Thoughts on the current state of the game

[For4ger]

Good day to all! I have been playing 7dtd for many years, I look forward to every update of the game like air. Many things have changed for the better, but there are innovations that bother me:

 

1) "Learn by looting" system. There is too much paper in the game - at the same time skill books, crafting magazines, and modification schemes. Ideally, it would be worth leaving one thing, for example, magazines, but adding a magazine for making modifications and when reading every tenth magazine, rewarding the player with a perk that was previously tied to books.

 

2) The system of skills. Due to the decoupling from the skills of the crafting system, many perks have become useless, especially in the intelligence tree. It is worth completely reworking the skills, ideally so that each branch fully suits the player's playstyle. The lockpicking skill should be returned to Perception, and the dismantling of objects with a wrench should be transferred to Intelligence. Hammers from Strength should be transferred to Fortitude, it’s too good when there are two excellent types of weapons in one skill line at once. Brass knuckles as a type of weapon look ridiculous against those who dream of tasting your flesh, I would prefer to remove them from the game. The cooking skill from Strength should be transferred to Intelligence. The skill of collecting meat from animals should be transferred to Agility, because the knife skill is located there.

 

3) Item quality system. At the moment, the difference between a gray and purple item is mainly in the level of durability and the number of modification slots (with the latest update, modifications have become even less tied to the quality of the item). Maybe we should completely abandon the quality system, leaving only a simple and "legendary" look for each item, like in Fallout 4? It is better to add more variations between pipe weapons and the best options. And also, so that finding a legendary pipe weapon with a good unique property could encourage the player not to change it to the "simple" version of the M60 machine gun. This should add a lot of excitement to the game when finding the legendary versions of weapons and take away the constant frustration of finding another gray gun in the toilet.

 

This is just the first part of what I wanted to discuss, I hope to continue if it will be of even a small benefit to the further development of the game. Thanks to everyone who read, it will be interesting to read the opinions of other fans of the game.

[jetZeds]

9 minutes ago, For4ger said:

 

 

1) "Learn by looting" system. There is too much paper in the game - at the same time skill books, crafting magazines, and modification schemes. Ideally, it would be worth leaving one thing, for example, magazines, but adding a magazine for making modifications and when reading every tenth magazine, rewarding the player with a perk that was previously tied to books.

I would prefer more of a hybrid system:   You learn by reading to unlock certain levels and then actually advance your skill by doing the skill.  Would be similar to educating yourself through school but advancing your craft by practicing what you read.

 

The amount of books/magazines are waaay to abundant as is.    Day 49 and I have pretty much have everything I want. 

 

[Lamblaska]

8 hours ago, For4ger said:

Good day to all! I have been playing 7dtd for many years, I look forward to every update of the game like air. Many things have changed for the better, but there are innovations that bother me:

 

1) "Learn by looting" system. There is too much paper in the game - at the same time skill books, crafting magazines, and modification schemes. Ideally, it would be worth leaving one thing, for example, magazines, but adding a magazine for making modifications and when reading every tenth magazine, rewarding the player with a perk that was previously tied to books.

 

 

 

I like the whole learn by looting system. I feels more immersive and engages you in scavenging and sometimes aim for certain POIs. But I agree, it requires tuning. I will set some examples here:

1) Vehicles Crafting:

     a) You learn how to make gas on early stages (around 20 I think) - Craft Magazine
     b) You Learn hot to make gas bundles (around 80~100 i think). - Craft Magazine

2) Ammo Craft:
     a) You basically know how to craft ammo (the regular one) without any trainning.
     b) You only learn AP and HiPower ammo from specific books.
     c) You only learn how to bundle ammo after reading all books of a specific theme. So you can't create bundle ammo until you know how to make all types of ammo. 

So yes, they are kinda mixed and I think there's a lot of room for improvement there. Gas and ammo should work in a similar fashion. 

Regarding you suggestion. I do believe the Books and Craft magazines have different purposes in game. The craft magazines are like a reliable and predictable progression for craft. And mods and books are a high unpredictable and random bonus. The mods schematics and books that unlocks craft have the same way of work IMO. So I think there is the place where it needs the most tuning. 

[Lamblaska]

8 hours ago, For4ger said:

2) The system of skills. Due to the decoupling from the skills of the crafting system, many perks have become useless, especially in the intelligence tree. It is worth completely reworking the skills, ideally so that each branch fully suits the player's playstyle. The lockpicking skill should be returned to Perception, and the dismantling of objects with a wrench should be transferred to Intelligence. Hammers from Strength should be transferred to Fortitude, it’s too good when there are two excellent types of weapons in one skill line at once. Brass knuckles as a type of weapon look ridiculous against those who dream of tasting your flesh, I would prefer to remove them from the game. The cooking skill from Strength should be transferred to Intelligence. The skill of collecting meat from animals should be transferred to Agility, because the knife skill is located there.

I like the idea of crossing skills in different trees. But some of them feel totally out of place from a immersion point of view. And the most clear example is the cooking skill (but there are so many others). I think an interesting way to improve that would be blend the requirements. Cooking would not be only intelligence but something like: 

Level 1 : no requirements
Level 2 : 2 intelligence
Level 3:  3 Intelligence
Level 4: 3 intelligence + 2 perception
Level 5: 3 Intelligence + 2 perception + 2 agility  

 

But I don't think this idea follows the premises of the game. 

 

[theFlu]

2 hours ago, Lamblaska said:

Level 5: 3 Intelligence + 2 perception + 2 agility

Agility for the ultimate pancake flip? Reduces material costs as you don't throw them to the floor anymore?

[Lamblaska]

13 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Agility for the ultimate pancake flip? Reduces material costs as you don't throw them to the floor anymore?

sauhsahuhuas something like that. You are agile on cutting ingredients uahsuhas

[theFlu]

1 minute ago, Lamblaska said:

You are agile on cutting ingredients uahsuhas

Somehow this manages to tingle my "don't google that" -nerve.

[Scyris]

I'd like to see some utility skills be cross stat, like for example the cooking skill, have it basically look at 2 or 3 stats and whichever is the highest determines how high you can take it. Str is fine, add it to endurance (gotta have endurance to eat some of the stuff) and maybe intel. Whichever of these 3 stats is the highest is the one that determines what level of master chef perk you can get. Miner69'er and motherload could also cross 3 or even 4 stats, the only stat that doesn't make sense here is agility. Intel your smart enough to know where to hit and how for the most damage/resources, Perception is same as intel, Endurance makes sense as Mining is hard work irl, and Stregenth, well you need strgenth to drive a pickaxe into a rock. Whichever of these 4 stats is highest is what determines what level you can take miner 69'er/motherload to.

 

I hate the stat system 7dtd uses personally, its god aweful for single player games as you need to do everything yourself, its why I still just mainly go str, as it has miner 69'er and motherload in it, 2 very useful skills across the entire game for single player. Club and shotguns are also very good weapon choices. I've tried other stat builds, and tbh none of them feel like they flow as well as str does. My idea of letting multiple stats determine the max you can lv a perk to instead of one would help fix this a bit.

[Lamblaska]

On 7/7/2023 at 11:58 PM, For4ger said:

3) Item quality system. At the moment, the difference between a gray and purple item is mainly in the level of durability and the number of modification slots (with the latest update, modifications have become even less tied to the quality of the item). Maybe we should completely abandon the quality system, leaving only a simple and "legendary" look for each item, like in Fallout 4? It is better to add more variations between pipe weapons and the best options. And also, so that finding a legendary pipe weapon with a good unique property could encourage the player not to change it to the "simple" version of the M60 machine gun. This should add a lot of excitement to the game when finding the legendary versions of weapons and take away the constant frustration of finding another gray gun in the toilet.

 

This is just the first part of what I wanted to discuss, I hope to continue if it will be of even a small benefit to the further development of the game. Thanks to everyone who read, it will be interesting to read the opinions of other fans of the game.

Actually not only (but I do get your meaning). It has a small improvement value on dmg and block damage, but it is small. And crafted weapons will not get far. The feeling I had is that when I reached the level 5 craft of a tier. It would not take more than a day or two to find the level 6 of the same tier. So it feels out of balance. Sometimes I would even get Quality 6 tools before I was able to craft level 5 (this is more likely to happen if you go to cold and wasteland biomes sometimes). 

I don't like the idea of properties. It feels more like a high fantasy thing than a crude survival. But I like to think that every legendary (Quality 6) item is a pre apocalypse thing so it's something that you can't craft by yourself. I would like to see actual models for this stuff. The Q5 SMG could be an actual SMG without the handmade junk aspect (the spoon, for instance).  I think this level 6 could be extremely rare and require additional effort to repair them (not only repair kits and a few seconds). 

And also, pulling the (1) you mentioned. I think that would be nice to not be able to craft the attachments/mods. This would eliminate the schematics and you would rely only in scavenging to find pre apocalypse attachments. The attachments being only loot found could fulfill the "unique property" role you mentioned. Having less of them around would make the mod slots less overpower. (taking your M60 Q1 vs Pipegun Q6 example - the slots would not be less critical if you have less modules around). By adding more attachments you can improve the number of unique properties. And there is no need to reinvent the wheel here. Any modern FPS game has live dozens of attachments that can be used as an example. This could provide a lot of flavor to the game. 

 

[Riamus]

On 7/8/2023 at 11:36 AM, Scyris said:

I hate the stat system 7dtd uses personally, its god aweful for single player games as you need to do everything yourself, its why I still just mainly go str, as it has miner 69'er and motherload in it, 2 very useful skills across the entire game for single player. Club and shotguns are also very good weapon choices. I've tried other stat builds, and tbh none of them feel like they flow as well as str does. My idea of letting multiple stats determine the max you can lv a perk to instead of one would help fix this a bit.

Wouldn't multiple stats just make it even more of a problem from your view?  You said you need everything but still focus on a spec but if you had multiple stats needed, you couldn't focus on a spec and would have to do everything no matter what.  That seems to go against what you want unless I'm missing something.

 

Multiple stats is a problem for anyone who wants to spec into a single tree because you can't do things unless you put points in all trees.  That would upset a lot of players and really doesn't add much to the game.  If the game had actual classes, then it would be a good option as it wouldn't affect your "class" the way it does in this game where your "class" is whatever tree you spec into for those who focus on one tree.  For someone like me, who doesn't focus on a tree and just puts points in the perks they find useful and the trees for those perks, it wouldn't make much difference.  I'm already a Jack of All Trades.  All it would do is maybe somewhat adjust the order I put points into things.  That doesn't improve my game any even if it doesn't hurt my game any either.  So it just feels like it would hurt a lot of people who focus on a tree and not really benefit anyone.

 

On 7/7/2023 at 10:58 PM, For4ger said:

Good day to all! I have been playing 7dtd for many years, I look forward to every update of the game like air. Many things have changed for the better, but there are innovations that bother me:

 

1) "Learn by looting" system. There is too much paper in the game - at the same time skill books, crafting magazines, and modification schemes. Ideally, it would be worth leaving one thing, for example, magazines, but adding a magazine for making modifications and when reading every tenth magazine, rewarding the player with a perk that was previously tied to books.

 

2) The system of skills. Due to the decoupling from the skills of the crafting system, many perks have become useless, especially in the intelligence tree. It is worth completely reworking the skills, ideally so that each branch fully suits the player's playstyle. The lockpicking skill should be returned to Perception, and the dismantling of objects with a wrench should be transferred to Intelligence. Hammers from Strength should be transferred to Fortitude, it’s too good when there are two excellent types of weapons in one skill line at once. Brass knuckles as a type of weapon look ridiculous against those who dream of tasting your flesh, I would prefer to remove them from the game. The cooking skill from Strength should be transferred to Intelligence. The skill of collecting meat from animals should be transferred to Agility, because the knife skill is located there.

 

3) Item quality system. At the moment, the difference between a gray and purple item is mainly in the level of durability and the number of modification slots (with the latest update, modifications have become even less tied to the quality of the item). Maybe we should completely abandon the quality system, leaving only a simple and "legendary" look for each item, like in Fallout 4? It is better to add more variations between pipe weapons and the best options. And also, so that finding a legendary pipe weapon with a good unique property could encourage the player not to change it to the "simple" version of the M60 machine gun. This should add a lot of excitement to the game when finding the legendary versions of weapons and take away the constant frustration of finding another gray gun in the toilet.

 

This is just the first part of what I wanted to discuss, I hope to continue if it will be of even a small benefit to the further development of the game. Thanks to everyone who read, it will be interesting to read the opinions of other fans of the game.

 

1. I'd be fine with merging books and magazines except that I like that random factor.  Magazines already remove a lot of the randomness from the game by making crafting linear instead of having the possibility of learning something early in one game and something else early in another.  I like the possibility of getting a book and its unlock sometimes early and sometimes late.  Even mods fall into this, though I have never crafted mods except for the drone and for vehicles because they are found everywhere and so crafting them isn't worth it.  I do get frustrated with vehicle mods often as the supercharger is often very hard to find and it can take forever to finally find the schematic but I still prefer the random aspect to making it linear.

 

2. Rearranging perks isn't a big deal to me.  What makes sense for one person might not make sense for another, so which way do you arrange them?  Some perks don't really fit into any of the trees and some fit into multiple trees.  There just isn't any perfect way to arrange them with the current system.  They could make a different system but I doubt they will.  They also try to balance the trees so there is something useful in each tree.  If you move things around, it is very likely to unbalance the trees and make one or two trees "must have" trees, which isn't a good thing even if the placement of the perks is more realistic.  As far as removing brawling weapons... you might not like them but others do.  Removing them just because you don't like them isn't a valid reason.

 

3. They have talked about legendary items.  We'll have to see what they do with those (if they add them).  Until then, there's not a lot to discuss unless you want a thread all about ideas for legendary items in hopes the devs will find some of the ideas helpful.  Until then, the current system isn't bad.  Each upgrade is an improvement with the current version of the game.  The change to mods has helped to make that true where it wasn't true before.  Quality levels are fine to have in the game.  The difference of one quality level (including going from T1Q5 to T2Q1) should be small.  It is normal in games to find stuff you can't use for one reason or another - not as good as what you have or not something you can use such as from another class in a game with classes or some other reason.  That's not a bad thing.  As long as you can find better stuff, that's all that matters.  And you can continually upgrade in this game until you reach the max.  If and when they do add legendary items, then those could provide for some interesting options and choices if they are treated differently than just another quality level.

[ZehMatt]

On 7/8/2023 at 6:12 AM, jetZeds said:

I would prefer more of a hybrid system:   You learn by reading to unlock certain levels and then actually advance your skill by doing the skill.  Would be similar to educating yourself through school but advancing your craft by practicing what you read.

 

The amount of books/magazines are waaay to abundant as is.    Day 49 and I have pretty much have everything I want. 

 

Seems like the most sensible approach to me as well, read a book to understand the basics and then get better by doing it a lot.

[Scyris]

17 hours ago, Riamus said:

Wouldn't multiple stats just make it even more of a problem from your view?  You said you need everything but still focus on a spec but if you had multiple stats needed, you couldn't focus on a spec and would have to do everything no matter what.  That seems to go against what you want unless I'm missing something.

 

Multiple stats is a problem for anyone who wants to spec into a single tree because you can't do things unless you put points in all trees.  That would upset a lot of players and really doesn't add much to the game.  If the game had actual classes, then it would be a good option as it wouldn't affect your "class" the way it does in this game where your "class" is whatever tree you spec into for those who focus on one tree.  For someone like me, who doesn't focus on a tree and just puts points in the perks they find useful and the trees for those perks, it wouldn't make much difference.  I'm already a Jack of All Trades.  All it would do is maybe somewhat adjust the order I put points into things.  That doesn't improve my game any even if it doesn't hurt my game any either.  So it just feels like it would hurt a lot of people who focus on a tree and not really benefit anyone.

 

 

1. I'd be fine with merging books and magazines except that I like that random factor.  Magazines already remove a lot of the randomness from the game by making crafting linear instead of having the possibility of learning something early in one game and something else early in another.  I like the possibility of getting a book and its unlock sometimes early and sometimes late.  Even mods fall into this, though I have never crafted mods except for the drone and for vehicles because they are found everywhere and so crafting them isn't worth it.  I do get frustrated with vehicle mods often as the supercharger is often very hard to find and it can take forever to finally find the schematic but I still prefer the random aspect to making it linear.

 

2. Rearranging perks isn't a big deal to me.  What makes sense for one person might not make sense for another, so which way do you arrange them?  Some perks don't really fit into any of the trees and some fit into multiple trees.  There just isn't any perfect way to arrange them with the current system.  They could make a different system but I doubt they will.  They also try to balance the trees so there is something useful in each tree.  If you move things around, it is very likely to unbalance the trees and make one or two trees "must have" trees, which isn't a good thing even if the placement of the perks is more realistic.  As far as removing brawling weapons... you might not like them but others do.  Removing them just because you don't like them isn't a valid reason.

 

3. They have talked about legendary items.  We'll have to see what they do with those (if they add them).  Until then, there's not a lot to discuss unless you want a thread all about ideas for legendary items in hopes the devs will find some of the ideas helpful.  Until then, the current system isn't bad.  Each upgrade is an improvement with the current version of the game.  The change to mods has helped to make that true where it wasn't true before.  Quality levels are fine to have in the game.  The difference of one quality level (including going from T1Q5 to T2Q1) should be small.  It is normal in games to find stuff you can't use for one reason or another - not as good as what you have or not something you can use such as from another class in a game with classes or some other reason.  That's not a bad thing.  As long as you can find better stuff, that's all that matters.  And you can continually upgrade in this game until you reach the max.  If and when they do add legendary items, then those could provide for some interesting options and choices if they are treated differently than just another quality level.

 

By mutiple stats I mean, the skill can be leveled based on mutiple stats, and whichever is the HIGHEST of those determines how high you take the perk. Like say you have 1 str, 5 end, 1 perception, 1 intel. Using my miner 69'er/motherload example here. This would allow you to take level 4 miner 69'er and mnother load, since end is 5, and it requires 5 in a stat for level 4, and you met this with Endurance. Get what I mean now? if you had 2 str, 4 per, 5 end, 7 intel, for example you could take motherload/miner 69'er to 5/5 since it requires 7 in a stat. Bascially allows perks to have multiple stats to unlock levels of, but you only need ONE of those the highest to unlock the max rank, not all of them. Game will just look at which of the viable stats for that perk is the highest and that determines how high you can take it ignoring any of the lower ones entirely. Its basically the perk system we have now, just with more adaptability, as thsi would allow u to get mining bonuses with most stats instead of str only. Could be a Per, End or Int build and be able to take it as high with int 7 as u would normally have to have str to 7 to do so.

 

Perks that are able to do this could be moved to a utility perks tab, or left where they are and just have the localization updated.

[theFlu]

19 minutes ago, Scyris said:

Game will just look at which of the viable stats for that perk is the highest and that determines how high you can take it ignoring any of the lower ones entirely.

I don't hate your idea or anything, but I think TFP's whole idea is that different types will be playing a little differently. Some cook more efficiently while others get more meat from the kills to just be able to waste it. Perfect balance.

 

Then again, it has lead to a place where you need more shotgun head damage to cook faster, but ... yeah, no. I wouldn't mind another overhaul

[Riamus]

5 hours ago, Scyris said:

 

By mutiple stats I mean, the skill can be leveled based on mutiple stats, and whichever is the HIGHEST of those determines how high you take the perk. Like say you have 1 str, 5 end, 1 perception, 1 intel. Using my miner 69'er/motherload example here. This would allow you to take level 4 miner 69'er and mnother load, since end is 5, and it requires 5 in a stat for level 4, and you met this with Endurance. Get what I mean now? if you had 2 str, 4 per, 5 end, 7 intel, for example you could take motherload/miner 69'er to 5/5 since it requires 7 in a stat. Bascially allows perks to have multiple stats to unlock levels of, but you only need ONE of those the highest to unlock the max rank, not all of them. Game will just look at which of the viable stats for that perk is the highest and that determines how high you can take it ignoring any of the lower ones entirely. Its basically the perk system we have now, just with more adaptability, as thsi would allow u to get mining bonuses with most stats instead of str only. Could be a Per, End or Int build and be able to take it as high with int 7 as u would normally have to have str to 7 to do so.

 

Perks that are able to do this could be moved to a utility perks tab, or left where they are and just have the localization updated.

Ahhh.  I misunderstood.  I thought you meant that you'd need skills A, B, and C all at specific levels rather than A, B, or C.  Sorry about that.