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Posts posted by Roland
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Oh, I know the audience. I guess I thought this thread represented an opportunity to perhaps expand that pool to re-attract "PVP" players to the game. Something about Roland's posts led me to believe that. I and others have given our reasons why singular claims +/- invulnerability is a terrible idea. I simply fail to see the attraction. All I see are pros/cons and the cons far outweigh the pros. More importantly, I see a lot of exploits and hacks that exacerbate the problem into what it is currently perceived. Instead of fixing those outstanding issues, you propose to design a system around it without addressing the underlying issues and then doing an evaluation before proposing large changes.
Just to be clear, this is not a "PVP Update" if the purpose is simply to neuter it into something more palatable for PVE players to stomach. The problem is education in this regard. If players on a raiding server knew the risks, then they play and get bent over backwards, they shouldn't be devastated. Play it or don't. There are tons of combinations of claim strengths, claim size, and partial area safe zoning via mods that already give players the ability to choose a ruleset that meets these needs. I've tossed out ideas that comport within the lore & current quest system design that can greatly improve these problems, but I feel like that was ignored.
Singular claims are awful for how that will be a great restriction to base creation. Invulnerable claims, if they are to be implemented, need to be optional. (They are useless mind you, people will still raid their crap). Implementing both would simply be just another huge degradation/nail in the coffin for anyone that enjoys raiding.
I can see the benefits of having settings that would allow PvE players to "get into" PvP on terms that would be more appealing to them. It certainly would be smart from a business standpoint for TFP to cater to that. On the other hand, I see what you are saying and I believe that I am ignorant of what truly PvP players want the more I read what you and Bloom have to say. I also think that your big three points above are exactly right for what needs to happen on a systemic level. Changing options is not enough. I see that. 30+ server support, admin tools, and PvP killing glitches and exploits definitely need to be high priority targets from the developers.
As far as options I think the key is to have as many as we can think of so that the game can easily be configured to settings that make veteran PvPers smile as well as make PvP enticing to the rest.
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It happens to me a lot.
I'd call it mad genius but I think it's actually functional retardation.
^^In that case the short bus is that way
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...but here is where you are showing your lack of knowledge (and i mean this respectfully)...
Thanks for the education.
You're right that I hadn't considered those points. I still think that for some servers and some players whose temperaments are not inclined to lead them to a "I learned something valuable and my next base will be better" moment and will instead lead them to a game uninstall action--having something to protect their base could be useful. And lets face it, there ARE some people who look at one evening's work on a base as a big deal and there are others who don't care about preserving the noobs on the server and all they live for is utter destruction.
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My logic against making it available is the pimps making it the ONLY option available.
I like options.
Since when have they done that? Are landclaims mandatory now? Can't they be removed if the server owner wants them removed? Can't their damage modifier be adjusted? I don't think anyone is calling for a change to this policy of optional claim blocks.
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I honestly don't get why getting your base destroyed isn't an expectation. Does it suck? Sure, probably... But it's one of the few things that separate 7days from a normal fps.
This is where I have to disagree with you big G
I think there are quite a lot of gamers who don't expect their base getting completely leveled as a standard of PvP. Raided? sure. Killed and robbed? Absolutely.
But once again, if you had the expectation of your base being destroyed completely and your brand of fun is to completely decimate someone else's base then you could search for a server that promoted that. You just posted that finding a server right for you is the most important thing to remember.
So really you can't be against a landclaim block as an option for servers to use if you could always find a server that didn't use them.
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Gotta disagree with ya on that one big R.
Not hugely disagreeing with me because I actually agree with the sentiment that rl considerations should not be factored in to how the game is designed. I don't want people who are offline to be 100% safe from raids any more than you do.
I do want griefing controllable.
A claimblock that is itself indestructible and can't be stolen that offers zero protection until say...20 blocks (configurable by server) are destroyed within the claim area and then when so triggered switches to 100% protection for everything in the claim area for 12 hours real time does not seem like it would stifle base raiding in the least. It would stop someone from completely destroying a base at least for 12 hours when they could then return and destroy 20 more blocks.
What would be the logic against such a claimblock being available to servers that want to use it? I can turn around the same logic all the anti-claimblock people are using: Don't like such a claimblock? Then go find a different server that doesn't use it.
Having additional destructible claimblocks could be cool because they could do different things:
+10% damage for traps
one-hit demolition of blocks in zone
increased SI in zone
extended protection zone beyond the central block
+1 healing/second within zone
faster crafting time within zone
etc.
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Posted by Roland View Post
What about a single claim block that is indestructible but needs nodes to extend its claim zone and the nodes are destructible? Then you could have different nodes that add different abilities. It would be like adding perks to your base and allow for more customization and also provide the infiltration feeling of removing layers of protection.
No no no no no!
Invulnerable claims should be a CHOICE, available to servers owners when they set up their server, NOT a fixed demand. If you make invulnerable areas you kill raiding dead, immediately. If ANYONE can tell me why server owners having a CHOICE of protection strengths based on how they want their server to be (just like it is today..........) is a BAD thing then i would really, truly like to hear your logic because I dont think you can make the case against the choice option.
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All these things should be server settings, let the players play how they WANT to.
You should always read any of my ideas as being options available to server owners. I am against a fixed ruleset that everyone must follow just as you are.
Also, it seems that people are taking "indestructible claimblock" to mean "indestructible base" and that is not what I mean. I think a claim block should be dynamic as others have mentioned so that it allows the infiltration of a base and stealing any loot found but not the complete destruction of a base.
Building an elaborate base only to have it razed to a crater is way different than building an elaborate base and a team of guys find a weakness and use it to get in and raid me. The former is what I would consider griefing unless the point of the server was to completely destroy bases and that was posted as the server rules so people would know. Everything that Poojam and Bloom have written about the fun of infiltrating and the fun of creatively designing unassailable bases can be accomplished without completely destroying someone's base. Am I wrong in my assumption that you two fellows like to raid but do not completely destroy and level bases that you raid? What would be the purpose of completely undoing someone's efforts in that way? How does such a brutal penalty promote PvP?
I'm not talking about using landclaim blocks to keep bases and loot 100% safe when I'm offline. I'm talking about a system whereby someone can't grief me by wreaking complete destruction while I'm offline. The indestructible landclaim couldn't be removed or destroyed and after a certain number of blocks had been broken in the landclaim area then it would make the rest 100% indestructible. That way people can raid but not grief.
Base building is a big investment just like character progression. Completely destroying a base would be like someone having the option to reset all your skills, wellness, and progression back to zero when they killed you. Losing that much investment might be okay for some but I'm willing to bet that for many typical players signing on to see all their work erased whether it be base or character stats would be too demoralizing to continue.
The nice thing about the indestructible claim block is you could set it to be zero so that infiltration doesn't take hours. Bases would be completely unprotected until that last block was destroyed and then the protection would go to 100% instantly and no more destruction on that base would be possible for a period of time.
Let me emphasize that these suggestions are meant as possible options that could be set server to server.
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Yea. I did that. Maybe I'm blind, and I just didn't see it in the post. But Shivan is the only one on that page that said "git gud". It looks like you paraphrased Bloom's post within quotes with your own exacerbated flavor and then chastised him for the language.
I fixed the quote to remove any inflammatory language. Now back to topic please. Seeing how threads like these have derailed into PvP vs nonPvP and hardcore vs casuals insulting each other I will not tolerate any language that is insulting or disrespectful of opposing ideas. If someone doesn't know how to disagree without being disagreeable they better not post.
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What about a single claim block that is indestructible but needs nodes to extend its claim zone and the nodes are destructible? Then you could have different nodes that add different abilities. It would be like adding perks to your base and allow for more customization and also provide the infiltration feeling of removing layers of protection.
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Did you remove a post? I don't see the source of that quote.
I wouldn't call us hardcore niche gamers. We are just playing the game exactly as it is designed.
The person you are defending is promoting the idea of neutering the game into a zero progression, protect my base while i'm at work, make me be able to defend against 4 players, eliminate the ability for advanced players to hurt me.... weird weird environment in a thread to talk about how we can make PVP better. None of these concepts are true to the scope of 7dtd, and it just comes off as noise. It sounds like polluted entitlement thinking where someone has literally gotten beat. If anything, designing a game around those ideas is catering to a hardcore niche gamer mentality.
I didn't remove any posts. If you click the little double arrow in the heading of any quote it will link you to the original post the quote is referring to.
Also I'm not defending the guy's ideas. I was simply refuting Bloom's assumption that his own particular view as he laid it out is the norm and anything else is ridiculous. That is not the same as agreeing with the other guy. I admitted that I was probably wrong about throwing out all progression and making everyone equal. I do think that some of the inequalities in the current game aren't going to work without some adjustment. Guppy mentioned wellness leading to a weak gets weaker spiral. That's one. The vertical progression is too deep in my opinion. It needs to be lessened and the speed of going from basic to maxed needs to be increased. Leveled loot just cannot work when things are competitive. The low level guy has to have a decent chance of getting a purple sniper that could possibly even the odds a bit between him and a high level player. Things like that give hope and bring excitement to new players.
I do think that many people would enjoy joining a server in progress if they can get up to speed and competitive rather quickly and have a decent chance of scavenging good loot that will help decrease the gap.
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snip
Games are meant to be fun and competitive and not necessarily a simulation of the dog eat dog world of Darwinian philosophy. The former is what the typical majority of gamers enjoy as a default version and the latter is what hardcore niche gamers enjoy by changing settings and/or modding. This is a good discussion of different ideas but it doesn't need you calling other people ridiculous or inexplicably feeling offended by someone who can't play the game as much as someone else. Keep things civil. Disagree but don't demean other ideas or your voice will go missing from this discussion.
Personally, I think you have great ideas. Now work on your delivery...
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Agree totally
Roland is wrong here, pvp has been enhanced, multiple times, by the ability to grow your character.
If you like Rolands idea then hey, why not spawn in fully geared with the best weapons and a pre built fortress cause hey! 'HARD WORKS SUCKS RIGHT'' ?
I think this is a preference thing. I will say that upon further reflection and reading I agree that a somewhat shallower vertical progression would probably be okay but I also think that there will be plenty of people who will not look at two weeks of hiding and building up before emerging to compete as something that will hold their interest. I have no idea which type of player is the majority but like Jax said you get quite a lot of PvP players across several games crying out for a more level playing field and doing away with features that create such huge margins in relative player power.
Now I get that 7 Days to Die PvP doesn't have to be like the rest and this game can have its own brand of PvP that bucks the norm and maintains a strong player progression and if I am wrong that would be a cool distinction to have and our servers will be robust with 1000s of players. But if I'm not wrong then 7 Days to Die PvP will just be a niche experience that only caters to a small segment of all PvP players and our PvP community will stay small.
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Don't force a manual unchangeable default setting on people.
ummmm.....I don't think you know these developers very well. Whatever happens, it will be able to be reconfigured.
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Uh what?
Read the thread and you will come to see that not all players have a united opinion on well....anything. I'm just trying to summarize the opinions shared. I report. You decide.
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I kind of disagree with your assessment though. I don't think pvp'ers that have stuck around on 7days want a level playing field. The game mechanics, movement, and netcode are too poor to be a great pvp game. I view pvp players that play shoot-em-ups like CS Go differently than players that play this game, Ark & Rust. The latter audience are more akin to offshoots from MMORPG's than they are round based blood bath games. Granted I've played the former competitively for years, and I'm not knocking it, but I don't want to see 7dtd turn into that. (Madmole - Stop getting ideas of copying H1Z1's king of the Hill).
I don't know. As I read through the thread getting the summary it seemed that for a PvP centered mode of play more people are wanting a much faster progression, easier building, and richer harvesting with a shorter vertical progression gap between new players and maxed out players. Bloom seems the most hardcore in wanting it to be a slow progression that takes lots of work and effort and to maintain a well-earned big advantage to longtime players. You say you agree with him 1000% but in reading some of your earlier posts brought over from the other thread and even your newer ones now you seem a bit more moderate in this area than he.
I'm willing to admit that my first post calling for removal of skills and perks and experience altogether was probably too draconian of a change but I think Bloom's stance is the other extreme and really is not going to appeal to the broader market of PvPers....yourself included going by some of your own writings.
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Well you must not be completely disagreeing with me because I mostly said what you did but in a more general way. Whether the progression is made faster or we start people at a higher point in the current progression the effect is that people get up to speed faster which was my point. I like your thoughts on the how.
Whether it should or should not be a separate mode is immaterial. It will be. There isn't much point debating that issue here. Even your suggestion of lopping off the bottom portion of progression and starting higher is not going to sit well with most PvE players and that is just one simple issue. We already have PvP servers and PvE servers and if PvP servers start using the PvP mode then I don't see any further fracturing of the player base.
Really what needs to be in place are options so that servers that do want 100% level playing field can adjust how much XP is earned and where players start and end with skills and perks etc. That way it can be anything from zero penalty for dying to losing 100 hours of grinding and building for dying or anything in between.
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@Bloom: I really wonder whether most PvPers really want what you do in regards to progression and an unequal playing field. In theory someone might say they would like the challenge of starting on a server that is already at day 100 with most others already well established but in reality people often quit a server and never return if they die enough to reduce their wellness to 70. I think you are at the hard-core end of the spectrum in this regard.
I think that there can be progression and grind to get mats but that they shouldn't be as long term and grindy as they are in the current vanilla game. Getting more resources for harvesting, and shortening the progression from low to max would be good IMO. Right now we have a lot of players reporting that they grind exclusively to get their skills up before they start engaging other players. Making it a faster journey to the point that typical players like to start actually PvPing would make the early game less of a chore before the "real playing" begins. Also new spawns could have a better chance of staying off the radar until they get up to a higher level if it doesn't take so long to get there.
TLDR: The time and effort investment for getting up to speed in terms of a base, high quality weapons/ loot, and character stats is currently too long and too grindy for mass appeal PvP.
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I will start with player progression and experience. My opinion is there shouldn't be any. Make all players maxed out on all skills and perks from day one and remove experience from the game. With that aspect of the game removed everyone will be relatively equal and there will be no insurmountable differences in strength between someone who has been on the server for weeks and a new player who just signed on. PvP worked so much better before the game introduced all the experience, skills, and perks.
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No more derailing this thread. I cleaned up all the stuff that should have been handled by pm if at all. Please always be courteous, especially when posting in someone else's modding thread and you are a modder yourself. Any further problems will be dealt with by vacations from the forums.
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Hello Survivalists,
We are trying to get things organized and could really use your help to make less work for the mod team in moving threads around. Thanks for reading this before posting if that is why you are here.
When posting in this section please use the following guidelines:
If you are posting in order to seek players or advertise your multiplayer game then please do that in the subforum for your platform. Posts like "Looking for XB1 players" should be posted in the Xbox subforum. Posts such as "Hardcore PS4 server" should be posted in the Playstation subforum.
If you have general questions or comments regarding multiplayer then those should be posted here in the general multiplayer forum even if they only concern one or the other console. Just make sure people know which one you are talking about.
If you are posting to report multiplayer related bugs then you are in the wrong section. Please go to the Console Bug Reporting Forum to report the bugs.
Thanks in advance. I hope players can find each other to play in the subforums and that the community can all gripe together about the current multiplayer limitations and dream together about the possibility of dedicated servers in the future right here in this one.
Thanks!
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Leaning. E and Q, to peek around corners. Probably only useful once stealth is in place.
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ah crap, sorry, didn't read the thread rules. I've no clue where the url link to my "dream" is, I gave up a long time ago believing the pimps looked at this thread.
Believe again. I can view on my panel exactly who has read the thread and among the list are none other than Kinyaju, Alloc, and Madmole. They lurk in Pimp Dreams.....
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"The PvP Update"
Claim Block Options
- Offline setting so that griefing and assaulting your base cannot happen unless you are online to defend
- Allow claimed area to be saved so that if your base is destroyed you can restore it to the last time you saved it
- The LCB could teleport any unfriendly player away like the trader does when the owner is offline
- Dynamic Claim Modifier that gives new players more protection and seasoned players less.
- Claim blocks should be a lot more expensive to craft
- If a base is breached the rest becomes invulnerable to prevent total destruction(griefing) of the base
- No offline invulnerability as anti-player base design is possible through creativity and experience
- Only one invulnerable claim block that dynamically increases the protection as blocks are destroyed so that bases can be penetrated but not razed to the ground
- Multiple claim blocks are necessary because part of infiltrating a base is systematically finding and removing claim blocks and part of building is extending your protected zone by adding claim blocks
Player Progression and Experience
- Reduction of the vertical difference between maxed out character and new character
- Start players higher up the progression arc to cut out the lower end grind
- No change needed in progression as hard work and time should be rewarded
- Experience should be earned for killing zombies and players
- Wellness should be able to be gained faster
- Player progression should be sped up significantly
- Reinstate static player statistics and remove skills, perks, and progression
- Keep skills and perks but give limited points to allow for some differentiation/roles
Skills and Perks
- Disallow too much compounding of advantages that create an insurmountable progression gap between high level characters and low level characters
Armor and Weapons
- Weapon damage vs players should be reduced to allow for reaction time and epic duels and gun fights.
- Auto turrets as base defense when player is offline
Zombies
- Get rid of 7 day feral hordes or at least provide the option to disable them
Loot Tables
- Rebalanced to be truly random without regard to skills or perks
- Gun parts and whole guns should be found in a wider variety of loot containers
Loot Quality
- Remove leveled loot
Airdrops
- Should be announced in chat along with location
- Should take longer to open
- Short term advantage loot
Scoreboards and Stats
- Announcements of who killed whom by what means need to appear upon a player's death
- Points awarded and tracked for player kills
- Points awarded based on relative level/gamestage of the players involved
- Show all status bars and world information on the HUD
- Tool tips and/or tutorial quests to teach new players basic PvP strategies
Building and Demolition
- Faster gathering of resources ie getting more for harvesting blocks
- Time needed to destroy protected blocks needs to be balanced
- Explosives need to be rebalanced to make them worth using relative to pickaxes and augers
- Multiple players using tools vs one block needs to be fixed/balanced
- Rebalancing needed so fists aren't a better option than tools for demolition
- Faster(cheaper) building
- No change to building and resource harvesting as PvP players appreciate the work and effort needed for large bases
Survival Elements
- Mental health added to give buffs and debuffs for killing players of unequal levels
- Remove weather survival
Game Types
- There needs to be an option that allows for factions and ways to easily recognize friends vs enemies
- There needs to be the ability to take over and control territory
- Reinstate unlimited world size
- Capture the flag
- Faction race to achieve a goal
- Declaration of war to ensure faction vs faction instead of faction vs offline player(s)
- Smaller map size to prevent avoidance
- King of the Hill mode with teleporting pole/zone your faction must control
- Hunger games
Sound
- Optimized for being able to hear realistically. Hearing someone's stomach growling from far away is not good but at the same time not being able to hear gunshots from a long distance is no good.
- Reinstate different sound for opening creative menu
- Delete all huffing and puffing and groaning and hunger pain sounds from the game
- No change to hungry sounds as players can self regulate
Spawning
- Random spawn points to prevent prisons and camping
Administration
- Admins need to have options to be able to change all aspects of the above features and settings
- Admins need to be able to teleport and be invisible and invulnerable to players
- Admins need to be able to see through the eyes of players
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Eventually, The Fun Pimps will turn their attention to PvP. Since the beginning of this game's development the main focus of balance and features has been to make it a great single player or multiplayer cooperative experience. Early on before experience and quality was introduced the game could more easily be played either competitively or cooperatively. However, as development has progressed more and more the PvP players have suffered from design choices that seriously unbalance the PvP experience.
Madmole has said that there will be a separate mode for the game that will be dedicated to PvP play. The purpose of this thread is for people who enjoy and want the game to be more attuned to the PvP philosophy to weigh in on what changes would need to be made to the current game in order to make it better for PvP.
Please no arguments or discussions on PvE vs PvP or whether the game should be designed for PvP. Please don't invite people to "go play Rust or Counterstrike". Three facts I think we can all agree upon:
1) The game in its current state doesn't work well at all for PvP
2) The game has great potential to have a robust and excellent PvP mode
3) The devs have said that creating a PvP mode is planned
So lets start from this basis and not argue about the merits of PvP in this thread.
Items for discussion that I can think of are as follows (feel free to add new items that I did not consider)
1) Claim Block functionality
2) Player Progression and Experience
3) Skills and Perks
4) Armor and Weapons
5) Zombies
6) Loot Tables
7) Loot Quality
8) Airdrops
9) Scoreboards and Stats
10) Building and Demolition
11) Survival Elements
12) Game Types
13) Sound
14) Spawning
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HOW TO: Modding & Utility Tutorials
Guide to Inserting Prefab in Game - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcRrk8WmqaM
Guide to Setting up Dedicated Server (a18) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eurh6A8VqoHow to add more zombies to the game
How to reset regions of the map
--RAT server management
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How to: Mining
Guide to Auger Mods - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj2cH-62mqc0
"The PvP Update"
in Pimp Dreams
Posted
I think a big part of the issue is the inability to walk off a major setback that many players have. Rage quitting wouldn't be so universally understood if it didn't happen. Bloom explained to me that early game bases are easily destroyed but they take no real effort and that late game bases are too difficult to destroy but they take a huge amount of effort. His perspective seems to be that building an early wood or cobblestone fort or basic underground base might just take an evening of work and so no big deal if it is destroyed because you haven't lost much at all. From his perspective that is true (because he said it) but for a lot of people losing your base completely or having it re-claimed by somebody else is too much of a loss for them to want to continue. It doesn't matter that it was only one evening's work. It doesn't matter that it would be easier for them to start over and get back up to speed on THIS server since they still have their skills and such than it would be to start over somewhere else. Their feelings have been hurt and they now hate this server and won't play on it.
Both of you have admitted that this is true because you both have stated that on well run PvP servers guys like you will raid but not destroy an early base because you don't want to drive away the new players. Well the fact is that there are PvP players that are not so responsible as you and Bloom in wanting to build a good community on your server and not make things too disheartening for the new players. In fact there are a lot of those kinds of players out there and so unless TFP puts some kind of structure in place to safeguard the early bases of these new players they are going to quit. "Players I made rage quit" is not an official stat that is recorded in the game but it is a stat that some players love to increase.
I do think that these ideas about claimblocks should be options that can be chosen by server admins so that there can be servers where raiding can occur but total base destruction cannot or as Hal suggested total base recovery is something easily accomplished.