feedback on A21 Audio triggers

[Hurk]

At least I've heard them called that. Zombies that only spawn when you do something specific with the environment, like open a locked door, or press an activation button, etc. 

The current implementation of this system and "hidden" zombies in general, is not fun to play with. Its detracting from the gameplay and less interesting than the A20 mechanics. 

 

First, I come from a pen and paper RMG background and have a great appreciation for games that understand the concept of *CLEARING* content. if i drain a room of all doors, walls, etc., nothing should magically spawn there. This isn't a fantasy RPG, or a space game with teleporters. Zombies magically appearing all around me isn't compelling or even remotely horror based gameplay, it just feels bad and forced. 

 

Second, the A20 hidden mobs in walls, behind everything, etc. Yea, it was cheesy, but at least most of it made sense... Even better though, were those few instances, that you can tell someone put up a barricade and died inside... you know you have to face whatever is in there, but you don't know what it is yet. To me, that was far more compelling. 

 

Third, the addition of more "breakable" wall tiles for no other reason than to hide zombies was a bad choice. no it's not a surprise when a zombie breaks out of a solid concrete wall. It just feels like badly forced gameplay the POI designers are just trying too hard to hide zombies.  Too many closet zombies now. It feels too much like a video game and not enough like a zombie game... Zombies don't have a reason to seek out small places and close the doors behind themselves. 

 

In short, if you cannot realistically think of an explanation why the zombie is where it is, it should not be there. A cop and a hooker in the jail cell during the apocalypse makes perfect sense. The lumberjack that bursts out of the projection TV screen in a conference room makes no sense. (although the same setup with 2 suits and a secretary worked) 

 

A few suggestions for ways to alternatively address this stuff: 

1. Use more of the audio triggers that cause zombies to spawn outside the area and rush to it from the surface of the POI (please note, only use this for small POIs like houses where it makes sense that the player was heard inside from the street) Again, change the trigger to be the area, not just a button. entering the garage should cause the wandering zombies outside, the sound of the door should have them come investigate. but if i stealth in and out without making any noise, no spawn should happen and instead it should fizzle. 

2. Develop a system for volumetric based triggering, IE don't force the player to find a small button on a wall to finish the content. If they have moved through the area that was supposed to be triggered by said button, flag it as complete, even if they don't trigger the zombies.  This way militant diggers like myself that like making my own doors in your walls don't get stuck searching a tier 5 for several hours because I decided not to follow the one single path you laid out for me through your content. (seriously, if i have to follow a sequence of events we are no longer playing a sandbox game, and you are ignoring the fact that you specifically are giving us the tools to NOT follow your path) 

3. Never spawn zombies in the same space as the player. They should be triggered by the playering being close to that space at best (realistically all zombies should spawn once a player enters a POI box, but I know that can be computationally expensive) If the player breaks into a volumetric space without hitting your intended trigger, the trigger should fizzle and complete without zombies spawning. 

4. If you are trying to force players to take damage, consider their actions limit. a player in a tier 1/2 POI likely doesn't have full auto weapons, nor do they have deep clips, so 2-3 zombies at once can overwhelm them, while a player in a tier 5 POI will likely handle hordes just fine with full auto weapons, but a few strong zombies in the mix may slow them down enough to force a reload or force them to get tunnel vision and miss other attackers. 

5. More difficulty sliders... let people choose if POIs will have less/more/stronger/weaker zombies. More player agency when setting up the servers will allow us to better tailor our play. For instance, if you offered me a server command to not use audio blocks in zombie placement, I would currently disable that.  but finding the lock on a 10,000 health door that has ~10 zombies on the other side? doesn't bother me. 

 

I love that A19 and A20 felt like a Zombie movie of old. the slow walking inevitable horde that just forces you to move on or tech up. I dont want yet another run and gun "Left for Dead" clone. This game to me is like the grown up version of Minecraft... the bad guys are annoying and potentially dangerous, but not "The Forest/Valhiem"" style badguys where nothing you can do prep-wise matters.

[theFlu]

I agree with most of that, annoyed to my core blocking automagical-doorway-portals with bar blocks as there's nothing to clear behind them before I press the magic button.

 

For 4. "consider the player level against the POIs", I'd have say, at least they're trying, and IMO have done a pretty decent job at it. Lower level POIs don't really spawn anything really nasty, rarely even as Infestations.

 

And for 5. I agree, but I also expect most those to be added at best right before or even somewhat after going gold. Making more and more options early is a complexity issue in development and testing, which will even become completely pointless when settings end up getting cut for one reason or another.

 

But overall, yeah; less arcade features, more of the unique-zombie-sandbox gameplay please

[Rince]

I wonder if it's possible to make triggers to activate when the player enter a determinate radious. That way zombies will spawn no matter from where the player is coming.

[theFlu]

30 minutes ago, Rince said:

I wonder if it's possible to make triggers to activate when the player enter a determinate radious.

Like the attack volumes?

There's at least one trigger that's outdoors in a wide enough space that basically requires an area trigger (the energy station with couple magical double doors surrounding the end loot, tier two POI or so), otherwise the player might just walk around it... So I'd say it's possible, just not the intended use for most of them. Which is worse in my book, they actually decided to make them like this.

[Abusimplea]

In general, triggers that don't trigger on noise shouldn't be called audio triggers.

Traditionally, sleepers are triggered to wake up by noise. Sometimes shining a bright light into their eyes also works.

Then there where and are the visibility check triggers that on entering the trigger volume check your visibility and may wake up all contained sleepers.

The sleepers are normally spawned in based on proximity to the player (maybe weighting vertical distance different than horizontal distance).

Activating generators when doing the generator quests spawned a horde of woke zombies nearby in A20.

 

In A21 there seem to be more triggers actually spawning sleepers or woke zombies. They react to a player operating a door / switch / key hooks, entering the volume, making noise inside the volume, and/or being visible inside the volume. Most likely, it is a pretty generic system where you can assign areas, objects and spawns to a trigger and then set conditions on all the triggering struff and set the activation state (sleeper, woke, woke-aggro) of the triggered spawns.

In rare cases the new woke triggers seem to work in a believable way at least partially (mostly when they spawn a horde further away). Most of the time they really looks like they let the new dude do them... And the new dude worked as level designer for Call of Duty before.

 

But it could also just be a bug.

Maybe, the engine fully ignores some proximity condition that would normally lead to the zombies to get spawned in way before the player comes close to their spawn location. All it needs for that to happen is an "and" condition instead of an "or" somewhere. Software is hard and humans aren't known for being error-free.

[Rabbitslovecactus]

I agree with this to a certain extent. I think the stealth system is broken. I wish we would go back to the days where it would say "Hunted" and an eye would open when you're sneaking to show that they've detected you.

 

All in all, stealth should work by sound/noise volume, not by action or distance. BRING BACK THE OLD STEALTH WITH THE "HUNTED" ALERT. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Rabbitslovecactus (see edit history)

[Silverjohn]

For 4. "consider the player level against the POIs", I'd have say, at least they're trying, and IMO have done a pretty decent job at it. Lower level POIs don't really spawn anything really nasty, rarely even as Infestations.

 

I'd have to disagree with that.  If you haven't seen it yet the last loot room of the regular Tier 1 Camp Carwal POI has you drop in and automatically triggers two regular zombies and a lumberjack in an enclosed space with no obvious way out.  And before you dismiss this a "git gud noob" I've been playing the game for eight years and I haven't been able to survive that with legitimate Tier 1 gear (even on Nomad) without meta-gaming and chopping my way in from the ground floor so I can kite the lumberjack out into the open.  For a new player or someone who doesn't know what's coming that is a death sentence.

[theFlu]

9 hours ago, Silverjohn said:

If you haven't seen it yet the last loot room of the regular Tier 1 Camp Carwal POI has you drop in and automatically triggers two regular zombies and a lumberjack in an enclosed space with no obvious way out.

That one I haven't, at least it doesn't ring a bell. 2 regs + a lumberjack may be a lil rough for a T1, and if it's in a "good" trap room, absolutely. But I can't remember a T1 I've ran into that would've done that to me yet. Most of them have been fine for difficulty IMO - not that I've paid too much attention to that, just speeding thru for the most part..

 

As you have a POI name for it, you might want to raise an issue.. a bug report, or just ask QA (ping Jugginator or someone) - with a screenie if you can. New POIs will surely have issues, including with balancing.

 

EDIT: Oh, you already did, in the other thread. Nevermind then!

Edited July 15, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Hurk]

On 7/14/2023 at 9:34 AM, Abusimplea said:

In general, triggers that don't trigger on noise shouldn't be called audio triggers.

Traditionally, sleepers are triggered to wake up by noise. Sometimes shining a bright light into their eyes also works.

Then there where and are the visibility check triggers that on entering the trigger volume check your visibility and may wake up all contained sleepers.

The sleepers are normally spawned in based on proximity to the player (maybe weighting vertical distance different than horizontal distance).

Activating generators when doing the generator quests spawned a horde of woke zombies nearby in A20.

 

In A21 there seem to be more triggers actually spawning sleepers or woke zombies. They react to a player operating a door / switch / key hooks, entering the volume, making noise inside the volume, and/or being visible inside the volume. Most likely, it is a pretty generic system where you can assign areas, objects and spawns to a trigger and then set conditions on all the triggering struff and set the activation state (sleeper, woke, woke-aggro) of the triggered spawns.

In rare cases the new woke triggers seem to work in a believable way at least partially (mostly when they spawn a horde further away). Most of the time they really looks like they let the new dude do them... And the new dude worked as level designer for Call of Duty before.

 

But it could also just be a bug.

Maybe, the engine fully ignores some proximity condition that would normally lead to the zombies to get spawned in way before the player comes close to their spawn location. All it needs for that to happen is an "and" condition instead of an "or" somewhere. Software is hard and humans aren't known for being error-free.

to be clear, sleepers and sleeper blocks are different. im comparing what ive heard called audio blocks to sleeper blocks.  audio blocks work by making you, the player, make noise by opening a door, pushing a button, IE causing "something" to happen. sleeper blocks are blocks that when you cross them, trigger spawns. so you can look into a building for a little bit away and see nothing, but as you close on the building, you cross a sleeper block, and now that building is full.  at least, this is my understanding of their function. 

 

the ones that spawn woke zombies to attack, i think, are the new audio blocks. the issue is that they are not a volume or area, but rather, single interactable items. (that people often miss or work around intentionally) these audio blocks cause missions to not complete. which is why i want a fizzle concept... IE if i worked around a trigger spawn, that still counts as completing it. 

The other issue with audio blocks is you can activate them from the wrong side. IE you can have gone through a locked door into a room, then see another door and as soon as you touch it, 5 zombies spawn AROUND YOU. because you are intended to have come the other way. This is my major complaint about these triggers. 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Hurk (see edit history)

[theFlu]

4 minutes ago, Hurk said:

what ive heard called audio blocks

Heard, as in someone speaking? Are you sure they're not saying "auto" as in automatic?

Audio is the sound-only version of "video", it makes no sense in the context. The triggers aren't things you'd expect to make any more noise than the normal sleeper volume mechanics.

Sure, "auto" isn't much better, but at least I could see it being used as there's no good word for the type yet...

[Abusimplea]

6 hours ago, Hurk said:

the issue is that they are not a volume or area, but rather, single interactable items.

The actual problem seems to be, that someone at The Fun Pimps forgot, that the foundation of the game is a fully destructible voxel world where players making their own paths is an intended playstyle. Quite some POIs contain loot that only the players breaking block and actively searching for hidden places will ever see. The player is expected to act smart and think ahead. Most of the later traps are deadly for normal players that don't do that.

 

If a door spawns the zombies and wakes/aggros them, then the gameplay indead breaks when a player comes from the other side. That obviously is a bug in the POI design.

But if zombies spawn in when the player is nearby and the door only wakes/aggros them, then the gameplay just keeps working when a player comes from the other side. If they already killed the zombies, fine. If not, also fine - they now come to him to get killed.

[Riamus]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:37 PM, Silverjohn said:

For 4. "consider the player level against the POIs", I'd have say, at least they're trying, and IMO have done a pretty decent job at it. Lower level POIs don't really spawn anything really nasty, rarely even as Infestations.

 

I'd have to disagree with that.  If you haven't seen it yet the last loot room of the regular Tier 1 Camp Carwal POI has you drop in and automatically triggers two regular zombies and a lumberjack in an enclosed space with no obvious way out.  And before you dismiss this a "git gud noob" I've been playing the game for eight years and I haven't been able to survive that with legitimate Tier 1 gear (even on Nomad) without meta-gaming and chopping my way in from the ground floor so I can kite the lumberjack out into the open.  For a new player or someone who doesn't know what's coming that is a death sentence.

 

23 hours ago, theFlu said:

That one I haven't, at least it doesn't ring a bell. 2 regs + a lumberjack may be a lil rough for a T1, and if it's in a "good" trap room, absolutely. But I can't remember a T1 I've ran into that would've done that to me yet. Most of them have been fine for difficulty IMO - not that I've paid too much attention to that, just speeding thru for the most part..

 

As you have a POI name for it, you might want to raise an issue.. a bug report, or just ask QA (ping Jugginator or someone) - with a screenie if you can. New POIs will surely have issues, including with balancing.

 

EDIT: Oh, you already did, in the other thread. Nevermind then!

That POI is definitely a bad design for a T1.  I had it as my first T1 quest, IIRC.  I was swarmed by the 3 in a room about the size of a lunchbox  and was pushed against the corner where I dropped into the room, preventing me from even attempting to escape.  I was dead in seconds.  I don't mind challenge but I don't like things that are intended to kill you without you having any chance unless you have prior knowledge and can avoid the situation.  These designs are one-shots as you likely can work around the design the next time through since you now know what to expect so they offer little other than a cheesy death.  They aren't there to be challenging but to be practically impossible the first time through if you are doing them on-level.

 

The rest of the POI isn't really a big deal,  though it has more zombies that probably any other T1 POI.  Just for zombie counts, I'd probably consider it a T2 even if it's not all that difficult before the loot room.  But with that loot room design, it should be at least T2 and potentially T3, though that's a bit much.  It's kind of a T2.5 POI.  I'd be fine with it being a T2.

 

Regarding the OP, I mostly agree.  Though I don't like the idea of any kind of auto-complete mechanism for finding a way to avoid spawning zombies.  That just leads to exploits where you can purposefully avoid spawning zombies and still complete the quest.  Instead, the zombies should always spawn if you enter their area.  Then, no matter how you get there, you'll trigger them.  If you broke through a wall instead of pushing a button to open a door, the zombies will still appear, for example.  That, and they shouldn't appear out of nowhere.  They should be either already spawned and just "sleeping" when you're within a certain distance of the area so they aren't appearing out of thin air or they need to be in hidden areas like the ceiling so they at least don't appear out of nowhere.  I'm not concerned too much about zombies coming out of ceilings or closets as those can at least seem plausible - the person tried hiding there after getting infected and turned into a zombie and just stayed there until you came along.  But appearing out of nowhere or after you already cleared the room just because you then pressed a button looks really bad and isn't plausible.  Also, certain places zombies are placed are also bad.  If it looks like they are breaking out of a cement wall, that's not plausible and shouldn't happen.  That's different from breaking out of a closet.  No one is going to be hiding inside a solid cement wall.

 

That kind of loot room design really fits better in a T3+ POI and can adjust number of zombies to fit the tier.  If you want it in a T1, you shouldn't have more than 2 of the lowest tier zombies (no lumberjack) in there or the room needs more space and/or an exit that you can easily make use of before getting pushed against the wall and unable to move.