compromise system where each level of knowledge (potential growth) would require another book/magazine.  The actual gains to the skill would require practice. 

 

 

 

 

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

16 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

Huh? A contact grenade and one shot from the rocketlauncher with a frag rocket (On Survivalist difficulty with 3 points in demolition experts and using atom junkies) and they are history. Imo the fastest way to get rid of them. Since we do that we hardly ever have one exploding,

 

Well, I stand corrected.

However for me, taking a 44 and sniping his head adds a late game thrill. 

Also I don't normally have spare points to put in explosives... although that could change. with raiders.  Then I probably will borrow your well thought out ideas.

[Alpha 21 Dev Diary]

On 2/3/2023 at 1:04 AM, Jonathan said:

Don't know if this forum is still active but I just want 3 new features. 1 While in storage have a search bar to make finding items easier. 2 New music mainly dedicated for each biome. 3 A giant zombie mob that appears only on hoard night. It super slow but has TONS of health and can easily rip down everything. Must have reach day 100 or later for it to appear. 

 

To item #3:  The demolisher is kind of like that.   You have to shoot it carefully and explosives are not good vs it.   But some huge thing that is just a bullet sponge would be kind of fun the first time or two but after that would be annoying for me.

 

I like items 1 and 2.