Lockpick Recipe

[zztong]

I think the recipe for lockpicks should be changed to give 5 or 10 lockpicks as output.

 

I comparing the cost of say 3 lockpicks to break into something and the inventory space to carry them to the cost of repairing a stone axe (or the cost of repairing an iron pick) and the time involved.

[meganoth]

You also have to factor in the time opening a box with a stone axe. That is a lot more time than the repair time.

 

[zztong]

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

You also have to factor in the time opening a box with a stone axe. That is a lot more time than the repair time.

 

 

Agreed. It's not that bad to bang through a Tier 3 loot chest, wall safe, or even a gun safe, specially if you use something like AutoHotkey to hold the mouse button so that you can stretch your legs and get a drink. A couple of mins and you're done.

 

And, you have to figure in the time needed to assemble a small pile of mechanical parts to make the lockpicks.

 

As I weigh it in my mind, 5 seems good, but maybe 10. I suspect 10 is good only when I think of little to know training in the lockpick skill. If you're good at lockpicking 10 might be too high.

[meganoth]

If you count Autohotkey, then yes, but I don't know any game that wouldn't consider that a cheat and not balance for it. For me opening a box with stone axe means sitting there the full x minutes hacking on it and pressing a key.

 

We would also need to add the time we would need to wrench and or mine the materials though. But even including that time you will save a lot of time.

 

Maybe lockpicks are too expensive to craft. Don't know. But I crafted some just yesterday and was happy that my stone axe-on-box days are over.

 

As soon as the strength player has a fully perked shotgun or steel pickaxe though I might reconsider.

 

 

 

[zztong]

29 minutes ago, meganoth said:

For me opening a box with stone axe means sitting there the full x minutes hacking on it and pressing a key.

 

It takes 1 minute, right now, or about 2 minutes for a gun safe. It will be less when I get an iron pick that of decent quality. Of course not all stone axes are created equal. A plain level 1 stone axe with no mods is much longer. But at the point where I'm facing Tier 3 loot chests, a level 5 stone axe with mods is doing quite well.

 

I don't consider AutoHotkey a cheat, though I can see why some do. It doesn't make anything any faster. It doesn't ignore stamina. But it isn't universally available to the player base -- well it is free -- but not everyone will make the effort and write the little scripts. What it does do is save having to hold down a key (or button) for long periods of time, which is an important design issue for humans, especially those with accessibility issues.

 

Maybe 3 is a better number. At 1 Forged Iron and 1 Mech Part to get 1 Lockpick, I can't see ever making them.

 

It's kind of like Grilled Corn. You make one to see what it is, then never make one again.

Edited June 25, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[zztong]

Heh, well this Tier 3 chest broke 6 lock picks and I have to beat my way into it anyways.

Edited June 25, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[Javabean867]

Yeah lock picking just needs to be a tool that wears down.

 

They could have a few tiers of tools in this category.

 

Lock pick 

Lock pick set

Lock pick gun.

 

Each has their own damage per second, and durability.  The lock pick perk would increase damage and durability.   And the skill book that improves damage to locked things would make a ton more of sense.  Oh and it would also work on doors as well.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, zztong said:

Maybe 3 is a better number. At 1 Forged Iron and 1 Mech Part to get 1 Lockpick, I can't see ever making them.

 

It's kind of like Grilled Corn. You make one to see what it is, then never make one again.

I think this is more of the issue.  The cost is just too high for it to be worth making them, imo.  I'm not sure a good balance but at the moment, I've never made lockpicks and just use what I loot.  Of course, I loot far fewer in A21 (I assume this is because I don't perk into lockpicking).  Even so, I find myself just ignoring those locked containers if I don't have lockpicks until I have a tool that will chew through them quickly (a stone axe takes too long for me since the loot often isn't worth the time).

 

It is kind of like the junk turret ammo now.  3 lead or 3 lead+3 iron per round on something that eats ammo very quickly just feels way to high.  I might end up no longer using these turrets going forward even though I liked them in A20.  Note that I don't use them as a portable weapon and only on a horde base, so that probably plays a part.  If it was 1 per round, I would still use them.

3 minutes ago, Javabean867 said:

Oh and it would also work on doors as well.

They don't really want doors to be possible to unlock because they are intended as a way to direct players along a given path.  You can choose to break the door down (or window, wall, etc.) to bypass the path but at that point, it is clear to the player that they are bypassing the path.  If you make it possible to unlock locked doors, then it no longer is so obvious that you're bypassing the intended path, especially for a new player who doesn't understand that there is an intended path.  I just look at locked doors as doors that are jammed or rusted shut or whatever rather than actually locked as a way to wrap my head around not being able to pick the lock.

[zztong]

1 hour ago, Javabean867 said:

Yeah lock picking just needs to be a tool that wears down.

They could have a few tiers of tools in this category.

 

I like that for both play and simulation reasons.

 

I've got lockpicks as I teach a class with a week of physical security issues in it. The students get to pick stuff in the lab, as well as use other non-destructive entry tools. I've never broken a lock pick. None of the students have either, and if you're going to break one it will be when you're learning as you'll try to force something.

 

If we're spit-balling ideas here, I'd suggest treating the "lock pick set" as a mobile workbench, of sorts. It would be one item in your inventory that you could add tools to. There are a variety of lock pick shapes and tension tool sizes. There a shims. Then there are things like under-door tools and traveler's hooks.

 

If you wanted to go crazy with realism, you'd need the right tool in your kit and then time and maybe training. You cannot, for instance, open a combination lock with a lock pick. I open many "secured" doors as part of my audits via a traveler's hook against an incorrectly installed latch, which is more common than one might think.

 

To keep it simple, you could just mess with time and, of course, wearing the tools down and having to repair them with a repair kit.

 

As you say, more advanced tools are possible too, like the "gun" the police use or the newer "Lishi" tools.

 

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

They don't really want doors to be possible to unlock because they are intended as a way to direct players along a given path.  You can choose to break the door down (or window, wall, etc.) to bypass the path but at that point, it is clear to the player that they are bypassing the path.  If you make it possible to unlock locked doors, then it no longer is so obvious that you're bypassing the intended path, especially for a new player who doesn't understand that there is an intended path.

 

True, they don't want that. As you point out, a locked 1,000 hit point commercial door is not a barrier, but a signal. And, if you spend 30 seconds to 1 minute knocking it down, it's gone. So make picking the lock of a commercial door take 2 minutes -- which by the way would be fast for most folks, unless you're the Lockpicking Lawyer of YouTube fame. Let the bullet proof commercial doors take 3 minutes and require some level of perk/skill. Finally, Don't let any of the "vault" doors be pickable. As for residential wooden doors, well they're made to be destroyed by people who are harvesting brass. You'll find many POIs without residential doors after somebody finds that perk book.

 

To add to this, I'm finding many POI doors in states of disrepair both to allow zombies to get through them quicker and because the designer didn't want all of the boards and stuff to appear. The doors are kind of being weakened.

Edited June 25, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[zztong]

 

The irony after spending 3 minutes banging my way into a Tier 4 locked chest with an iron pick is that it contained 5 lockpicks.

 

Once my mining goes up and I put some mods on this pick that time will get a lot shorter.

[hiemfire]

3 hours ago, Riamus said:

It is kind of like the junk turret ammo now.  3 lead or 3 lead+3 iron per round on something that eats ammo very quickly just feels way to high.  I might end up no longer using these turrets going forward even though I liked them in A20.  Note that I don't use them as a portable weapon and only on a horde base, so that probably plays a part.  If it was 1 per round, I would still use them.

I takes a hell of allot more lead, much less lead and iron for the ap ammo, to clear a building using the Junk turrets and, iirc, junk turret ammo doesn't spawn in loot unlike the rest of the ammo. Back when it just required iron you could recoup the ammo used mid clear from stuff you scrapped in poi. Not any more.

[zztong]

The new commercial double doors block could be opened with a variant of the J Tool. The gap between the doors is not protected and there are no other latches to lock the door to the frame or the floor. Without those latches you might just be able to pull on both doors from the bottom and get them to open. A regular J Tool would spin the deadbolt or you can pull on the crashbar, depending on whichever direction or variant of those doors you face.