Someone has to say it: The loot system sucks....

[Ttocs]

Alpha 16 was superior in this aspect (and quite a few others imo) they wiped out the wow factor and added a meh factor.  (less predictable)

Zombie AI was more realistic and interesting (less predictable)
Learn by doing felt better (more immersive)

Mining was better (Harder, {Less predictable})

 

Graphics are alot better now tho wahey, but thats why I avoid AAA games alot, because they focus too much on how things look and less on... fun 

 

moan over

 

 

[meganoth]

14 hours ago, ElDudorino said:

 

Except there's no indication of what constitutes a "harder" area according to the game, because it certainly isn't based on actual difficulty. Why is the desert better loot than the forest but worse than the snow? Why is a T5 in the forest worse loot than like a shack in the snow? The system is completely untuned to the point that it doesn't make sense.

 

Why are the skeletons in the north territory ALL better fighters than the orcs in the swamps in "Generic Fantasy Game III" ? Why are the people of the Highlands all so much better fighters than the people of the Lowlands and why are the Lowlands not already conquered by the Highlands then? Fact is, they are. 😉

 

I'm sure there will be a journal entry eventually that tells scavengers of more dangerous biomes. But other biomes have more dangerous zombies, more dangerous animals, more difficult weather. Sure, weather isn't where it needs to be and is currently ignored by players.  And I fully agree that animals are not the threat imagined by TFP. They maybe need an ability to throw players from their vehicles. And the old surprise spawn mechanism directly behind you of dog hordes, at least in snow biome.

 

I assume you didn't increase gamma, changed brightness or contrast on your monitor or turned off shadows completely, right? If either of that is the case it isn't really TFPs fault that you can see so well in these biomes. If not, it is difficult to see how that could be improved, except maybe make animals somewhat transparent to simulate stealth

 

14 hours ago, ElDudorino said:

 

Pine forest, snow, and desert should be close to the same loot logically while T5 should be a huge loot boost. Wasteland being a big boost makes sense but not as huge as it is in the game. It's completely out of proportion to actual difficulty.

 

Yeah, as if T5 was difficult for an experienced player. Building inaccesible spots, blocking doorways, and especially knowing what to expect, make a T5 as manageable as desert or snow

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[ElDudorino]

51 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I assume you didn't increase gamma, changed brightness or contrast on your monitor or turned off shadows completely, right? If either of that is the case it isn't really TFPs fault that you can see so well in these biomes. If not, it is difficult to see how that could be improved, except maybe make animals somewhat transparent to simulate stealth

 

Default settings, pine forest is just way darker. They didn't have to make forest the supposed 'easy' biome, you know. It has the worst visibility and is a logical place to see more wildlife so I would have seen it as the 'hard' biome under the wasteland.

 

51 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I'm sure there will be a journal entry eventually that tells scavengers of more dangerous biomes. But other biomes have more dangerous zombies

 

They kind of don't. The only differences in snow are that lumberjacks are more common (not an issue) and technically you're more likely to find ferals specifically in the 'downtown' sub-biome but that doesn't affect the other 90% of the snow biome. Other games like the ones you alluded to have much clearer difficulty levels per zone. In 7DtD I literally would not have known winter is a supposed 'harder' biome than the desert if I wasn't told.

 

51 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Yeah, as if T5 was difficult for an experienced player. Building inaccesible spots, blocking doorways, and especially knowing what to expect, make a T5 as manageable as desert or snow

 

I'm at least an intermediate player and I wouldn't tackle a T5 on day 1 without some significant preparation but I have absolutely gone to the snow first thing on day 1 with no issue. Yes there's a skill/experience level where T5s become trivial, maybe even one where wasteland nights become trivial, but any game is going to be tuned for the average player and not for a pro. And for the average player a trip through a few low-tier PoIs in the snow is going to be way easier (and faster) than a single T5 in the pine forest, yet the low-tiers in the snow will give better rewards. That's a balance issue.

 

But anyway, one of my main points is that the bonus for changing biomes is too major, not that it shouldn't exist. I think the mechanic itself is salvageable but all of the numbers need changing.

Edited November 22, 2022 by ElDudorino (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, ElDudorino said:

 

Default settings, pine forest is just way darker. They didn't have to make forest the supposed 'easy' biome, you know. It has the worst visibility and is a logical place to see more wildlife so I would have seen it as the 'hard' biome under the wasteland.

 

Agreed. But the climate is naturally positioning winter and desert biome as harder in the survival genre. It just needs to be turned on eventually, i.e. a real downside to being cold or hot. Lets see, if water isn't that readily available it may already get harder in A21 to survive there.

 

1 hour ago, ElDudorino said:

 

 

They kind of don't. The only differences in snow are that lumberjacks are more common (not an issue) and technically you're more likely to find ferals specifically in the 'downtown' sub-biome but that doesn't affect the other 90% of the snow biome. Other games like the ones you alluded to have much clearer difficulty levels per zone. In 7DtD I literally would not have known winter is a supposed 'harder' biome than the desert if I wasn't told.

 

Yes, 7D2D always had the problem that difficulty of zombies is rather uneven. Any zombie walker can't compare to even the lowest running zombie. So increase in difficulty is marginal for experienced players if we are talking about a few more hitpoints and damage of a zombie. Once you can actually get a feral in the mix the danger is perceptibly increased, but I don't know if that happens in the other biomes in the first days. And naturally a small chance might not even occur when you try to test it.

 

Vanilla is mainly balanced for novice players and for them a feral is a huge danger and so is the wildlife. For them even zombies with more hitpoints and damage are a danger because without hundreds of arrows they need to melee as well and novices usually do get hit quite more often than experienced players.

 

1 hour ago, ElDudorino said:

I'm at least an intermediate player and I wouldn't tackle a T5 on day 1 without some significant preparation but I have absolutely gone to the snow first thing on day 1 with no issue. Yes there's a skill/experience level where T5s become trivial, maybe even one where wasteland nights become trivial, but any game is going to be tuned for the average player and not for a pro. And for the average player a trip through a few low-tier PoIs in the snow is going to be way easier (and faster) than a single T5 in the pine forest, yet the low-tiers in the snow will give better rewards. That's a balance issue.

 

Buildings in forest biome are usually much closer so you can always reach them easier and try to clear rooms until your arrows are depleted. Mostly it is the end room that presents a danger in a tier5 and I would agree that that end room might then have better loot but not the whole building. There are also some trap rooms and auto-trigger rooms where suddenly a group of zombies emerge but you can find such rooms in all tiers starting at tier2 I think

 

 

1 hour ago, ElDudorino said:

 

But anyway, one of my main points is that the bonus for changing biomes is too major, not that it shouldn't exist. I think the mechanic itself is salvageable but all of the numbers need changing.

 

Can't really comment on that as I didn't try it recently.

I'd say if you easily find tier2 weapons of a quality above 2 in the first 3 days then you probably are right (for A20). I would have suggested a balancing bug report but at this time that would be useless as A21 is near and might be different. Especially because it is possible that they removed the overlap of lower quality (and tier?) weapons being better than higher quality (and tier?). So play A21 once it is out and if the issue persists do a bug report.

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Morloc]

Mentioning it in the loading tips wouldn't hurt.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc