Shifting direction; not playing my way.

[Archon]

This started off as a look at the economy (which I believe, is still completely ♥♥♥♥♥♥; but in the opposite direction of what it was.) but it got long winded as each little issue seemed to connect to another little issue... and another... until I kinda realized; a lot more things than just the economy need to be cleaned up.

 

To be clear; I'm not hating on the game. I'm over 2K hours logged on steam, and despite any best efforts; you're not going to chase me off because it's wah too hard.

 

Framing the situation:

-I’m playing multiplayer.

-We have 3 constantly active people

-Trader / Nomad / Chef

-Archer / Miner / Construction guy

-Harvester of cars / quests / zombie killer

 

I’ve noticed that all of our players have gravitated to a single combat build: sledge / archery / light armor. I believe this is because it’s the only effective per opportunity cost way of dealing with undead. (outside of hoard night)

Or, that the opportunity cost of using fire arms is never worth the payoff - unless it’s to avoid a death. (Which is only ever the case with unexpected dog / bear attacks. Even then, the bow usually does the job on it’s own.)

 

I pack a single emergency firearm; with the ammo in it’s own clip (plus none). If I have to fire this; it’s because I already ♥♥♥♥♥♥up. Otherwise the only weapons used are all hail the mighty king sledge - stunner of mobs. Destroyer of all things, hallowed be his name. And the skyrim-stealth archer, bow.

 

Why: The sledge hammer auto wins any encounter where you can hit your target. The perk is far and above the best of any weapon. It repairs with forged iron; which is cheap and easily obtainable. The bow; because ammunition is abundant, and it can kill in 1-2 hits. Especially with sneak attacks. It is completely silent. (Crossbows still raise your detection bar when fired; they are no longer silent. They are trash. That is all.)

 

Sitting on day 110; A17.1, 5200 kills, zero deaths.

 

Given MadMole’s response about the ability to kinda break even (it’s still operating at a loss due to food consumption) spending a whole day lumberjacking; I noticed there’s a factor that is being forgotten.

 

Time.

 

This game is heavily focused around time management; with the always impending hoard looming above you. Any activity that can consume time; to only almost break even with resource cost (as outlined by Royal in the economy thread) is not balanced.

 

Even as a side, few minute activity… it’ll amount to nothing worth any value. A couple hundred dukes for 5-10 minutes of tree harvesting isn’t worth the inventory slot it would occupy. When you can instead; go about your normal progression path and eventually drop a minute queueing up the crafting of sets of steel armor at multiple work benches - because it’s by comparison cheap to craft vs the thousands of coins its worth; and just pick them up later.

 

Related tangent: we're all using Light Armor because the trade off of having less stamina regen, and slower movement speed is NEVER worth the additional damage mitigation. To highlight this; unless I'm specifically ♥♥♥♥ing around in a POI or doing a clear; (Heck even running around at home base) I just don't wear armor. The movement speed penalty is steep enough to completely write off using heavy; ever imo. But add on top of that the lessened stamina, and most of the game you're actively hurting yourself wearing it.

 

I've seen a lot of people talk about how having too much money isn't balanced: I have over a million dukes laying around. And nothing to spend them on. This, I believe; is an equally important problem. The only thing of any relative value a trader offers is ammunition, and early game repair material. So every three days they’ll stock (if I’m lucky) 50-100 rounds. These days not even picking up the resources other than gunpowder because steel and iron are very plentiful. Our three people are building a 50x50 x 4 floor building, and steel is plentiful.

 

Tools can easily be made yourself. And once made you don’t need another. Augers / Chainsaws just don’t seem worth using, but they have great value. So I love getting one as a reward from a T5 quest because its 10x the payout selling the tool back to the guy than what I got in quest credit.

 

Recog; is another reward I love seeing. Because it made the literal walls of glowbois; on our night 21 hoard fight-able. (Granted, in 30 second windows. Because holy crap is that buff timer too damn short for what one of these costs.)

 

Ranty-ness aside; credit on addressing the glowboi issue. It was another factor in pigeon holing people into builds purely for maximum effectiveness; rather than what I wanted a character to be roleplayed as. In prior builds; I liked to play this as a Walking Dead / Dawn of the Dead game with Fallout flavor mixed on.

 

Mostly nomadic -

I liked blades; because while not as effective as clubs - they were a tool and saved me an inventory slot. Sadly; blades just cannot compete as a weapon against the other two types. The perks are useless.

 

I liked the crossbow; because honestly the draw and fire on the bow is more mechanically demanding and gets tiresome after a while. Plus, explody bolts! Man those are great! (Well, they were. No explosive seems to be doing damage as of A17.1 Checked the xmls, and they have a listed damage of zero by default.) In A16, it was also silent. Pretty much everything you could want in one package, right? Well, now it’s not silent anymore. Given the former frequency of glowbois; stealth is all that mattered. And the crossbow is just not stealth compatible.

 

Little long winded but that’s where I’m at. The way I want to play the game just really doesn’t function anymore. Due to some major imbalances in perks, and some very very bullet-spongy HP Brick zombies.

 

Final note; I take great pride in completely avoiding hoards at the moment. Because I’ve been told you can’t. So cheers as I down this beer next to my campfire, in complete safety.

[fishjie]

hmm i also independently figured out sledge hammer was best - almost by accident because in previous patches i gravitated towards it. the stunlock ability is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ lifesaver, combined with max sex rex that gives 50 stam on a kill. without it, i'd have to waste insane amounts of ammo in POIs.

 

that's interesting about the light armor though. i picked heavy armor because the greens did so much damage and always procced bleed, i thought any kind of damage reduction would be good. also, because reloading with a weapon slows down movement unless you put points in the run and gun perk, i figured i wouldn't be able to run away if a hornests nest was after me anyway. i would use the power attack to knock multiple greens down, apply a bandaid, and then focus on killing the nearest one. are you using light armor because you are methodical enough that you only ever fight one at a time and dont get in a situation where you need to facetank?

[General Lee]

When you start getting dozens of zombies, especially ferals and irradiated ones, trying to attack you at the same time, you're gonna want to use heavy armor and heavy armor mods, put points into Heavy Armor and Pain Management, and use stamina-regenerating drinks to stay alive.

 

I use Steel Armor, with Steel Plating mods, maxed Heavy Armor, maxed Pain Management, maxed out Sex T-Rex, maxed out Stay Down , maxed out Heavy Metal, maxed out Skull Crusher, at least some points into Intrinsic Immunity, coffee (and when necessary, beer).

 

I'd much rather be able to tank a lot of damage while beating down dozens of zombies that REALLY don't want to die than be able to run from them a little longer. Everyone I've seen using Light Armor while trying to face a bunch of irradiated zombies at once in close quarters with melee, or even fully modded AKs (including Extended Magazine mod) ends up dead, unless I'm beside them knocking the zombies down over and over. Whenever my teammate and I get separated and he ends up in trouble, he dies about half the time, and he's no noob. He just can't fire enough bullets fast enough or gets cornered and surrounded. His sledge can't swing fast enough to keep him alive in those situations.

[Ranzera]

Crossbow greatly overtakes bow with the right mods and perks. Reflex Sight, Laser Sight and Bandolier combined make it even stronger than it was in A16. If you right click zoom rather than right click *hold* zoom you can get 4 bolts into a sitting sleeper before they charge. That's plenty to take down the weaker greens.

 

I also preferred Heavy Armor to Light Armor.

 

Other than that, I agree.

[Ghostlight]

Given MadMole’s response about the ability to kinda break even (it’s still operating at a loss due to food consumption) spending a whole day lumberjacking; I noticed there’s a factor that is being forgotten.

 

Time.

 

I had a bit of rant about that very topic back here: https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?107860-Questing-as-an-end-game-and-the-absurdity-of-tier-5-quests

[Kattla]

I found the sledgehammer good as long as the zombies are not moving fast.

With runner zombies, i'll use the spiked club, or a gun. Though, i put all zombies

(including ferals and glowies) to walk at day.

 

I used the xbow with explosive bolts quite a bit in A16, haven't touched it in A17.

And while i use it a little bit in the first day, i very seldom use a bow. Thought it

over in A15 or so, and realized not using guns was like only playing half the game,

since their ammo usage and making do take quite a bit of time.

 

I haven't played much A17 as of late either. I could, but it would only be the same

POI's, the same loot etc. And with all the nerfing going on, it's not becoming better

or more playable either. Starting to wonder if they are afraid of ppl actually playing

their game.

 

Had some fun with A10.4 though. Makes one realize how far 7d2d have come in

terms of graphic and animations with A17. And also what they lost along the way there.

[Ranzera]

I haven't played much A17 as of late either. I could, but it would only be the same

POI's, the same loot etc. And with all the nerfing going on, it's not becoming better

or more playable either. Starting to wonder if they are afraid of ppl actually playing

their game.

 

You're not alone there. A lot of us have noticed the soul having left the game.

[Archon]

are you using light armor because you are methodical enough that you only ever fight one at a time and dont get in a situation where you need to facetank?

Really it's because Agility is the best kept secret to an OP character. With a few points into sneaking; and understanding what doorways / thresholds the game uses to detect when to spawn in the sleepers, one can very very easily clear an entire T5 POI without alerting a single zombie. Unalerted; with boom headshot and hidden strike a steel arrow kills everything in one shot the only exception being the I think irradiated zombie Boes? irradiated hungry zombie and irradiated cops.

 

I'm never in a direct confrontation unless it's on my terms; sneak is silly.

I'd much rather be able to tank a lot of damage while beating down dozens of zombies that REALLY don't want to die than be able to run from them a little longer. Everyone I've seen using Light Armor while trying to face a bunch of irradiated zombies at once in close quarters with melee, or even fully modded AKs (including Extended Magazine mod) ends up dead, unless I'm beside them knocking the zombies down over and over. Whenever my teammate and I get separated and he ends up in trouble, he dies about half the time, and he's no noob. He just can't fire enough bullets fast enough or gets cornered and surrounded. His sledge can't swing fast enough to keep him alive in those situations.

I understand the sentiment; but if a light armor build is squaring up intentionally against that many glowbois; they've already messed up. Additionally; with the leftover points I've accumulated by now perking into light armor means I'm still only taking 2-3 damage per hit anyway. Yes, it is rougher to start with. But I consider the payoff of slogging through with light a permanent 10% move speed buff.

 

Crossbow greatly overtakes bow with the right mods and perks. Reflex Sight, Laser Sight and Bandolier combined make it even stronger than it was in A16. If you right click zoom rather than right click *hold* zoom you can get 4 bolts into a sitting sleeper before they charge. That's plenty to take down the weaker greens.

 

I also preferred Heavy Armor to Light Armor.

 

Other than that, I agree.

Stronger than it was; I agree.

However the problem I have with it is it's no longer silent. In A16 the crossbow made no noise; just like the bow. In A17; firing the bow will not change your detection bar. Firing the cross bow causes it to spike. I believe this is an error; but one that's apparently not on anyone's radar.

 

I'm not going to tell anyone they're playing wrong; if you like Heavy. I fully support you using heavy. It's just not as efficient.

 

Glad to see there's been some discussion on the topic. We'd all like to hope this game will become the best game it can be.

But; seeing as the forum staff have already decided to throw out infractions at me. I'm going to take my leave.

 

Best of luck, I'll not be returning.

[fishjie]

i've been really wanting to try light armor because i hate how slow i move in heavy. but i didnt want to risk wasting skill points in light armor. i've been doing a hybrid approach wherein i sneak into a tier V POI, and if i see a bunch of greens, i'll move a bit aways, and then snipe one in the head with a steel arrow. that will aggro it in range, and i'll get a few more steel arrow hits. Once it closes in, i'll switch to sledgehammer and then stunlock it to death. With this slow but methodical approach, i can safely clear out most of the POI while taking minimal damage and using only a few steel arrows.

 

The heavy armor comes in handy because sometimes when i aggro the green it doesn't run straight toward me, it runs around and smashes a door and starts waking other zombies. or i might get impatient because my sneak speed is so slow that i unsneak at an unopportune time and suddenly the whole place is awake. at that point i can flee, but i still have to facetank 3-4 angry greens at a time. the heavy armor kept me alive in the ♥♥♥♥ hit the fan moments. not sure if light armor would, but definitely want to experiment with it

[Ghostlight]

It's too slow imo. At very high GS (I've hit 600 in my co-op play-through), TIME is the scarce resource in tier 5's, not ammo and not HP.

[Limdood]

When you start getting dozens of zombies, especially ferals and irradiated ones, trying to attack you at the same time, you're gonna want to use heavy armor and heavy armor mods, put points into Heavy Armor and Pain Management, and use stamina-regenerating drinks to stay alive.

 

I use Steel Armor, with Steel Plating mods, maxed Heavy Armor, maxed Pain Management, maxed out Sex T-Rex, maxed out Stay Down , maxed out Heavy Metal, maxed out Skull Crusher, at least some points into Intrinsic Immunity, coffee (and when necessary, beer).

 

I'd much rather be able to tank a lot of damage while beating down dozens of zombies that REALLY don't want to die than be able to run from them a little longer. Everyone I've seen using Light Armor while trying to face a bunch of irradiated zombies at once in close quarters with melee, or even fully modded AKs (including Extended Magazine mod) ends up dead, unless I'm beside them knocking the zombies down over and over. Whenever my teammate and I get separated and he ends up in trouble, he dies about half the time, and he's no noob. He just can't fire enough bullets fast enough or gets cornered and surrounded. His sledge can't swing fast enough to keep him alive in those situations.

 

The OP said he's on Day 110 with 0 deaths....his gamestage is already going to be astronomical. This "hah! when you start running into as many zombies as -I- run into..." attitude is completely unwarranted. It shows either lack of comprehension, dismissal of the OP's experiences, or just a desire to talk about your own game in the guise of 'advice.'

 

Saying you prefer heavy to light for the additional insurance if you make a mistake is totally fine, but if the OP is playing day 110 with 0 deaths and light armor, it's clearly working just fine for him, and he simply isn't going to hit a "when the enemies finally get hard" moment...he's there already.

[General Lee]

The OP said he's on Day 110 with 0 deaths....his gamestage is already going to be astronomical. This "hah! when you start running into as many zombies as -I- run into..." attitude is completely unwarranted. It shows either lack of comprehension, dismissal of the OP's experiences, or just a desire to talk about your own game in the guise of 'advice.'

 

Saying you prefer heavy to light for the additional insurance if you make a mistake is totally fine, but if the OP is playing day 110 with 0 deaths and light armor, it's clearly working just fine for him, and he simply isn't going to hit a "when the enemies finally get hard" moment...he's there already.

 

Wow, triggered much? Not sure how you took it the way you did, but you are WAY off base. Maybe it was a lack of context, but there's no lack in yours. Get off your high horse, I wasn't giving him any grief at all. You don't need heavy armor when you're maxed on stealth skills, sneak around everywhere, and use ramps to ascend and descend ledges, but did you ever consider that, in a multiplayer game that now allows shared quests, people in your party might make a mistake and wake up a whole building by accident? I wasn't even really giving advice, just talking about a different playstyle. If anyone brought an unwarranted attitude to the thread, I think we just found him. Get over yourself, he didn't need a white knight.

 

BTW, I do most of my killing silently, up close, with the sledgehammer...because they're still asleep when I knock their heads off, lol.