[Tracking people around the map with spears??]

Well the QOL issue of the tracker on the spear is a bit more than simply loving it for the sake of convenience. It also constitutes a fix for the limitations of the game itself. Spears can land and fall into the mesh of the ground terrain so that it is completely invisible to the player. If the player can get close to where it is it will be automatically vacuumed up when pressing E but you have to know right where it went. The same is true for zombie bodies. The spear can sometimes completely enter a body and not be visible at all. Now on a 1 to 1 fight this isn't necessarily a problem. But when you have multiple enemies and you have three spears on your belt that you are throwing and then backing away to avoid another enemy it is easy to lose track of them and the tracking system becomes a must for regaining your spears.

 

I just don't see it as a plausible option given the current state of how terrain voxels fit together to make the player go without that feature for however long it takes for them to be able to make or find a tracker mod. Especially since such a mod would necessarily involve electronic parts and not be a primitive glue/wood/leather product.

 

Sure, I'm for complete removal of HUD displays as a challenging cinematic way to play the game. But, in for a penny in for a pound. If I'm playing vanilla and already accepting the HUD displays in the game I'm not going to say no to something that really helps spears be a viable weapon.

 

Finally, I'm sure that if such a technique became widely known its attempted use would increase. I still have doubts about the numbers for actual successful attempts there would be even if all PvPers started adopting the technique.

 

But I already mentioned it to the devs so it is up to them now how they want to proceed.

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

If they would put out updates every 3 sec. then I would 100% support them using child labor.

[Tracking people around the map with spears??]

35 minutes ago, Crater Creator said:

 

That's crossed my mind, too.  Press reload to 'pull the cord' and retrieve the spear, whether or not the cord is visible.  I'd definitely try spears again if they had a mod like that.  For that matter, the 'GPS tracker' function could be its own mod for spears, instead of all spears having it.

 

yeah but....99.9% of usecases involves throwing a spear at an NPC for which the GPS tracker works perfectly to help you retrieve your spear if you missed or if the spear goes inside the zombie or animal. Because the spear is a primitive weapon, you kind of need the tracker function on it from the very beginning and not as a mod that you may not find or be able to craft until much later. I say "must" in the sense that it is a QOL addition that you don't want to play without once having had it. I do realize that we had spears for a long time before having the tracker function for them. But there really is no going back in my opinion.

 

The problem described in this thread is going to be an extremely rare usecase in which a player doing PVP unequips his gun and loads his spear and is able to get close enough to throw it and hit the opposing player without the player realizing they've been hit so that they go back to their base unaware of being tracked. Even if the player knows they've been hit but can't remove it from their own body they can (and would) eat glass before going back to their base and reveal its location.

 

So we are talking about a slim chance of being able to stick a person in the first place and then an even slimmer chance that the person stuck doesn't know they're stuck and then the even slimmer chance that even if they do know, instead of committing suicide and respawning clear of the spear the player is going to choose to go back to their base while wearing their new body piercing.

 

I mean, I'll mention it for sure because its funny and we should be able to remove stuff that is currently impaling us but nothing can convince me that changes need to be made for this rarest of rare usecases that would hurt the QOL of those of us who use spears in their most common usecases.

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

9 hours ago, Rizno said:

 

Surely we're close enough to get exact dates by now?

 

When Shirley gets here she can tell you.

[Tracking people around the map with spears??]

Is it really that easy to tag someone with a spear in a way that makes them unaware that they have a homing beacon stuck on them so they go running to their Yavin 4 base and give away their location?

[Loot: The Inversion Principle]

My take is two-fold. First, we are not waking up on the first morning of the apocalypse. Years have definitely passed since the virus struck and the bombs came down. So the inversion principle could have already occurred as backstory to the day we call Day One. All the easily found high quality stuff has already been looted and we aren’t able to find the rare good stuff until our skill as scavengers progresses. 
 

There is no mini-game of us actually rooting around through cupboards filled with junk to find something worthwhile that others might have missed. That is all abstracted and generalized by the current system. It’s not that the cupboard only had can of Sham that didn’t go bad. It had a bunch of stuff and buried under it all in the back was that good can of food that is presented in the user interface. 

Secondly, for gameplay purposes it would be really stupid to have end game gear appear so early on. I know it would be stupid from first-hand experience during previous alpha versions where that was indeed the case. If you really want to try playing the game where any weapon could be found at the beginning just try some of the previous versions where that was possible. Maybe you’ll find it fun as everyone is different, but in my opinion, it significantly shortens the desire to play in that world and makes future looting less exciting. 
 

Granted, Alpha 19 turned out to be extremely linear but A20 fixes that with the pipe weapons and the new Lootstage that is modified by biome. 

 

[possible second site]

 

Have a cookie AndrewT....

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

*Crosses Khalagar off the list of potential babysitters...

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

8 hours ago, Lord Morphleyes said:

 

My son is scared of getting lost on a new map.  My wife is now fine with changing or staying.  

 

My son may just have to suck it up.  A 4k RWG sounds like a fun project   

 

I recommend using one of the Pregen maps. There are three and they will all be newly generated using all the A20 map generation features. Like Navezgane, they will be ready to play.

 

Navezgane has been updated some but it won't have every new POI added by A20. It is planned to get Navezgane updated with all the new POIs by A21. 

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

8 hours ago, faatal said:

8

 

Uh faatal....I think you accidentally rotated that 90 degrees by accident....

[STILL can't release A20 or even give an ETA?]

On 11/23/2021 at 8:25 PM, Sydious said:

passive aggressive sarcasm

 

What other type of sarcasm is there...?

 

[Discord Ban]

How exactly do you obviously get kicked when trying to join the 7 Days discord with a new account but not notice because you’re joining a bunch of servers so fast?  Does this really happen? 
 

I can give my condolences and my advice to…slow down? Pay attention to what you’re doing? Contact a discord moderator?

[Tracking people around the map with spears??]

Can a player not pull out a spear from their own body?  If not, THAT is the true bug. Any player who is unaware of a spear sticking into him deserves to be tracked. 

[Its Annoying That Streamers Get the Game First!]

21 hours ago, Maharin said:

I think some of you would be much happier if you just put some posters on ignore and stopped arguing with them.  Some people are just contrarian by nature and are not at all worth wasting your time on.

 

My job description prevents me from enjoying such happiness.

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

2 minutes ago, Doomofman said:

Does the drone not throw shade?

 

Okay, you might get your feelings mildly hurt.

[Unending horde]

Maybe try having everyone leave the vicinity. Get in vehicles and drive like 2 km away and see if they keep spawning. If they don't, wait until morning and then return to see if it ended or not.

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

I hope with workshop support we can add individual POI's that are rated by the community. The POI packs we have now are mostly great but there are few stinkers in the mix.

[A20 Developer Diary Discussions]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

Has he confirmed that the entire balance is directed only to the Adventurer? Show me where.

 

Balancing is done with Nomad in mind. Nomad is considered normal difficulty by the devs. But default is set to Normal -1 for the express reason that gamer ego often prevents new players from reducing the difficulty to easy mode even if they should but never prevents new players from increasing the difficulty if they want. The default is the best level to learn how to play for many players so that is why it is selected by default but Nomad is considered normal difficulty.

 

I play on Warrior, myself, because I it isn't too tedious having each zombie fight take so many hits but it feels good that after a few level ups I can see the difference of how many hits it took to kill a zombie at the start compared to how many times it does now. Plus I like the more frequent Rage occurrences. I've been thinking about Survivalist but just haven't done it because Warrior feels perfect to me.

[A20 Developer Diary Discussions]

5 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

I don’t understand

 

I know. It's okay. If eight pages couldn't make it happen one more response won't either. Our values are completely different and that's fine. I've already said that I agree with you that under your conditions stealth and bows are unbalanced. Understanding your perspective, I agree that if I have a bow and find a machine gun that is much more powerful in every way, I should take the machine gun and since the machine gun exists it makes the bow completely useless and pointless. If I ever choose to focus on efficiency then I will remember all your tips and strategies.

 

10 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

then I wash my hands.

 

That's all we can do at this point. I just want to point out that I washed mine first which makes me a better hand washer by your rules.

[Alpha 20 Dev Diary]

2 hours ago, Lord Morphleyes said:

I have a couple of A20 questions:

 

Hypothetically, if the release date to the GP (general public)  is December 5th, when could we expect the Patch Notes? 

 

Jut confirming, there are no major changes to the skill tree, correct?

 

We play on "friendly fire hurts" mode,  can my drone hurt my allies if they jump in its line of fire? 

 

 

Sidebar:

To the guy that mentioned the C64, I call your C64 and raise you a Vic20.  haha

 

The patch notes will  be released on the day the Streamer weekend begins which would be December 3rd in your scenario. You'll have all weekend to peruse them before the update hits on whatever Monday it hits.

 

There have been no major changes to the skill trees. 

 

Drones don't fire anything that could hurt anyone or anything.

[A20 Developer Diary Discussions]

It should be done now that we all understand each other better. I completely accept Bach's assertions given the conditions and context of how he plays the game and what is important to him. I can't argue that he is wrong.

[A20 Developer Diary Discussions]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

I have proven that fun is not proof of utility.

I don't need to prove that fun is the whole point of playing.

 

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

You say "by your criteria", then tell us in what criteria they are balanced

You've been told several times by multiple people but you can't understand it because it is alien to your way of thinking. This is not a dig. I'm just stating that we have no common frame of reference. Analogies don't work because you can't see the connection and so you dismiss them. Flat out telling you hasn't worked because you can't believe that people actually don't care about efficiency and are deceiving themselves as they play to maintain their fiction. It's taken us awhile to figure out where you're coming from but I think we are finally getting the gist of it.

 

This is not to say that I don't think that bow and stealth can't see some improvements but it is to say that I am perfectly happy with how they play right now and have had many enjoyable hours playing the game focusing on these areas for the sake of playing survival with a specific type of character. So in the sense that you can play and have an enjoyable time and experience some challenge they are balanced nicely vs the gamestage progression of the game itself as it gets more difficult. You can be a stealthy archer and survive.

 

But...all of this just sounds like a bicycle with square wheels to you right?

 

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

This is not "my definition", these are facts. If a player plays badly, makes bad choices, dies on low difficulty, builds a bad base, sorts things badly, or plans his actions badly, then this is a bad player. I do not humiliate anyone with this, it is a fact. If a person does something poorly, then he is bad at it

 

I get that you are not saying these things to be insulting. You are just stating facts as you see them. The problem is that your sense of bad is all wrapped up in efficiency and speed which are qualities of gameplay that you value. So just saying people play bad because they made bad choices is to general. We have to know that bad choices means choosing actions that don't progress your character as quickly as another action that is available.  This is why you will never play bow and stealth because as soon as you have a weapon that is better than the bow you must choose that weapon and dump the bow in order to make a good choice. 

 

People who value other aspects of the game will view keeping the bow and continuing the game as an archer as a good choice.

[A20 Developer Diary Discussions]

1 hour ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

When I started playing in A15, I rushed everything. I wanted to get the best weapons, the best tools, and the best techs ASAP. I wanted to have a solid horde base that I could upgrade by Day 7. Over time that approach caused burn out. So I switched to my current playstyle which is simply doing whatever I feel like doing efficiency be damned. It's not unusual for me to spend the first blood moon or two on top of a POI ignoring the zombies because I did not feel like building a horde base and I don't enjoy shooting down at zombies. Even with this more relaxed playstyle, I typically end my games around Day 50 or so because I have purple Tier 3 weapons and a solid horde base. And so I start a new map or switch to another game.

 

All of that is to say, rushing progression or rushing base building is a choice. It's not about good players or bad players. It's about having fun. If you enjoy rushing progression more power to you. But it is not more valid than any other playstyle. It is a way to play the game, not the way to play the game. 

 

Wow. You used to be such a good player, too...

[A20 Developer Diary Discussions]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

I don't think that speed of progression to "endgame" is anywhere in the job descriptions of a survivor in a zombie game.

 

Speed is in Bach's nature. He is not going to accept any condition that does not include speed of progression.

 

Fast progression = good player making correct strategic choices

Slow progression = bad player making poor strategic choices

 

For him, that is it. He cannot conceive of any other definition of good player vs bad player and being a good player is very important to him. No argument that tries to recontextualize the game in terms of something other than speed and efficiency of progression is simply not able to be processed or if it is it is dismissed immediately with disdain because then you are simply talking about how to play the game poorly again.

 

10 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

That's not a "normal" game, that's a speedrun game. Normal games don't include crucible and 4x4 by D7. You just prefer to speedrun it. Which is fine but that is also why the game gets boring to you, you do it the same way every time. Playing with "worse" methods increases the fun factor because it is new and challenging.

 

Speedrunners will be the folks we'll see a week after A20 drops asking, "Was that it?!"

 

They devour new content in days and then demand more. Meanwhile all the rest of us bad players will spend the next several months enjoying the new content and exploring all the changes. My goodness, it pays to be bad.

 

(Yes Bach, I know. I've amusingly and unwittingly admitted that I'm a bad player...)

 

[A20 Developer Diary Discussions]

6 hours ago, bachgaman said:

I understand what you are talking about, you are partly right, but there are different degrees of deepening in minmax. You are talking about the most extreme form of the fulfillment of this desire

 

Yes, I was talking about the most extreme on the spectrum. I also stated myself that there are degrees. By stating the most extreme, people can now read what you post and evaluate how you compare to the extreme. Going by your posts (I don't know you after all) I would say you are closer to the extreme end and I'm betting most who have read your viewpoint would agree. I mean not only can you not stand to play inefficiently you can't even stand to watch inefficient play. It is one of your admitted main objections to streamers and it makes so much sense and fits why you could never be part of that culture. 

 

7 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Thus, you admit that bow and stealth are notoriously worse perks than barter and adventurer. Thanks. This was the topic of discussion.

 

Yeah, you win. Since efficiency is the only context that matters to you-- in those terms-- I fully admit that bow and stealth are worse perks than barter and adventurer. I also admit that by concentrating on bow and and stealth I would never be able to have a jeep, concrete base, best tools and weapons, and otherwise win the game under your conditions by day 7 on Warrior or higher difficulty.

 

Now the big question that has got to worry you is whether the developers of the game believe that efficiency is the only context for balance that matters. 

 

7 hours ago, bachgaman said:

And here you amusingly avoid admitting that they are simply unbalanced.

 

And now I admit fully that they are simply unbalanced by your criteria. I completely believe you when you say you can achieve your win conditions by Day 7 with one particular combination of perks and play strategy but that you cannot replicate that using other combinations of perks and play strategies. My argument has ceased to be whether you are wrong or right about the balance of the game. You are 100% right. The perks are not all balanced against efficiency.

 

My own enjoyment of the game is completely unconditional upon whether one strategy is more or less efficient than another, however. In fact, my enjoyment of bow and stealth is due to the fact that it is less efficient because that offers a new experience and unlike you I don't have to work hard at all to ignore the fact that the way I am choosing to play is going to be slower and wasteful. So I really have no need or desire to avoid admitting that the imbalance as you have described it exists.

 

7 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Individual examples of bad players do not help you in any way to prove that there is a balance in the game. I'm not obsessed with efficiency, I just like making good choices. And I enjoy playing well.

 

Do you realize that your very definition of what makes someone a bad player vs a good player just adds more evidence about how extreme you are in your views about efficiency? Not only are you obsessed but it has become the very definition of good and bad to you. "Good choices" are only those choices that are the most efficient. "Playing well" means purely that you are progressing as quickly as you can maximizing efficiency and minimizing waste. 

 

A streamer who pauses to talk to their chat is a bad player and makes poor choices because chatting with your audience doesn't help them advance their progression in any way.

A player who decides to focus on bow and stealth is a bad player because on day 7 they will be in rags crouching behind a bush while someone else who started at the same time and is a good player will have a truck and a machine gun.

A player is a good player if they mod out the trader so none exist in their game but a bad player if they leave the trader in but just choose to ignore or limit how they use the trader because then they are making inefficient choices and ignoring the best possible choices to advance as quickly as possible that are available to them.

 

I very much doubt that the developers are going to rebalance the game (the entire game needs to be rebalanced I believe you said) to suit you. They are not nearly so focused on the thing you hold most dear.